Find of a lifetime?!?! I could REALLY use help from the experts
#51
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@b_dub
That seat stay is of almost no concern unless you plan on hammering on this for hours on end non stop.
A good frame builder should be able to straighten that out very easily.
That seat stay is of almost no concern unless you plan on hammering on this for hours on end non stop.
A good frame builder should be able to straighten that out very easily.
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...which features are hidden ? Of course, from here, I cannot see them, but it does appear to be a pretty straightforward frame assembly, with lugless fillet brazing a the joints, and there doesn't appear to be much detail in the fork crown or the rear dropouts. Again, I'm tellling you this as a favor, removing PC from an entire frame and fork like that is probably better accomplished by someone with a media blast operation.
The strippers that will work are relatively high in toxicity, and in my own life, I kind of draw the line somewhere before those. But I'm happy you are happy with it.
The strippers that will work are relatively high in toxicity, and in my own life, I kind of draw the line somewhere before those. But I'm happy you are happy with it.
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I have one and despite thinking I understand something about the way it works, I have had very little luck with it. Pretty sure they quit making it for fairly good reason like screwing frames up so it couldn't fix them in the wrong hands.
I need to revisit when I have time to really think the process through, it seems fairly straightforward but for me not so much, yet.
I need to revisit when I have time to really think the process through, it seems fairly straightforward but for me not so much, yet.
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If the original badge was metal it would have had tiny rivets securing it to the head tube. If you get a badge just glue it on - forget about the rivets. The color in the numeral seven in the serial # suggests blue was the original color - but it is immaterial now. Don't use those cotter pins again - perhaps the one on the right is ok (ex-Raleigh?) but the LHS one in the foto is cheap modern junk. Get some old pins and file them to suit. Folks on here have plenty of proper American pins.
The bent frame can be cold set by someone who knows what they are doing. Like someone said above - most will do it for nothing on such a vintage. It would take only a few minutes and would leave no marks.
I would suggest a flip-flop hub for the rear wheel. One side fixed and other side free-wheel.
Your bike originally had front rear brakes - suggests it was not a pure track bike so a more street friendly setup would be true in kind. Put brakes on it - no brakes is illegal in most places outside of the US (despite what folks insist otherwise) and your bike originally had front and back.
The bent frame can be cold set by someone who knows what they are doing. Like someone said above - most will do it for nothing on such a vintage. It would take only a few minutes and would leave no marks.
I would suggest a flip-flop hub for the rear wheel. One side fixed and other side free-wheel.
Your bike originally had front rear brakes - suggests it was not a pure track bike so a more street friendly setup would be true in kind. Put brakes on it - no brakes is illegal in most places outside of the US (despite what folks insist otherwise) and your bike originally had front and back.
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This is the Superior Badge I hope I can locate and provide.
I also mentioned earlier, that I have the wheels to this Superior which has a SA AW dated '49.
But I completely forget what the front hub is, but I believe it is original. The wheels are the Schwinn odd sized 26 X 1 3/8. 597mm (not 590mm), IIRC. Let me know if these are of interest. I know you mentioned wanting to ride it as a fixie/track, but these wheels would provide an alternative. I passed the brake calipers and levers along to someone a few years back.
I also mentioned earlier, that I have the wheels to this Superior which has a SA AW dated '49.
But I completely forget what the front hub is, but I believe it is original. The wheels are the Schwinn odd sized 26 X 1 3/8. 597mm (not 590mm), IIRC. Let me know if these are of interest. I know you mentioned wanting to ride it as a fixie/track, but these wheels would provide an alternative. I passed the brake calipers and levers along to someone a few years back.
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As Johno59, said, make sure to put brakes on it. At least a front brake. I ride fixed pretty often and trust me, you'll need a front brake. Some don't use a rear brake on fixed gear bikes, but I always have. Yes, you can slow down by adding back pressure, but a brake still helps.
