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Coggan’s Razor

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Coggan’s Razor

Old 04-21-23, 04:04 AM
  #26  
PeteHski
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Originally Posted by RChung
[Sorry for two posts in response, I thought I had commented about this in my previous post, but obviously this part was excised.]
Long steady riding may help with long steady rides but it's sort of like many of these discussions about marginal gains: mass-start racing isn't like TT'ing, so it often doesn't make sense to think about marginal gains in steady state. Mass-start racing is much more about a series of crises that you must survive. If you do survive, you get to recover until the next crisis. The marginal gain hardly matters when you're between crises (it matters, but hardly). Marginal gains help when the **** hits the fan and you're clawing to hang on. This is sort or what happens during your sportives: separation doesn't occur in marginal increments spread out over the century, nor when things are easy and slow: separation occurs when things get tough.
Exactly. My steady plodding Z2 friends (exaggerated for effect!) tend to get dropped too easily from fast dynamic groups in these events.

The two major events I did last year were quite different. One was a flat century (Tour of Cambridgeshire) which was exactly as you describe above. It started with a massive peloton, which inevitably split and fragmented along the way. I managed to hang on for dear life in a fast group close to the front. Riders were shelling off the back on nearly every acceleration or rise. HR was 2.7% Z2, 85% Z3 Tempo and 10% at Z4 threshold. Over 30 mins accumulated time at VO2 max or higher power.

The other event was a 4500m mountain epic (L'Etape du Tour). This was much more of a steady plod up the big cols. HR 32% Z2, 58% Z3, 10% Z4. Zero time at VO2 max and only 6 mins total at threshold power.

So quite different training focus required for each. More Z2 volume would likely benefit the L'Etape much more than the Tour of Cambridgeshire. The latter was honestly like a mega-long Zwift race!
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Old 04-24-23, 06:49 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Most of my "50 something" riding peers do endless Z2 rides with very little high intensity. What I notice in our events (typically hilly century sportives) is that they are easily dropped on punchy climbs or accelerations. I think Z2 training certainly has its place, but can leave you flat-paced if you don't do enough higher zone efforts. But obviously depends on what your target events actually consist of. I'm finding a more polarized approach in training successful this year. Only thing I'm struggling a bit with is keeping my weight down. I've crept up about 5 kg with reduced Z2 volume. I was obviously burning more calories before and haven't compensated enough for it. I basically eat the same.
It's funny how we are all different. I mostly did steady state Z2 training all of last summer - and the 2-3 years prior for the most part. A bunch of volume (for me), with no real intensity. My weight was frozen at 200+/- for the longest time.

Over the winter my overall volume went down significantly - but I did blocks of VO2 and threshold intervals, 3 weeks on, 1 week off - and I dropped 8-10#'s. Now I'm stuck again at #192.

Most of my rides are in the 1-3 hour range, with a few centuries mixed in. Prior to this winter, I was great (for me) at prolonged steady state efforts. Start the century at 175w, finish at 175w and feel great afterwards. My 1 hour rides were 175w, my 3 hour rides were 175w... But any ride over say 1 hour that included any intensity - I would blow up.

Less volume/more intensity has resulted in me setting, blowing away actually, all of my PB's from prior years. I can go out and ride hard at will on my two +/- hour efforts. And I can recover better from mid ride efforts.

I don't think I saw significant gains in FTP. But I can operate at a higher % of FTP for longer periods, and I can do FTP+ efforts at will during the rides.

I was slowly improving with Z2 work - intensity quickly took me to the next level.
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Old 04-24-23, 09:47 AM
  #28  
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I have been thinking about Coggan V San Millan. Coggan provides all his magic in his books and he is not a coach but highly educated and a successful cyclist. Coggan does not have to "coach" anyone and live the the results of his coached athletes.

San Millan is a coach and highly educated with some success as a cyclist. And of course, he has the success of the UAE pro team. San Millan has not provided much of his magic or secret sauce, if he has any. Doing a lot of distance cycling is required for long road races and stage races. Training right below LT 1 is a meh for me. So what, but the idea that excursions above LT 1 inhibit mitochondria training is interesting.

So I do not see much secret sauce coming out of San Millan's interviews and quite frankly why should he discuss what really makes his athletes fast with lots of endurance. I would like to know what they do at the high end and very high end - shorter duration efforts, frequency and diet. Tadej Pogačar is literally dropping the pro peloton (until he broke his wrist). What is that all about? He is good at everything. IMO, it is not long miles at z2.

I would take San Millan as a coach over Coggan. Why not. He has the success.

