livedarklions

This is now the 8-track tape of threads.

philbob57

My son, an LP buyer, was born in 1972. Anybody born in the '70s could have a kid with disposable income, and some of those are LP buyers. BTW, my son was not even a twinkle in my eye during the '60s.

Sure, streaming dwarfs LP sales and probably always will. So what? I simply claimed that the business is profitable and that the technology is neither dead nor obsolete. Comparing revenue between LPs and streaming is neither here nor there.

Wissahickon2

canti brakes forever!

Kapusta

Sure, but in THEIR case, the "re-enactor" comment WOULD apply. That was the part of the discussion I assumed you were responding to. I guess I misunderstood your point.

I think some folks are confusing how big the overall sales are with how profitable they are. Not the same thing. I think this is what you are eluding to.

Something about being couped up inside made me pull out some old vinyl the other night, something I rarely do. Something about a completely analog experience (the system is all old analog stuff) felt comforting. But I gotta be honest, I think loss-less digital through even a $100 DAC sounds better than anything but the most well preserved LPs with a killer stylus.

Also, as far as new music goes, it makes little sense to me to buy something on vinyl that was recorded, processed, and mastered digitally.

So to bring this back to Rivendell.... I see the appeal of an older vintage bike (they are not my thing, but I do love vintage cars for what I assume is a similar reason). But I don't see the point in continuing to build new identical ones. Keep the parts that still make sense (the geo, the wide tires, the utility, the looks, whatever) but don't use an inferior technology just because it is older. There is no way I would spend big bucks on a bike with a quill stem. And disc makes a ton of sense for a lot of applications. Rivendell (or at least Grant himself) had a big influence on my thinking 10 years ago when I realized I was very unhappy with the road bikes I was riding and what was being pushed. Since then I have been riding very Rivendell-ish bikes, but with more modern standards.

I think the bind Rivendell is in is that if they accept more modern standards, they lose much of what differentiates them from the rest and they lose their retro-grouch cred.

livedarklions

Good April Fool's ad idea if anyone wants it--a phonograph attachment to a Rivendell bike.

philbob57

Not a big problem. Consider this, though - my GS is 10, and he listens 90% to LPs, because that's what his Dad plays. I listened to LPs almost exclusively until the late '80s, when my son was in HS. So maybe no re-enacting - LPs are integral parts of their lives.

I'm not sure I see much point in putting out an LP of something that was recorded digitally. I'm not really current on new music, since my hearing problems keep me from enjoying recorded music, but my understanding is that there's still analog recording. When I could hear well, until 15 years ago, I preferred LP to CD. Analog is different from digital, with different strengths and weaknesses. Anyone turned off by analog's weaknesses will prefer digital, and vice versa. Different strokes for different folks....

bargo68 

I just finished reading this entire thread and while quite interesting, excepting the rim vs. disc brake and 1" threaded vs. 1 1/8 threadless diversions, I'm left wondering about a few things.
I'm curious about two data points that will never be obtainable:
1) how many people bought a Riv because they liked the IDEA of having a Riv vis a vis the marketing and the existing subculture surrounding the company and Grant Petersen.
2) how many of those same Rivs wound up on the used market and how long did it take to get there.

Also, before this thread gets jacked by the "audiophile" LP vs CD or analog vs. digital thing, y'all should go here: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv

Steve B.

I'd guess every buyer. They were/are very expensive for what you get and with a bit of research you discovered you could get 90% of the function for 50% of the price, Heron bikes being an example.

skookum

Grant must be getting to the point that he wants to get rid of the business, lord knows they've flirted with insolvency for years. Maybe the coronavirus recession will finish them as it will many small businesses. I expect a lot of glee from bike forums when they go finally go under, there are a certain number of people here, who really don't like them and are quick to criticize them.
I have a couple Riv bikes, that I love dearly and ride often, I have more modern bikes with things like disc brakes and modern headsets that I also think are fine bikes.

Good luck to them, in all their quirkiness, and good riding to every body.

I totally cannot see the appeal of LPs, in this day and age, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

L134 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bargo68 View Post
1) how many people bought a Riv because they liked the IDEA of having a Riv vis a vis the marketing and the existing subculture surrounding the company and Grant Petersen.

Not me. Several years ago I saw an Atlantis chained to a parking meter in LA. It pushed every button for me and I took a picture of it. I had no idea it was a Rivendell or that there was any subculture (not that i deny the existence of said subculture). When my Trek 720 was stolen about 3 years ago, I went looking for a replacement. An Atlantis was my first choice. I found and bought a used one. I’ve since put over 6,000 miles on it including two one week tours on sections of the GDMBR. It has done all I expected and I don’t see that I will ever sell it. I know full well I could get 90% of what I wanted for less but I wanted 100%, not 90%. No regrets. Their current lineup doesn’t push buttons for me but that is not really of any concern to me.

skookum

I love my Atlantis. What sections of the GDMBR did you use it on? I've done the divide -not on my Atlantis - and I thought it would be well suited for some portions of it. Definitely not for northern New Mexico.

L134 

Banff to Whitefish and then Helena to Whitefish.

Hiro11

Interesting that this thread is still carrying on. As I said earlier, Rivendell is by any measure a tiny brand that sells few bikes but it appears that they inspire strong feelings regardless.

