High Heat Training
07-24-22, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by koala logs
Up to 40 minutes in zone 5 in my parallel universe....
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07-24-22, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
I smell BS here....Nobody can sustain Zone 5 ride for more than a few minutes, not even eite level athletes.
Some would call that cheating. I would call it self care.
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07-24-22, 03:31 PM
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To me, it all depends on what one means by zone 5. By looking at the chart post 25, since zone 5 is at the top and the hardest I'd expect it to be an all out effort, but I guess that's NOT what that particular chart is saying. I personally, like this chart better, because it's more specific. All out efforts can only be maintained for a matter of seconds. https://www.indoorcyclingassociation...t%20percentage.
I personally do a lot of zone 4 - 7 efforts, I'm a pretty good sprinter. So High-heat training does not limit me in the least, if any thing it helps because it is advantageous in many respects, as studies have shown.
https://tgr.run/2018/04/30/heat-trai...ude%20training.
I understand the issue/concern some have of having to exert oneself less in high-heat conditions, but that's not a bad thing, because most people already workout too hard every time they go for a run/ride. Most people automatically run/ride in at least zone 3 when they should be doing zone 1 or 2. That way you're not overly stressing yourself and you're still getting all the aerobic conditioning, meaning when you do the zone 4 and above workouts, you can get the most out of them, because you're fresh.
Whenever I feel myself getting too fast, I think of this video presentation, it's very interesting and only about 3-minutes long. Key take away, when your working at about 60% max H/R, your heart is pumping the max blood volume....I'll let Dr Jack Daniels explain the rest
I personally do a lot of zone 4 - 7 efforts, I'm a pretty good sprinter. So High-heat training does not limit me in the least, if any thing it helps because it is advantageous in many respects, as studies have shown.
https://tgr.run/2018/04/30/heat-trai...ude%20training.
Training in the heat adds extra settings to your blood flow (hypervolemia). Blood volume is the sum of red blood cells and plasma volume. Red blood cells transport oxygen, while more plasma allows your heart to pump more volume per beat per minute (greater cardiac output). Blood volume is a big determinant in performance, and it can change with proper heat training.
Training in the heat can increase the rate of perspiration, increase a runner’s blood plasma volume (which leads to better cardiovascular fitness), reduce overall core temperature, reduce blood lactate and even increase skeletal muscle force. Heat acclimation can be as efficient or even more than altitude training. Heat acclimation provides more substantial environment specific improvements in aerobic performance than altitude training. Heat training not only does a better job at increasing VO2 max, but it also makes runners better at withstanding a wide range of temperatures.
Training in the heat properly can have extraordinary effects. Studies have shown that heat training not only can expand blood plasma volume, but there seem to be some changes in the heart’s left ventricle, which helps to increase oxygen delivery to the muscles. Runners who train in hot weather, tend to get better at regulating heat by sweating earlier and developing a colder resting body temperature. Training in hot weather, runners have to compromise training quality for the heat acclimation. When starting to run in hot weather, the heat is additional stress to the body just like more intense training sessions (intervals) or running longer distances.
Training in the heat can increase the rate of perspiration, increase a runner’s blood plasma volume (which leads to better cardiovascular fitness), reduce overall core temperature, reduce blood lactate and even increase skeletal muscle force. Heat acclimation can be as efficient or even more than altitude training. Heat acclimation provides more substantial environment specific improvements in aerobic performance than altitude training. Heat training not only does a better job at increasing VO2 max, but it also makes runners better at withstanding a wide range of temperatures.
Training in the heat properly can have extraordinary effects. Studies have shown that heat training not only can expand blood plasma volume, but there seem to be some changes in the heart’s left ventricle, which helps to increase oxygen delivery to the muscles. Runners who train in hot weather, tend to get better at regulating heat by sweating earlier and developing a colder resting body temperature. Training in hot weather, runners have to compromise training quality for the heat acclimation. When starting to run in hot weather, the heat is additional stress to the body just like more intense training sessions (intervals) or running longer distances.
I understand the issue/concern some have of having to exert oneself less in high-heat conditions, but that's not a bad thing, because most people already workout too hard every time they go for a run/ride. Most people automatically run/ride in at least zone 3 when they should be doing zone 1 or 2. That way you're not overly stressing yourself and you're still getting all the aerobic conditioning, meaning when you do the zone 4 and above workouts, you can get the most out of them, because you're fresh.
Whenever I feel myself getting too fast, I think of this video presentation, it's very interesting and only about 3-minutes long. Key take away, when your working at about 60% max H/R, your heart is pumping the max blood volume....I'll let Dr Jack Daniels explain the rest
07-24-22, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
You can do an extended Z5, if you set a low FTP number.