I do like to ride and see if I can complete my trip without using brakes at all. Many times I've been successful in doing just that. But I would never be without them.
I do like to ride and see if I can complete my trip without using brakes at all. Many times I've been successful in doing just that. But I would never be without them.
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This is the Superior Badge I hope I can locate and provide.
I also mentioned earlier, that I have the wheels to this Superior which has a SA AW dated '49.
But I completely forget what the front hub is, but I believe it is original. The wheels are the Schwinn odd sized 26 X 1 3/8. 597mm (not 590mm), IIRC. Let me know if these are of interest. I know you mentioned wanting to ride it as a fixie/track, but these wheels would provide an alternative. I passed the brake calipers and levers along to someone a few years back.
I also mentioned earlier, that I have the wheels to this Superior which has a SA AW dated '49.
But I completely forget what the front hub is, but I believe it is original. The wheels are the Schwinn odd sized 26 X 1 3/8. 597mm (not 590mm), IIRC. Let me know if these are of interest. I know you mentioned wanting to ride it as a fixie/track, but these wheels would provide an alternative. I passed the brake calipers and levers along to someone a few years back.
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As Johno59, said, make sure to put brakes on it. At least a front brake. I ride fixed pretty often and trust me, you'll need a front brake. Some don't use a rear brake on fixed gear bikes, but I always have. Yes, you can slow down by adding back pressure, but a brake still helps.
I do like to ride and see if I can complete my trip without using brakes at all. Many times I've been successful in doing just that. But I would never be without them.
I do like to ride and see if I can complete my trip without using brakes at all. Many times I've been successful in doing just that. But I would never be without them.
In all seriousness I will want to add / install front and rear brakes.
This might be as a 3 speed or fixed.
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Brakeless is for track-only in my opinion, but there are some passionate fixed-gear riders who strongly disagree.
Good luck!
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Update: I was able to swing by the storage unit yesterday on the way home from church. I immediately found the wheelset. The front hub is marked "Schwinn" and appears to be aluminum. However, I couldn't spot the frame. I have another unit and it might be there. I hope to stop there after a funeral service on Saturday.
Mrs. PB and I downsized last fall, and 95% of my bike stuff went into storage rather quickly. So patience will be key in locating the head badge.
Mrs. PB and I downsized last fall, and 95% of my bike stuff went into storage rather quickly. So patience will be key in locating the head badge.
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Update: I was able to swing by the storage unit yesterday on the way home from church. I immediately found the wheelset. The front hub is marked "Schwinn" and appears to be aluminum. However, I couldn't spot the frame. I have another unit and it might be there. I hope to stop there after a funeral service on Saturday.
Mrs. PB and I downsized last fall, and 95% of my bike stuff went into storage rather quickly. So patience will be key in locating the head badge.
Mrs. PB and I downsized last fall, and 95% of my bike stuff went into storage rather quickly. So patience will be key in locating the head badge.
I’m always humbled by the generosity of this community.
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#63
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So it's possible someone did that intentionally, in order to level out the dropouts on a frame that was manufactured originally slightly cattywhumpus in that regard. It's also possible that it's just some damage that happened over the years. You need to at least install a properly dished and trued rear wheel in the drops to see where the rim and tyre run in relation to the centerline of the frame, before you make any decisions about straightening it. Any bending of that stay (which is not difficult to do, given the proper tools) ought to be based on the wheel alignment to the theoretical center plane of the bike, so it will ride well.
No, it's not dangerous to ride it as is, and might in fact be preferable. Can't tell right now in the current state.
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If you're a heavy rider it needs to be straightened ASAP.
You don't know how rusted the bike was before they gave it a good solid coat of protective paint.
If you hit a real nasty pot hole it could fold on you.
Get it straightened by some old timer it won't take long - a few minutes.
One thing for sure it will not get better with use and there is every reason it will most likely get worse.
If you don't intend to ride it then it doesn't matter.
There are some very knowledgeable frame builders on this forum. They can give you the real skinny on what to do.
