livedarklions

I don't know about you, but either as a pedestrian or a cyclist, when I get treated like a meat pylon to close pass with a several ton vehicle, I definitely believe I am being treated as less than human. I think we're just so used to driver supremacy that we just don't notice it.

Eric F 

I'm not insisting anything, or saying that anyone else needs to look at it through the same lens as me. I'm just sharing my opinion. One of the factors in my opinion is point of view. I was speaking primarily on how we look at ourselves, rather than how we are perceived/categorized by others. I consider myself a "cyclist". My involvement and passion for cycling is part of what makes me me, at this point in my life. Likewise with my friend who uses the social media handle 'Runner Suzy". For Suzy, running is a passionate activity that has shaped part of her identity, most of all in the way she sees herself.

Be careful of runners in parks. They're a squirrelly lot. Not so much the ones on stairs, though. They just tend to lay there, but they're rarely seen in parks.

genejockey 

I can't agree, because somebody running you off the road because he sees you as part of a hated outgroup has zero to do with how you feel about it.

Eric F 

I'm naming my next band "Meat Pylons". We will play shoegazer rock.

daihard 

Thanks for your reply. The way I see it is, the author doesn't have anything negative about the "cyclists" themselves. He just dislikes the confirmation bias and out-group homogeneity imposed on them by the general public, and that he is considered "one of them."

I see your point. A majority of people on this forum may be associated with the typical North American cyclists (i.e. "wielrenners"). OTOH, in general, people who simply want to get around by bike ("fietsers") do exist. Some people may wear both hats (like me). What I ask myself (and you and others) is, what can we do to create a society where people can safely travel regardless of their means of transport, without suffering from the kind of harassment and assault highlighted in the video. In a society like that, it really won't matter whether you're a "cyclist" or just a person riding a bike.

I'm not sure if I'm conveying my thoughts very well. I'm kinda thinking out loud here...

livedarklions

I was referring to your claim that the "common connotation" of the word runner is someone who considers it part of their identity, and you even questioned whether a person would call themselves a runner while they were actually running. Those are actually factual assertions about how other people (not yourself) "commonly" use or don't use the word, and I think they're objectively wrong.

I'm not seeing a bright line between an activity I do a lot and an activity that is part of my identity. To me, saying someone who identifies themselves as a cyclist is a cyclist because being a cyclist is part of their identity seems entirely circular. I'm definitely a driver because I drive a fair amount per week, but I don't consider driving part of my identity. I do it primarily because I need it to maintain my employment.

I think I've made this point in several threads on this topic, but I think people who think they have THE definition of cyclist forget that adjectives are really helpful for making distinctions.

livedarklions

It's a hell of a lot easier to be a dick to someone or bully and abuse them if you've considered them less than human. How relativist do you want to be here? Someone can be an apologist for even the worst possible behavior, does that disqualify the use of the term "dehumanizing"?

livedarklions

Close--a personal favorite:

Eric F 

I get it, and maybe I'm not communicating my thoughts clearly, but I think it's an interesting discussion. I also appreciate being able to discuss differences of opinion without it devolving into personal insults.

I could be actively running - maybe hustling to cross a street at a brief break in traffic - and even in that moment of running, not I would not consider myself a runner in the manner I'm talking about. Your example of a runner in a park is actually a good one. We see someone running in that environment, probably wearing running shoes, and likely clothing appropriate for the activity, and we tend to categorize them as a runner. Now, if we see a guy in a suit and tie running down the sidewalk of a downtown business district, I would guess very few of us would describe that person as a runner in the same way.

I understand your point about being a driver. I brought up in earlier posts that I think there is a passion component to those who would use an activity as part of their self-description. Someone who only uses a bicycle for practical purposes, and isn't passionate about the activity of bike riding as a recreation/sport, will likely see themselves differently than us weirdos who understand what N+1 feels like. I have friends who consider themselves "car guys". The mentality is similar.

All of this is IMO, YMMV.

Eric F 

I have always liked that song.

seypat

I don't really think of myself a runner, yet I am. Ran a half marathon this past weekend. Marathon training for fall marathons starts the first week in June. I'll log around 800 miles from then and do 2 marathons in October/November. I must be a runner after all. Now, the only reason that I ran that half marathon is because due to some other time obligations. Otherwise, I would have done a cycling event I usually do that weekend. So, I cycle also, but think of myself more as a person that rides his bikes. I guess I would still classify myself as a AAA athlete, even though I've aged out of some sports. AAA being Anything, Any time, Any place. I'll give it a go. I might not be good at any of them, but why should that stop a person. I don't Strava anything, or send activity pics to others besides my wife. My wife will track me on various events, but that's about it. I'm just out there doing "it," whatever "it" is because I can. I want to do well/have a decent time, but that's not on the top of the list. As long as I've got good weather, it's a good day. Even if the weather is not good, it still usually beats sitting on a couch. What does that make me? Runner, cyclist, who cares? I'll tell you what is does make me, happy. That's the only think that matters.

bbbean 

Those challenges aren't unique to cyclists. Simply being an adult in the world exposes you t o people who are inconsiderate, rude, and occasionally dangerous.