Personally, I appreciate the qualities of a steel frame. I have two steel gravel bikes myself, one single speed, the other 1x geared. I can see Grant's points on the durability, toughness, safety and good ride qualities of a steel frame. On the other hand, I don't buy in to some of Grant's other, more Luddite philosophies on other frame materials, indexing, clipless, disc brakes, tubeless, Hollowtech 2, threadless headsets, 1x etc. I like all of those technologies personally. As a result, I also have a couple modern trail bikes, a fatbike, a Ti road bike and a new carbon road bike with Di2. I can appreciate all of these bikes. I would personally love to add a 3x8 Atlantis or AHH fully kitted with Nitto racks, fenders, a Brooks saddle, leather trimmed bags and mustache bars to my collection. I can see the appeal of that kind of bike. I just don't think that kind of bike is the end-all-be-all.

L134 

Why not N New Mexico? My recollections from readings is that the major challenges of New Mexico were goatheads and water.

skookum

Water turned out to be no problem at all, lots of stock tanks and friendly locals. Tubeless takes care of goat heads.

Horrible mud when it rains, wider tires are somewhat better but the mud is so sticky you can't even push your bike. Sandy washes are easier with wider floatier tires.The volcanic rock erodes into big chunks and steps and babyheads and it really helps to have really wide tires and a stable frame geometry. My Jones Plus with 3 inch tires was okay, but even with it I walked it down some downhills. It was ridable but you just get so tired of trying to manoeuvre a loaded bike over it. It would have been pretty difficult on my Atlantis, lots of walking, but sure you could do it. I thought the Wyoming high desert would have been ideal for the Atlantis, mostly smooth dirt and sand.

How big were your tires on your Atlantis?

bargo68 

This is what I was curious about. I'm certain there are many others who feel as you do about having chosen a Riv. I have purchased accessories from their site and happily read their blog/blug/blahg online.
I've always wondered why GP doesn't make a line of less expensive TIG welded frames with a powdercoat and really tout the geometry and angles. Get people through the door with a 500-700 frameset ala Soma/Surly. Something along the lines of the San Marcos that he did with Soma but no lugs. Then of course keep developing the up market stuff in smaller batches. I guess that might be compromising his vision for Rivendell too much? Who knows.....

gorillimo

Pretty well what put me onto my Surly Cross Check. Riv had a Clem demo in my size for $1299. I kept hovering on the button, then this Surly showed up on craigslist. Mechanic owned, less than 350 documented miles. Upgraded Derailuers and shifters. $600. As much as I would like to have had the Riv, this is pretty well the same bike for way less than half. I buy what I can from Riv but I can only support it so far. And you know, the Surly really is a great bike. Outfitted with Brooks saddle, Carrridice bag.

Coming together nicely.

kingston 

While that's a great bike and probably the most versatile frame you can buy, nobody who rides a rivendell looks at that picture and wishes they bought a used crosscheck instead. It's like saying a rolex and a timex are pretty well the same watch.

gorillimo

I was looking at a Homer H , not a MUSA bike.
"The Clems are our less expensive but no less functional models. They ride just as well as our most expensive frames, but we've brought the cost down by: Tig welding most of the joints (see first sentence below)Having the completes assembled where they're made, in Taiwan".

skookum

I bought an Atlantis frame, lugged steel, made in Japan by Toyo, for $1000 in 2003. Current price is $1500 made in Taiwan.
Current CPI deflator $1000 in 2003 = $1423 now.
Not cheap, but not outrageous for a small production batch frame. My Tumbleweed prospector is $1450 - also Taiwan made.

Buy it and build it up any way you like, you will have a classic bike that will outlast you and turn heads. Mine still does.

Surlys are good frames. I often recommend them and would not hesitate to buy them if I had a use for one. The choice is yours.

RustyWrench

Actually, right here in the forum I see VO advertising Savon de Marseille Hard Milled Soap in 300g and 1kg and they have Rhodia dotted notepads =)

Happy Feet

Not a Riv but I'm slowly working on it.
A 92 KHS frame stripped and treated with gun bluing acid then clear coated. Still need to swap in some hammered fenders (copper if I can find them) and I'm leaning towards a small Wald basket instead of the HB bag.

TiHabanero

"I've always wondered why GP doesn't make a line of less expensive TIG welded frames with a powdercoat and really tout the geometry and angles. Get people through the door with a 500-700 frameset ala Soma/Surly. "

Volume. To get a frameset from a manufacturer down to that price one must commit to a large volume order. Add to that if one can sell the same frameset for twice the price, then one does not need that level of volume to remain profitable. Why work twice as hard when the same profitability can be had with less work?

If I go Riv, it has to be custom. They are nicely done frames and the paint is top of the line.

blakcloud

This is 100% me at the time I bought my Riv.

Then I started wanting other things that Riv wouldn't offer, which I have written about before. Now I own a custom bike that offers everything my Riv doesn't and I even bought a carbon fibre bike. Funny is I really appreciate my Rivendell more now. Now the Riv excels as my tooting around the city, weekend rides with my wife bike. I don't need disc brakes, or carbon fiber wheels for that. It gets ridden less but it is nice having different bikes for different purposes.

bargo68 

Nice! It still has a place in your collection and gets some love. I have to admit, there's a 55 cm Sam Hillborne frame on Craigslist that I'd love to try. I just need to be in a different tax bracket.