Zipp 303s versus Winspace Hyper Lun 45s
#51
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It’s even more encouraging when you consider most of the reviews are of the old, pre-2023 Hyper models. For 2023, Winspace instituted hub improvements based on critiques and further enhanced quality. For example, the axle is hard anodized for increased durability, the spoke head beds in the flange now prevent twisting of the spokes, and all spokes were realigned to be fully tangential to the hub flange, to resist wind-up.
#52
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Got my EliteWheels Drive 50D the other day and went on a ride over the weekend and man for $1000 shipped these are really great. I still think the 2023 Winspace Hypers are some of the best wheels for the money since they are stiffer and offer now US based shipping from NJ, but the Drive's while not as still are insanely light at 1290g. Not everyone will love the glossy finish, but the hybrid ceramic bearings and carbon spokes make for a great performing wheel.
I still can't get over why people love the Zipp 303S so much unless you are doing gravel. They are heavier, more expensive, require heavier and more expensive hook less tires, and optimally are best suited to be run tubeless which is more of hassle to setup and maintain. I am not a weight weenie but going with a Winspace or EliteWheel wheelset and using TPU tubes and a decent set of light tires gives you really everything you need in that they will be very light, fixable or replaceable on the go, and cheaper than the 303S setup tubeless
I still can't get over why people love the Zipp 303S so much unless you are doing gravel. They are heavier, more expensive, require heavier and more expensive hook less tires, and optimally are best suited to be run tubeless which is more of hassle to setup and maintain. I am not a weight weenie but going with a Winspace or EliteWheel wheelset and using TPU tubes and a decent set of light tires gives you really everything you need in that they will be very light, fixable or replaceable on the go, and cheaper than the 303S setup tubeless
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#53
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I've switched all three of my wheelsets to hookless. The narrowest I own is the 23mm zipp 303 and my two latest sets are 25mm IW BTLOS wheels that require no rim tape. The BTLOS wheels only cost $800 per set. I run 28mm tires at the zipp pressure calculator recommended 52/56 psi. These deliver a fantastic ride. No tubes for me.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 05-17-23 at 02:00 PM.
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There is no plastic in the Hyper hubs other than the plastic bearing seals which any hub using cartridge bearings has.
Hyper hub service is tool-less and almost too easy, as the freehub can be pulled off without much force at all, setting up a situation where pawls might get dropped and lost.
But to the matter of Hyper bearings, they’re standard, commonly available size spec, inexpensive, and quite easy to replace, so replace them as you like. Full ceramic? All steel? Fresh hybrid? What you want…
Lastly, the 303S (which is the wheelset the OP was asking about) uses a 3-pawl freehub system whereas the Hypers use 6-pawls at 60º apart. I don’t know the number of engagement teeth/points they each have, but the Hypers click more quickly when spun, so they have more rapid engagement.
Hyper hub service is tool-less and almost too easy, as the freehub can be pulled off without much force at all, setting up a situation where pawls might get dropped and lost.
But to the matter of Hyper bearings, they’re standard, commonly available size spec, inexpensive, and quite easy to replace, so replace them as you like. Full ceramic? All steel? Fresh hybrid? What you want…
Lastly, the 303S (which is the wheelset the OP was asking about) uses a 3-pawl freehub system whereas the Hypers use 6-pawls at 60º apart. I don’t know the number of engagement teeth/points they each have, but the Hypers click more quickly when spun, so they have more rapid engagement.
And Hyper should at least post a rudimentary manual with part numbers and how to obtain, for instance the proprietary spokes and nipples.
#55
should be more popular
In the case of 28mm GP5ks, clinchers with TPU are fuss free and come in at around 100g lighter per wheel once all the goo and hardware is calculated in with the heavier tyre.
I don't spend thousands on sub 1400g 45mm wheels just to add 200g back on, particularly when the 28mm clinchers measure 30mm on the rims and I can run them at an ideal for me 65-70 PSI with no issues anyway. Another factor was the messy flat I helped a friend with on the side of the road one day, the bike came set up tubeless (Giant does that, without even talking to their newbie customers about that) he was on clinchers the next day. I would love the extra potential safety of self-sealing, particularly for crazy descents, and I would not even care about the more involved setup, but I think the 200g issue tips the scales to date.