mstateglfr 

I think that oftentimes drivers are distracted/oblivious/ignorant. Then yes there are obviously some who like to F with cyclists. There are countless instances of people almost hitting me when I am in a car, and ive been hit a few times. I dont think they are dehumanizing me either. They are just making mistakes. Big mistakes, but mistakes nonetheless.

mstateglfr 

True, and your view makes sense. I totally see it as valid. Im just saying that what actually matters is the perception of the person who is impacted. If they view it as 'well that guy is a dick', then that is very different from 'that person dehumanized me!'...at least those are different in my mind.
Its simply a matter of when and how we see ourselves as victims. And this isnt shaming anyone who sees themself as a victim more than I see myself as a victim, it really is just a conversation about the reality that we all have varying levels of acceptance and patience.
Again though- you viewing that as dehumanizing is totally cool and if you said that to me on a ride, I wouldnt disagree or even think you are wrong. Its how you view a situation that has many factors.

bbbean 

I respectfully disagree. Everyone who rides a bike wants to be able to get to their destination safely. Regardless of whether you're a MTBer shredding trails, or a guy with DUIs who has to commute by bike till you get your license back, you need to be able to safely get from point A to point B. We may disagree on the best way to do that, and there are a host of side issues some of us care about that others don't (A roadie doesn't worry too much about trail building, for instance).

I do agree with one aspect of the video. Some non-cyclists (people who don't ride bike, whatever) have an irrational dislike against people who ride bikes. Its worth noting that people have all sorts of irrational dislikes, including bias based on politics, religion, race, gender, geography, appearance, even favorite sports teams or regional foods. We will never achieve universal tolerance of cycling, much less enthusiastic acceptance or endorsement. But if we don't spend our time fueling the cause of the anti(insert preferred term here)s by attacking each other, we'll get much closer.

Of course, 99+% of my cycling is trouble free. Most drivers are safe, most cops leave me alone, most dogs are friendly, and most roads are adequate for my needs. I'm not going to focus so much attention on the 1% that cause trouble that I lose the enjoyment of the other 99%.

BB

livedarklions

Who said being dehumanized for one characteristic or another was unique to cyclists? What is unique to cycling is communing with the much larger vehicles driven by these people on the road.

bbbean 

Step one: Make more friends than enemies.

livedarklions

I'm not talking about mistakes. I've definitely been treated with obvious hostility and aggression, and it's quite a different experience than dealing with someone who isn't in control of a machine that can squash you.

I've talked to several cyclists who have moved to this state from other places, and we all agree that the level of driver hostility is way worse than anything we've seen elsewhere.

mstateglfr 

Ok, noted. And in all seriousness, that has to be really frustrating and concerning.
...but I responded to the OP with honesty and have only continued to cite my view and experience. I am not sure why you and one or two others are so worked up over me responding based on my experiences. I fully believe your experiences and accept how you view everything related to this topic- hostility, intent, ignorance, dehumanization, etc etc. My experiences are different though, so I posted that.

I didnt just talk about mistakes. I very clearly state this in the second sentence of the post you responded to- I acknowledge there are people who want to F with cyclists for a variety of reasons.
In reality though, some drivers are dangerous to cyclists because they arent paying attention, some are dangerous because they think they are being safe and just wrong due to misjudgement, some are dangerous because they make a poor decision, and some are dangerous because their intent is to be dangerous.



Funny irony time- Dont dehumanize drivers! Treat them all as individuals instead of a collective! <---I am joking, take a breath if you need before correcting me and telling me how I am wrong. Im not totally wrong, but I get that you feel it will be different.

livedarklions

Relax, I'm neither worked up or going after you. I just disagreed with what you said about dehumanization and you seem to be discussing that civilly with me and others.

And no irony here, I'm fully aware that it's the small minority of drivers who act in this way, it's just that we've all been surprised by how many more of them there are in this state as compared to other states we've ridden in.

LarrySellerz

Not just bikes probably thinks that unless you know what “partypace” is you aren’t a cyclist. If you are filled with the “spirit of Gravel” then you’re definitely a cyclist even if not going PartyPace.

not going to watch the video, but I’d bet my left knut that he doesn’t identify as a cyclist but instead someone who rides bikes or something. Ironic, considering he literally rides bicycles for a living, he’s a professional cyclist by any stretch.

daihard 

If you mean helping more people understand how people on bike behave in general and therefore become less aggressive towards them, I agree it is a good goal. The dilemma is, in order for that to happen, we need more people to bike regularly, but for THAT to happen, we need safer bike infrastructure, including separated bike path, redesigned roads, etc. Then you hit the roadblock that says "Why need such infrastructure when so few people bike?"

Eric F 

Thank you for letting us know that your false assumptions are based completely on your own willful ignorance.

GhostRider62

Seems like we have a lot of philosophers and psychological types here.

I do not know the word for it but when I ride my recumbent, nobody buzzes me, grudge passes me, or does anything other than give me the lane. Maybe it is stickers on the tailbox or their perception that I am disabled but the difference in how motorists treat me on the bent vs the upright is mind blowing, there is probably a fancy word for it. I dunno

indyfabz

Are you willing to add $5 to that bet? I’m sure that was the line you were thinking of.