Some would call that cheating. I would call it self care.
Some would call that cheating. I would call it self care.
07-24-22, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
Even at the lowest setting it`s still over 100%,.
But here's the great part -- you can manually enter whatever FTP you want. Pick a small FTP, and now you're doing a bunch of Z5 without working very hard.
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07-24-22, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Yes, Z5 is above 100% of FTP.
But here's the great part -- you can manually enter whatever FTP you want. Pick a small FTP, and now you're doing a bunch of Z5 without working very hard.
But here's the great part -- you can manually enter whatever FTP you want. Pick a small FTP, and now you're doing a bunch of Z5 without working very hard.
Thus I know perfectly well when I'm in Z5 because I'm panting. If I'm not panting, I'm somewhere below that zone. In my 60s, I could reliably hold lower Z5 for about 10 minutes before I blew up. That's not all out, obviously. Back then I could hold all out for about 45", now it's down to 30" and the power starts to drop. I can kick harder than that of course, but can't hold that peak. If I'm training hard, I'll get an hour or less in Z4 and maybe 20' in zone 5 - over a whole week's rides, working as hard as I can recover from.
Of course people are going to say, "but the definition of FTP . . .". So what. I get results which have stayed stable over the past couple of decades, meaning amount of time in Z4 and Z5 and IF have stayed at about what they should be for an averagely talented recreational rider.as my fitness has gone up and down.
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07-24-22, 08:46 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by work4bike
I understand the issue/concern some have of having to exert oneself less in high-heat conditions, but that's not a bad thing, because most people already workout too hard every time they go for a run/ride. Most people automatically run/ride in at least zone 3 when they should be doing zone 1 or 2. That way you're not overly stressing yourself and you're still getting all the aerobic conditioning, meaning when you do the zone 4 and above workouts, you can get the most out of them, because you're fresh.
With that in mind, hard sessions at higher power output is better (if you stick to a good structured training plan). It builds muscle strength and helps maintain good bone density. It makes you tougher against injuries. Adding out of the saddle (OOS) or standing while pedaling intervals during the hard sessions will further amplify the bone and muscle adaptations.
This is why finding ways to improve cooling when training in the hot season is always a good thing if it makes you output more power. On the other hand, making yourself even hotter will be counter-productive. You can already overheat yourself in this hot season by simply working out harder and that would be a better thing to do than over-heating yourself by not cooling your drinks for example or even wearing warmer clothing or getting out in the middle of the day.
My training temperatures during this summer heat is still above 90F but with most of it indoors, I'm not exposed to the sun, I have unlimited supply of cold electrolyte water, good amount of airflow for cooling. That way, I can still output good power and not feel overheated.
Last edited by koala logs; 07-24-22 at 08:55 PM.
07-25-22, 04:19 AM
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Acclimation to heat is essential if competing or doing some important grand fondue type ride but whether one increases FTP or other measure of aerobic fitness riding in really hot weather is debatable and the science is mixed.
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07-25-22, 06:51 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Acclimation to heat is essential if competing or doing some important grand fondue type ride but whether one increases FTP or other measure of aerobic fitness riding in really hot weather is debatable and the science is mixed.
07-25-22, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RH Clark
Maybe a totally different thing but there is quite a bit of research pointing to health benefits by simply being exposed to high heat as in a sauna or hot tub. It has to do with shock proteins and also works in extreme cold.