You don't know how rusted the bike was before they gave it a good solid coat of protective paint.
If you hit a real nasty pot hole it could fold on you.
Get it straightened by some old timer it won't take long - a few minutes.
One thing for sure it will not get better with use and there is every reason it will most likely get worse.
If you don't intend to ride it then it doesn't matter.
There are some very knowledgeable frame builders on this forum. They can give you the real skinny on what to do.
Last edited by Johno59; 05-07-21 at 11:47 AM.
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...I'm not sure why you feel this way, but I'm sure you have good intentions. I am a heavy rider. I also have quite a bit of experience working on and aligning old frames.
Not sure what you see in that photo that I do not. Unless there's some kind of crease in that stay that is not visible (in which case straightening becomes more problematic), I'd have no trouble building and riding it...if the rear wheel, as stated above centers in the rear triangle as the frame now sits.
...if rust is the issue, straightening that stay will not make it any safer. Sorry, but it just won't.
...I am one of these hypothetical "old timers". Once more, sometimes a frame gets built and brazed up in such a way that the rear dropouts are a little off, because the stay lengths are a little bit asymmetrical. This results in a frame that will not allow you to get a level, well centered positioning for a properly dished and true rear wheel. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. One of the ways to remedy that is to put a slight bend in one seat stay (making it a little bit "shorter"..thus raising up that dropout just a smidge. Another way is to file the dropout face to allow that side of the wheel to rise in position in the dropout. But that means the slot is wider, so your wheel attachment is slightly less secure.)
None of these are ideal, and it's quite possible that this frame just got pushed in and bent there over its long lifetime.
But since it is possible this presents this way for a functional reason, it ought to be approached in an analytical fashion, with a proper wheel inserted to give you some idea what's going on as you work on it. There's a related phenomenon that happens with forks, where one leg is a little longer than the other. The best correction (although not the easiest one), is to re-arc one of the fork legs over a form, to make it effectively shorter than it is when arced equally.
Honestly, I'm not making this up.
Not sure what you see in that photo that I do not. Unless there's some kind of crease in that stay that is not visible (in which case straightening becomes more problematic), I'd have no trouble building and riding it...if the rear wheel, as stated above centers in the rear triangle as the frame now sits.
If you hit a real nasty pot hole it could fold on you.
Get it straightened by some old timer it won't take long - a few minutes.
One thing for sure it will not get better with use and there is every reason it will most likely get worse.
If you don't intend to ride it then it doesn't matter.
There are some very knowledgeable frame builders on this forum. They can give you the real skinny on what to do.
Get it straightened by some old timer it won't take long - a few minutes.
One thing for sure it will not get better with use and there is every reason it will most likely get worse.
If you don't intend to ride it then it doesn't matter.
There are some very knowledgeable frame builders on this forum. They can give you the real skinny on what to do.
None of these are ideal, and it's quite possible that this frame just got pushed in and bent there over its long lifetime.
But since it is possible this presents this way for a functional reason, it ought to be approached in an analytical fashion, with a proper wheel inserted to give you some idea what's going on as you work on it. There's a related phenomenon that happens with forks, where one leg is a little longer than the other. The best correction (although not the easiest one), is to re-arc one of the fork legs over a form, to make it effectively shorter than it is when arced equally.
Honestly, I'm not making this up.
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#66
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#67
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Finding a wheel that is true enough to show up a 1mm discrepancy whilst sitting in a near hundred year old horizontal dropout strikes me as a can of worms. I would have thought a straight edge across the bottom of the dropouts and the BB shell would tell you how true the frame was. Gently hold it against a glass door and see if there is a gap under the bent seat stay dropout, maybe two spirit levels/straight edges. A lathe bed would be better but not as common-place.
I have always assumed the straightness of mild steel connecting the top of the seat tube to the rear axle was critical to the seat staying where it was. So if you bend the seat stay to correct wheel alignment, do you then bend the chain stay as well?