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Continential GP5000 28mm weight differential is 30 grams from tubed version to tubeless version. I used 75 gram latex tubes. Tubeless, I use 40 ml Silca goop.The tire system weighs the same. Hookless tubeless wheels typically weigh less. But the fact that tubeless setups weigh 200 grams less is irrelevant, half a pound has no meaningful impact on time
#57
should be more popular
Continential GP5000 28mm weight differential is 30 grams from tubed version to tubeless version. I used 75 gram latex tubes. Tubeless, I use 40 ml Silca goop.The tire system weighs the same. Hookless tubeless wheels typically weigh less. But the fact that tubeless setups weigh 200 grams less is irrelevant, half a pound has no meaningful impact on time
Last edited by yaw; 05-16-23 at 05:57 PM.
#58
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Continential GP5000 28mm weight differential is 30 grams from tubed version to tubeless version. I used 75 gram latex tubes. Tubeless, I use 40 ml Silca goop.The tire system weighs the same. Hookless tubeless wheels typically weigh less. But the fact that tubeless setups weigh 200 grams less is irrelevant, half a pound has no meaningful impact on time
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I think it’s kind of unfair to slam them for not publishing a service manual since they include 4 new spokes with complete nipple sets right in the package with the wheels. Yes it would be nice to have an explicit resource for that stuff, and if they don’t offer replacement bits that’d be bad, but it also strikes me that needing replacement bits is kind of rare and something the included spokes should easily cover.
#60
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I'm thinking seriously about the BTLOS carbon spoke wheel option, but with only 29mm deep rim for my windy mountain descents. 21 carbon spokes and 1205 grams with no rim tape required. 25mm IW hookless. Ready for Pirelli P-zero 28mm tubeless tires.
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For what it's worth - ETRTO guidelines now say 23mm is the max inner rim width that should be used for 28mm tires. On 25mm you'd need 29mm tire as a minimum (which in reality means a 30mm tire since I don't think anyone is making 29mm).
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...t-your-safety/
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...t-your-safety/
#63
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For what it's worth - ETRTO guidelines now say 23mm is the max inner rim width that should be used for 28mm tires. On 25mm you'd need 29mm tire as a minimum (which in reality means a 30mm tire since I don't think anyone is making 29mm).
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...t-your-safety/
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features...t-your-safety/
https://www.sram.com/en/zipp/campaig...-compatibility
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That may be true, but many brands allow the use of their 28mm tires on 25mm IW hookless rims. I have Michelins 28mm on two bikes with 25mm IW hookless rims. No problems.
https://www.sram.com/en/zipp/campaig...-compatibility
https://www.sram.com/en/zipp/campaig...-compatibility
It's also worth considering why ETRTO went through the trouble of updating the guidelines, specifically noting that ETRTO knew that the new guideless would be problematic for some of Zipp/Enve's products, yet they decided to push ahead with them anyways. Clearly ETRTO sees some potential problems with 28mm tires on 25mm ID rims.
#65
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I take the zipp rim chart as regurgitation of tire manufacturer info, not their testing. For example:
https://www.continental-tires.com/bi...prix-5000-s-tr
If in doubt, contact the tire manufacturer.
https://www.continental-tires.com/bi...prix-5000-s-tr
If in doubt, contact the tire manufacturer.
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I take the zipp rim chart as regurgitation of tire manufacturer info, not their testing. For example:
https://www.continental-tires.com/bi...prix-5000-s-tr
If in doubt, contact the tire manufacturer.
https://www.continental-tires.com/bi...prix-5000-s-tr
If in doubt, contact the tire manufacturer.
They interviewed Continental in that article as well, and they indicate that they agree with ETRTO on this topic (which seems to contradict the chart on the product page for the GP 5000).
ETRTO is just guidance. As far as I know there's no requirement for anyone to adhere to those guidelines. My point with mentioning all of this is just to highlight that 28mm tires on a 25mm hookless rim is pushing the limits (or beyond them if you listen to ETRTO) and this combo should be approached with caution.