if a rider is very fit, it is questionable that exercise in hot temperatures to acclimate will increase any fitness parameters that I mentioned. There are studies showing the contrary. Many of the studies are with the unfit wit VO2 max in the 30's and are very short duration studies. A recent study by Prof. Rønnestad from Norway utilized elite cyclists with one group in a heat chamber, one in a heated body suit, and the control. VO2 max increased about 2.5-3% in the the heat chamber and body suit groups with the body suit groups showing the biggest improvement in FTP (VT2.....IIRC). So, maybe there is something. I know that I cannot push too hard in really hot temps at my age and my fitness does not improve although acclimatization has big benefits. Guess I am wrong or just old or both
07-25-22, 12:50 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
i've used a sauna in the past and have tried cold thermogenesis. Cold is great for losing fat
if a rider is very fit, it is questionable that exercise in hot temperatures to acclimate will increase any fitness parameters that I mentioned. There are studies showing the contrary. Many of the studies are with the unfit wit VO2 max in the 30's and are very short duration studies. A recent study by Prof. Rønnestad from Norway utilized elite cyclists with one group in a heat chamber, one in a heated body suit, and the control. VO2 max increased about 2.5-3% in the the heat chamber and body suit groups with the body suit groups showing the biggest improvement in FTP (VT2.....IIRC). So, maybe there is something. I know that I cannot push too hard in really hot temps at my age and my fitness does not improve although acclimatization has big benefits. Guess I am wrong or just old or both
if a rider is very fit, it is questionable that exercise in hot temperatures to acclimate will increase any fitness parameters that I mentioned. There are studies showing the contrary. Many of the studies are with the unfit wit VO2 max in the 30's and are very short duration studies. A recent study by Prof. Rønnestad from Norway utilized elite cyclists with one group in a heat chamber, one in a heated body suit, and the control. VO2 max increased about 2.5-3% in the the heat chamber and body suit groups with the body suit groups showing the biggest improvement in FTP (VT2.....IIRC). So, maybe there is something. I know that I cannot push too hard in really hot temps at my age and my fitness does not improve although acclimatization has big benefits. Guess I am wrong or just old or both
It might be something about needing to reach a finish point that can push you when cycling that wouldn't be the same if you were just stationary training in heat like they do in those heated yoga classes, or if you were in a sauna.
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07-25-22, 08:51 PM
#37
Banned.
Originally Posted by RH Clark
I'm 54 and I have only been striving for health for 4 years. I watch my diet and get as much cycling and yoga as I can. I do think there is great benefit in a lot of these therapies, but you have to tailor it to suit you. I can't do the intense workout in the heat like I could 10 or better yet 20 years ago. I about stroked out from heat about 3 years ago and I am a lot more respectful of how fast you can get into trouble doing something like intense cycling in high heat.
It might be something about needing to reach a finish point that can push you when cycling that wouldn't be the same if you were just stationary training in heat like they do in those heated yoga classes, or if you were in a sauna.
It might be something about needing to reach a finish point that can push you when cycling that wouldn't be the same if you were just stationary training in heat like they do in those heated yoga classes, or if you were in a sauna.
But not high intensity workout in high heat conditions like going out in the mid day sun or not using fan during indoor training. Summer season already gives plenty of opportunities to acclimate to the heat. There's no need to add extra heat. It will only force you to scale back your efforts / power and that can be bad for FTP and building bone and muscle strength.
07-26-22, 04:41 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Thus I know perfectly well when I'm in Z5 because I'm panting. If I'm not panting, I'm somewhere below that zone. In my 60s, I could reliably hold lower Z5 for about 10 minutes before I blew up. That's not all out, obviously. Back then I could hold all out for about 45", now it's down to 30" and the power starts to drop. I can kick harder than that of course, but can't hold that peak. If I'm training hard, I'll get an hour or less in Z4 and maybe 20' in zone 5 - over a whole week's rides, working as hard as I can recover from.
If I push harder than that, I start to feel like I'm drowning and actually get symptoms of oxygen starvation or CO2 poisoning like being light-headed. My legs is probably starting to put more CO2 in the blood stream than my body can replace it with oxygen. There are cases of elite athletes passing out during an all-out sprint effort. They simply ran out of oxygen in their bloodstream and it can happen in colder temperatures. Obviously worse in high temperatures.
It gets worse when it's really hot so I definitely have to do the training indoors, away from the sun, strong fan, lots of cold drinks, and maintaining excellent ventilation. I'm 40 years old but my calculated Max HR might be way off, the closest estimate is 185 bpm but then I'm holding 204 bpm long enough so I suspect my actual MHR would be significantly higher, Maybe around 215 bpm.
07-26-22, 12:36 PM
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I can't say I find any increased benefit from training in hot weather. I live in one of Europe's most visited tourist beach hotspots. We have Sunny days for over 300 days per year. Temps are pretty mild which is a big attraction for cyclists but July and August hit 90-110F frequently on the coast and more a little in-land where we ride to.
I grew up in Durban, South Africa which was warmer, more humid.
I'm doing 5 hrs tomorrow with some friends, 2 of which are UK tourists. We'll head out at 7h00 to avoid the worst of the heat. I need to hydrate more in the warmer weather and I do like Summer here but I also avoid the worst of it for training since I have been out in it often enough on long rides to know I don't feel any benefit from it and risk sunburn.
I grew up in Durban, South Africa which was warmer, more humid.
I'm doing 5 hrs tomorrow with some friends, 2 of which are UK tourists. We'll head out at 7h00 to avoid the worst of the heat. I need to hydrate more in the warmer weather and I do like Summer here but I also avoid the worst of it for training since I have been out in it often enough on long rides to know I don't feel any benefit from it and risk sunburn.