Every days a school day.
I have always assumed the straightness of mild steel connecting the top of the seat tube to the rear axle was critical to the seat staying where it was. So if you bend the seat stay to correct wheel alignment, do you then bend the chain stay as well?
Every days a school day.
Last edited by Johno59; 05-08-21 at 02:28 AM.
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Yes, on rare occasions, a frame may be built with the dropouts in the wrong plane to each other. But people file the top of the dropout to fix this, they don't kick in the frame tubing.
At any rate, I don't buy into all the conjecture that the frame was bent on purpose. Poppycock. I've had to straighten three frames ('61 Paramount, '52 Raleigh, 1960's Bottecchia) with damage in the same area, so not only is it common, perhaps there's a pattern that leads to the left side stays being more likely to take a whack.
Even if it was the case, I'd still straighten the tube, check the frame for alignment, cold-set the rear triangle if necessary, and then stuff a pair of these dropout alignment tools into the track ends to make sure they're square with each other.
Then, and ONLY THEN would I install a rear wheel and look for misalignment. My bet is that I'd find absolutely no problem.
Even if it turned out - after re-verifying every last alignment measurement for accuracy - that one dropout really IS lower than another, I'd file the top of the lower dropout.
A happy ending, no matter how one slices it.
-Kurt
At any rate, I don't buy into all the conjecture that the frame was bent on purpose. Poppycock. I've had to straighten three frames ('61 Paramount, '52 Raleigh, 1960's Bottecchia) with damage in the same area, so not only is it common, perhaps there's a pattern that leads to the left side stays being more likely to take a whack.
Even if it was the case, I'd still straighten the tube, check the frame for alignment, cold-set the rear triangle if necessary, and then stuff a pair of these dropout alignment tools into the track ends to make sure they're square with each other.
Then, and ONLY THEN would I install a rear wheel and look for misalignment. My bet is that I'd find absolutely no problem.
Even if it turned out - after re-verifying every last alignment measurement for accuracy - that one dropout really IS lower than another, I'd file the top of the lower dropout.
A happy ending, no matter how one slices it.
-Kurt
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#69
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I have to admit I feel slightly overwhelmed with the options and suggestions offered. Don’t get me wrong I really appreciate it though. I’ll have to think about it.
Then again this is not one of my commuter frames that can’t be out of commission for too long.
Also it’s impossible to verify at this point but according to the previous owner the bike was used for track racing, therefore, damage like this makes total sense.
Then again this is not one of my commuter frames that can’t be out of commission for too long.
Also it’s impossible to verify at this point but according to the previous owner the bike was used for track racing, therefore, damage like this makes total sense.
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I have to admit I feel slightly overwhelmed with the options and suggestions offered. Don’t get me wrong I really appreciate it though. I’ll have to think about it.
Then again this is not one of my commuter frames that can’t be out of commission for too long.
Also it’s impossible to verify at this point but according to the previous owner the bike was used for track racing, therefore, damage like this makes total sense.
Then again this is not one of my commuter frames that can’t be out of commission for too long.
Also it’s impossible to verify at this point but according to the previous owner the bike was used for track racing, therefore, damage like this makes total sense.
-Kurt
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@big chainring said to visit George Garner. Do so. All you have to lose is a few bucks for them to make it right.
-Kurt
-Kurt
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Good show. Just be a bit wary if anyone pulls out the Park FFS-1 specifically for the stay straightening instead of the SS-1. The FFS-1 is good for pulling the chainstays left and right, but it isn't the right tool to take an S bend out of a chainstay.
-Kurt
-Kurt
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I called them. I’m going to swing by on Monday and we’ll see what happens. Thank you Kurt!
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FYI, if they won't touch it or can't do it correctly, and if you're willing to cover the shipping to and back, I'd be more than happy to do the straightening for you. If you feel comfortable with that, of course.
-Kurt
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Really? Hmmm, that’s a possible option too. TBC.
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