Personally I'd be comfortable running a 28mm tire on a 25mm Zipp wheel in part because they state that they've tested this combo and it's safe. The other part of this is that I run a 28mm tire at 60psi, well below the 73psi limit. If I were pushing up against that 73psi limit and/or using a wheel brand that isn't offering similar assurances, I'd definitely be going with 30mm.
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#67
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The CyclingNews article I linked above discusses this. It says "Zipp is doing tests on each tyre and making a recommendation."
They interviewed Continental in that article as well, and they indicate that they agree with ETRTO on this topic (which seems to contradict the chart on the product page for the GP 5000).
ETRTO is just guidance. As far as I know there's no requirement for anyone to adhere to those guidelines. My point with mentioning all of this is just to highlight that 28mm tires on a 25mm hookless rim is pushing the limits (or beyond them if you listen to ETRTO) and this combo should be approached with caution.
Personally I'd be comfortable running a 28mm tire on a 25mm Zipp wheel in part because they state that they've tested this combo and it's safe. The other part of this is that I run a 28mm tire at 60psi, well below the 73psi limit. If I were pushing up against that 73psi limit and/or using a wheel brand that isn't offering similar assurances, I'd definitely be going with 30mm.
They interviewed Continental in that article as well, and they indicate that they agree with ETRTO on this topic (which seems to contradict the chart on the product page for the GP 5000).
ETRTO is just guidance. As far as I know there's no requirement for anyone to adhere to those guidelines. My point with mentioning all of this is just to highlight that 28mm tires on a 25mm hookless rim is pushing the limits (or beyond them if you listen to ETRTO) and this combo should be approached with caution.
Personally I'd be comfortable running a 28mm tire on a 25mm Zipp wheel in part because they state that they've tested this combo and it's safe. The other part of this is that I run a 28mm tire at 60psi, well below the 73psi limit. If I were pushing up against that 73psi limit and/or using a wheel brand that isn't offering similar assurances, I'd definitely be going with 30mm.
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GCN Performance on Youtube covered this and while I am no for hookless, it's important to remember these are just recommendations. However the recommended tire is now 29mm which just leaves ENVE tires? Or lik you mentioned, you can just jump up to 30mm tires. I have reiterated this countless times and that's hookless is fine but for gravel or MTB but just because "x" amount of people bought 303s doesn't mean your "average" cyclist gets hookless and you always run the risk of them over inflating and using the wrong tire
This conversation reminds me of the time a colleague of mine learned the hard way that the new (used) car they purchased had summer-only tires on it.
#69
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Speaking of the average cyclist - I wonder how often shops see bikes coming in with hookless rims, but the owner is running regular tubed clinchers on them? I assume this happens fairly often, especially as bikes/wheels get re-sold second hand. It's not a problem until it is.
This conversation reminds me of the time a colleague of mine learned the hard way that the new (used) car they purchased had summer-only tires on it.
This conversation reminds me of the time a colleague of mine learned the hard way that the new (used) car they purchased had summer-only tires on it.
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I bought the 2023 Hyper D45's rim brake version and have run them 4600 miles this year in a tubeless configuration. They ride as true to the day they were purchased and have been used for more challenging rides like descending Mount Lemon twice now. I don't find myself finding fault with any part of them and came here hoping to talk myself out of buying the disc version for a new build around a 2023 Time Alpe D'Huez Frame. So far that hasn't happened!
As far as Botique Chinese carbon wheelsets go, I think the Hyper series sit at the top. There are plenty of videos out there on youtube to do the research on, and I've seen these wheels run by pro conti teams over in Australia. Carbon spokes adoption among the larger wheel brands is also on the rise, so it may just be that Lun was ahead of the curve, which is not necessarily a fault. As their adoption continues, distribution and servicing options will continue to improve.
11 days to ship from China to arrival in Arizona FWIW.
As far as Botique Chinese carbon wheelsets go, I think the Hyper series sit at the top. There are plenty of videos out there on youtube to do the research on, and I've seen these wheels run by pro conti teams over in Australia. Carbon spokes adoption among the larger wheel brands is also on the rise, so it may just be that Lun was ahead of the curve, which is not necessarily a fault. As their adoption continues, distribution and servicing options will continue to improve.
11 days to ship from China to arrival in Arizona FWIW.