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Swiss or English threads on this bottom bracket from an 1984 Peugeot PH11?

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Swiss or English threads on this bottom bracket from an 1984 Peugeot PH11?

Old 04-16-20, 10:01 AM
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Swiss or English threads on this bottom bracket from an 1984 Peugeot PH11?

Hello!

I'm trying to fix up a Peugeot PH11 from 1984, and I've managed to get off the bottom bracket but I can't figure out if it is Swiss or English threads (the fixed cup was LH threaded, so it should not be French). Apparently sometime around 1984/1985 Peugeot stopped putting Swiss threads into their bikes, so need to figure out what it is because one of the races is damaged. I have no British/ISO threaded bottom bracket to test with. Hoping that someone might have some clues from looking at these photos .

Some photos:

The cups. I've heard Swiss cups can have a ring around the circumference of the fixed cup, this one has a ring on the side, but not around the circumference. Not sure if that gives any clues?

Damaged bearing race

Marked "B S"

Marked "1 18"

Marked "Stronglight 118 Made in France"

The bike in question!

Last edited by gustav531; 04-16-20 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 04-16-20, 10:29 AM
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Do you have vernier calipers to measure the thread O.D.?
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Old 04-16-20, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Hudson308
Do you have vernier calipers to measure the thread O.D.?
I don't have one, but maybe its time to get one.. How would I use it? What is thread O.D?
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Old 04-16-20, 11:05 AM
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good info here on bottom brackets and threading might help you.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribshe...mbrackets.html
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Old 04-16-20, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by gustav531
I don't have one, but maybe its time to get one.. How would I use it? What is thread O.D?
OK, do you have access to another frame with an English bottom bracket shell that you can test-fit your cups into?
Or conversely, do you have access to any English bottom bracket cups that you can test-fit into your frame?
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Old 04-16-20, 11:14 AM
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Probably British and probably the headset to. Pull the stem, if its stamped 22.2 its British, 22.0 its French. See the ring around the circumference of the headset top nut? Probably British. Most Swiss cups were gold/yellowish in color.
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Old 04-16-20, 11:17 AM
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Do you have a freewheel that you know to be English thread? If so, you can thread the non-drive side cup into it to check the thread pitch.

From Sheldon:

"A bottom-bracket cup can serve as a thread gauge for a freewheel: Dimensions are usually marked on cups. Hold the threads of the bottom-bracket cup against those of the hub, and look in between, against the light. If the threads engage tightly all the way across, the thread pitch is the same. If they rock across each other, it is different. You may check the thread pitch of a freewheel by threading an ISO left bottom-bracket cup into it (not a right cup, which is left-threaded). The cup will go in easily if the thread pitch is the same -- but do have a freewheel extractor tool handy so you can unscrew the cup."
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Old 04-16-20, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by noobinsf
Do you have a freewheel that you know to be English thread? If so, you can thread the non-drive side cup into it to check the thread pitch.

From Sheldon:

"A bottom-bracket cup can serve as a thread gauge for a freewheel: Dimensions are usually marked on cups. Hold the threads of the bottom-bracket cup against those of the hub, and look in between, against the light. If the threads engage tightly all the way across, the thread pitch is the same. If they rock across each other, it is different. You may check the thread pitch of a freewheel by threading an ISO left bottom-bracket cup into it (not a right cup, which is left-threaded). The cup will go in easily if the thread pitch is the same -- but do have a freewheel extractor tool handy so you can unscrew the cup."

Edited for clarity.

Last edited by miamijim; 04-16-20 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 04-16-20, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudson308
OK, do you have access to another frame with an English bottom bracket shell that you can test-fit your cups into?
Or conversely, do you have access to any English bottom bracket cups that you can test-fit into your frame?
Afraid not.

Originally Posted by miamijim
Probably British and probably the headset to. Pull the stem, if its stamped 22.2 its British, 22.0 its French. See the ring around the circumference of the headset top nut? Probably British. Most Swiss cups were gold/yellowish in color.
I really hope it is British. Pulled the stem and it is only stamped "NI INSERT 05 984", not too many clues there. Close up of headset if it gives you any clues:



Originally Posted by noobinsf
Do you have a freewheel that you know to be English thread? If so, you can thread the non-drive side cup into it to check the thread pitch.

From Sheldon:

"A bottom-bracket cup can serve as a thread gauge for a freewheel: Dimensions are usually marked on cups. Hold the threads of the bottom-bracket cup against those of the hub, and look in between, against the light. If the threads engage tightly all the way across, the thread pitch is the same. If they rock across each other, it is different. You may check the thread pitch of a freewheel by threading an ISO left bottom-bracket cup into it (not a right cup, which is left-threaded). The cup will go in easily if the thread pitch is the same -- but do have a freewheel extractor tool handy so you can unscrew the cup."
Nope, no freewheel available, but great idea
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Old 04-16-20, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by miamijim
Swiss and British are so close you may not be able to tell/feel the difference.
Really? Or are you thinking "Italian and British are so close..."?

I can use a standard freewheel on an Italian threaded hub, but I can't do the same with a French threaded freewheel.