Last edited by Hermes; 04-24-23 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 04-24-23, 10:16 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Hermes
I would take San Millan as a coach over Coggan.
That's good since Andy isn't and has no desire to be a coach. Although the one time he did coach someone, he raised her from being competitive at the national level to winning national championships.
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Old 04-25-23, 04:00 AM
  #30  
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Well I did my first timed century event at the weekend, following a long period of relatively low volume, polarised training. The longest ride I had done prior to this event was 2.5 hours and most of my training rides were in the 1-2 hour range with short doses of VO2 max efforts and a few very intense Zwift races.

So how did it go? So, so really. I felt pretty strong on the steep punchy climbs in the first half and picked up a few PRs on the steepest segments, despite carrying a few kg more weight than previous 2 years. But then I faded a bit toward the end and started cramping on the second last climb. I did manage to stretch out and recover and got over the last big climb at a reasonable pace, but well down on my previous best. Overall time was slower than my previous 2 years, by a considerable margin.

I think the lack of Z2 volume training did hurt my overall endurance, although I felt stronger than ever on the critical climbs, particularly in the first 3 hours. I have another similar century event coming up in May, where I was very strong last year, so will be interesting to see how that goes.
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Old 04-25-23, 08:57 AM
  #31  
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PeteHski Congrats on century and PRs. Right now we are doing mostly high power big gear work with limited endurance. Almost a flipped polarized model. My limit today is about 3 hours of solid riding then I fall apart.

MoAlpha At the track, there is a sprint group that has the 3 hour slot ahead of us that have some Team USA sprinters and others. One of my friends, who is the 5 year age group below me, was saying that they are now using very big gears and not much gym. He is doing some efforts in 140 gear inches. Very short sprint efforts in large gears provides better strength training than the gym trying to match up muscle speed, angle and coordination with the upper body. So the leg presses, squats, deadlifts and etc metrics are interesting but not as good as on the bike work.

That does not negate gym strength training as a viable modality to improve fitness on the bike or ones health. It is not as good as on the bike...at least now on the track speed fashion show. Maybe now our sprinters can compete with the Euros, Aussies and New Zealanders. Our USA sprinters have sucked in World Cup in the past. We will see.
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Old 04-25-23, 02:33 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Hermes

MoAlpha At the track, there is a sprint group that has the 3 hour slot ahead of us that have some Team USA sprinters and others. One of my friends, who is the 5 year age group below me, was saying that they are now using very big gears and not much gym. He is doing some efforts in 140 gear inches. Very short sprint efforts in large gears provides better strength training than the gym trying to match up muscle speed, angle and coordination with the upper body. So the leg presses, squats, deadlifts and etc metrics are interesting but not as good as on the bike work.

That does not negate gym strength training as a viable modality to improve fitness on the bike or ones health. It is not as good as on the bike...at least now on the track speed fashion show. Maybe now our sprinters can compete with the Euros, Aussies and New Zealanders. Our USA sprinters have sucked in World Cup in the past. We will see.
Thanks Hermes. As I suggested, the gym work is part of a plan to hit 70 with some a reserve of strength, function, muscle mass, and bone density, and the benefits for cycling are incidental. I really need the anti-gravity work and spend way too freaking much time the bike as it is.
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Old 04-27-23, 04:41 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Hermes
PeteHski Congrats on century and PRs. Right now we are doing mostly high power big gear work with limited endurance. Almost a flipped polarized model. My limit today is about 3 hours of solid riding then I fall apart.
Thanks it was a nice event with some great scenery. My limit is also currently about 3 hours before falling apart. But that's okay. Those first 3 hours are faster and the training requires a lot less time overall. I'm now curious how the rest of my season will pan out with more century events coming up.
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Old 04-27-23, 09:17 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Thanks it was a nice event with some great scenery. My limit is also currently about 3 hours before falling apart. But that's okay. Those first 3 hours are faster and the training requires a lot less time overall. I'm now curious how the rest of my season will pan out with more century events coming up.
My guess is that it will not take much additional time in the saddle to give you enough endurance for a better century outcome. I find that if I am peaked at the top end of the power curve with a pretty good depth of interval work, then my endurance is also good - high intensity floats all boats. The problem is lack of saddle time. To say it another way, my mitochondria in my slow twitch muscle are primed and ready to dance. They just need some longer practice sessions. And I need the touch points on the bike to HTFU for longer rides.
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Old 04-27-23, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Hermes
My guess is that it will not take much additional time in the saddle to give you enough endurance for a better century outcome. I find that if I am peaked at the top end of the power curve with a pretty good depth of interval work, then my endurance is also good - high intensity floats all boats. The problem is lack of saddle time. To say it another way, my mitochondria in my slow twitch muscle are primed and ready to dance. They just need some longer practice sessions. And I need the touch points on the bike to HTFU for longer rides.
Yes, that's what I'm hoping. When I went into this event it was around 9 months since I'd ridden for longer than a couple of hours, so was always going to be a shock. It was really only the last hour that I started suffering a little, so I was quite happy overall.
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