From what I understand, on the adjustable bb cup, Swiss is the same threading as French.
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Old 04-16-20, 01:46 PM
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If I find out the stem is British (22.2 mm), can I be fairly certain that I have British threads in the BB?
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Old 04-16-20, 02:13 PM
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The problem might be how you interpret the measurement of the stem quill, since there is only a .2mm difference, a stem can measure 22.0mm in diameter and be intended as English (or as small as 21.8mm if French).

A front or rear axle can almost always be used as a 1mm-pitch thread gauge, as long as it isn't made by Campagnolo or is solid (vs. hollow).
Japanese, French and even most Italian axles have 1mm thread pitch (25.4 TPI).

I don't think it is out of the question to use a good metal ruler to check thread pitch, 1mm pitch should be spot-on with your metric ruler if you have good eyesight.
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Old 04-16-20, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
Really? Or are you thinking "Italian and British are so close..."?

I can use a standard freewheel on an Italian threaded hub, but I can't do the same with a French threaded freewheel.

From what I understand, on the adjustable bb cup, Swiss is the same threading as French.
I guess I mixed things up. Regardless, if the fixed cup is 'left' hand thread its British or Swiss. In this particular instance its British.
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Old 04-16-20, 02:29 PM
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Hmm. Post #18 in this thread has a Sutherland's reference for Stronglight BB's, and according to that reference, your fixed cup should be Italian, which is right-hand thread (one ring, two flats). ********************???

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...nch-swiss.html
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Old 04-16-20, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by miamijim
the fixed cup is ... British.
How did you determine that? The bike's year?
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Old 04-16-20, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by noobinsf
Hmm. Post #18 in this thread has a Sutherland's reference for Stronglight BB's, and according to that reference, your fixed cup should be Italian, which is right-hand thread (one ring, two flats). ********************???

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...nch-swiss.html
Sutherlands is not all encompassing. Neither is Sheldon.


Originally Posted by SurferRosa
How did you determine that? The bike's year?
Year, ring on cup and its not yellow/gold-ish
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Old 04-16-20, 06:24 PM
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If it's British, it's 24 tpi. If Swiss, 1mm or 25.4 tpi. You can check for British thread as described above with a British threaded hub. Likewise, you can check for 1mm thread with anything you know to be 1mm. If your hub is a French threaded freewheel hub, you can check the left cup against it -- match, it's Swiss, no match it's British. Or a hub axle which should be 1 mm thread, unless it's Campagnolo in which case it's probably 26 tpi so it won't work. Because 24 tpi and 1 mm thread are pretty close, you might get a better test result with a known metric axle so you can more easily get a good line of sight to the meshing of the threads.

Long term solution for such questions -- get a thread gauge set. They're cheap, don't take up much space in you're tool box, and are loads of fun.
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Old 04-17-20, 04:55 AM
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The bike looks quite similar to my 1985 Premiere - the bottom bracket and stem on that are British.

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Old 04-17-20, 10:15 AM
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I went and got myself a thread gauge and the thread is 1mm, i.e. Swiss, which sucks a little bit. Not too keen on dropping big dollars on a threadless bottom bracket.

Thanks for all the help in figuring this out, much appreciated.
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Old 04-17-20, 01:40 PM
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Does your rear wheel have a cassette hub or a thread-on freewheel? If it has a freewheel, remove it. Thread the bottom bracket lockring onto the hub. If it fits, it's English, because I bet your rear hub is English-threaded.
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Old 04-19-20, 11:35 AM
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1978 was the last year that North America got Peugeots made in France. your frame was made in Canada and has
English threads. Ive never heard of a Peugeot using Swiss threads, that was a Motobecane thing
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Old 04-19-20, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by steve sumner
1978 was the last year that North America got Peugeots made in France. your frame was made in Canada and has
English threads. Ive never heard of a Peugeot using Swiss threads, that was a Motobecane thing
I don't think that's right. I was a shop mechanic from 1978-1984, and I distinctly remember in 1981 unwrapping Peugeot boxes from France. In one of those boxes, a factory worker had tossed an empty box of French Gitanes cigarettes, and I kept it as a souvenir for a while.
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Old 04-19-20, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by steve sumner
1978 was the last year that North America got Peugeots made in France. your frame was made in Canada and has
English threads. Ive never heard of a Peugeot using Swiss threads, that was a Motobecane thing
Note the "Made in France" text (toward the rear of the toptube) on my 1984 Peugeot PH501 below.

Also, my 1979 Peugeot PX10E Super Competition has Swiss threads (confirmed), also made in France.


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Old 04-19-20, 05:36 PM
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a Canadian company named ProCycle got the license to build Peugeots for the US market. Our shop was a Peugeot dealer
at the time. One year the frames were trad. lugged construction and the next year they were all lugless. The shipping boxes
still said made in France and there were made in France stickers on the bikes but there was a lot of shenanagans going on
in the early 80s. I remember Raleigh USA bringing in front and rear triangles made in Taiwan separately as bike parts, then tacking them
together in Washington and being able to slap made in USA stickers on them!
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