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Tubeless Problems

Old 08-13-22, 06:19 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
- How do I think sealant would get into the valve (an gum it up) ? Sorry to burst your bubble, It happens. Sometimes to the point it becomes a real PITA to inflate the tyre.


- Never mind? Sure! :-) You get to have your cake and eat it too, haha!.. Or, explain how/why liquid sealant that is promised to plug holes up to 1/4", quickly, cant plug a small leak that is likely less than 0.1 mm.


Im sorry dude. It just doesn't work and the endless workarounds (you "just" have to get a different sealant, "just" get different tyres, "just" get special plugs to when the sealant fails, "just" get the "right" valves, "just re-tape the rim, "just" get the right gadget to mount the tyres, "just" do this that and the other to seat the tyre on the rim, "just" get a special pump to inflate, You must inflate you tyre at 6 o or 12 o clock or 3 o clock, blah, blah, blah!) is just further proof its a half baked cake.
Yeah, I know how sealant can get *in* a valve stem, but I'm talking about sealing a leak at the base of the valve stem.

Try harder.
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Old 08-13-22, 06:41 AM
  #27  
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Sure, what ever. You are the one trying to make it an argument about where the hole is. It makes no difference to question and inherent claim posted in #10 - The sealant doesn't work as advertised and claimed on the forums, if it cant even plug tiny little leaks, no matter if its at the base of the valve. And that is the reason all sorts of workarounds come into play.
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Old 08-13-22, 07:11 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
Sure, what ever. You are the one trying to make it an argument about where the hole is.
Try harder.

Originally Posted by Bassmanbob View Post
Problem:
I keep getting leaks at the stem of the wheel, confirmed by applying soapy water with bubbles only at the stem.
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Old 08-13-22, 07:59 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
- How do I think sealant would get into the valve (an gum it up) ? Sorry to burst your bubble, It happens. Sometimes to the point it becomes a real PITA to inflate the tyre.


- Never mind? Sure! :-) You get to have your cake and eat it too, haha!.. Or, explain how/why liquid sealant that is promised to plug holes up to 1/4", quickly, cant plug a small leak that is likely less than 0.1 mm.


Im sorry dude. It just doesn't work and the endless workarounds (you "just" have to get a different sealant, "just" get different tyres, "just" get special plugs to when the sealant fails, "just" get the "right" valves, "just re-tape the rim, "just" get the right gadget to mount the tyres, "just" do this that and the other to seat the tyre on the rim, "just" get a special pump to inflate, You must inflate you tyre at 6 o or 12 o clock or 3 o clock, blah, blah, blah!) is just further proof its a half baked cake.
Because tubeless sealant isn't plumbers putty, pipe dope, or Play-Doh.

The problem is it needs a soft pliable structure that is thick enough to adhere to to resist the pressure. That rules out problematic or previously tubed paper thin skin walls & rigid rim gaps at the rim seam & valves as being sealable areas,

Huge deal, I know. A smear of Shoo-Goo on a problem area of a skin wall fixes one issue & attention to detail fixes the other.

Tubeless seals when the soft pliable rubber is stretched by the outward flow of air, the hole gets filled by the sealant, the flow is then reduced, & the stretched rubber then contracts around the newly formed latex plug. It's not rocket science & it works.

Every system has it's limitations, even tubes.
The workaround for tubes? Tubeless.
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Old 08-13-22, 01:04 PM
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base2 Thank you for the explanation. I too have often wondered why sealing around rigid surfaces like rim edge or valve hole is so iffy.
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Old 08-15-22, 06:49 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Trsnrtr View Post
I've never heard this before. Is there a recommended position?
I'd say 9 or 3 o'clock. I don't believe there is an official recommended position but I want to avoid sealant building up and drying around the valve. I store it with the valve down as well.
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Old 08-15-22, 07:16 PM
  #32  
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The round tubeless rubber piece works for my wheel where as the rectangular style such as Enve did not work. Might swap out.
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Old 08-15-22, 07:19 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
I'd say 9 or 3 o'clock. I don't believe there is an official recommended position but I want to avoid sealant building up and drying around the valve. I store it with the valve down as well.
I find the last part of your post amazing. I've had the reverse experience. When I store my bike with the stem in the 6 o'clock position, both the front and rear wheels empty by morning-- totally empty. when I leave the bike stored with the stems at 12 o'clock, they hold the pressure the best.
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Old 08-15-22, 07:20 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by denvertrout View Post
The round tubeless rubber piece works for my wheel where as the rectangular style such as Enve did not work. Might swap out.
Which brand and model worked for you?
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Old 08-16-22, 01:36 AM
  #35  
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OMG, this valve stuff is getting out of hand.

The valve should be airtight on its own, regardless of sealant and regardless of position.

Valve position when airing up should be irrelevant, except, perhaps, in the case of inflating with a CO2 cartridge, because some sealants respond badly to being blasted with cold gas.
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Old 08-16-22, 04:20 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
OMG, this valve stuff is getting out of hand.

The valve should be airtight on its own, regardless of sealant and regardless of position.

Valve position when airing up should be irrelevant, except, perhaps, in the case of inflating with a CO2 cartridge, because some sealants respond badly to being blasted with cold gas.
Agreed. I was waiting for the magic insight but, alas, I see none.
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Old 08-16-22, 04:25 AM
  #37  
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proper valve position depends on your location relative to the equator

thought this was fairly obvious
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Old 08-16-22, 05:31 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Bassmanbob View Post
I find the last part of your post amazing. I've had the reverse experience. When I store my bike with the stem in the 6 o'clock position, both the front and rear wheels empty by morning-- totally empty. when I leave the bike stored with the stems at 12 o'clock, they hold the pressure the best.
Really? I never had an air leak ''issue''. My tires do deflate but it's only after a few weeks (which is irrelevant because I ride a few times a week and pump them often).

Something must be wrong with your setup. Perhaps a bad valve core? When's the last time you performed maintenance (new valve core, sealant replacement, cleaning the inside of the rims, etc.) on your TL setup?

Storing them at 12 o'clock may mean that some sealant is left near the rubber seal of your valve core, avoiding your air from leaking. My theory is bit of a stretch, I know

Last edited by eduskator; 08-16-22 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 08-16-22, 06:05 AM
  #39  
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Bassmanbob - I have read through this thread and I am curious about your mystery leaking. I looked up the Enve wheels you are using to understand their specifications a bit more. It appears that the Vittoria 30mm tubeless tires you are using are “approved” by Enve to work with their hookless rims so that is not likely your problem. But really I was reading up on them to see if they mentioned much about how they are taped from the factory (or if they are like Fulcrum and Mavic UST with un-drilled rim interior). They made no mention of the tape, 🤔….

When there is all this discussion of air leaking from the valve I remember other tubeless troubleshooting threads I have read where folks mention that air loss from the valve stem can be from anywhere in the rim! This is because the top of the valve stem is not meant to be airtight and any air that leaks into the rim extrusion interior will escape where it needs to. So I would ask if you could talk about your rim tape configuration for these wheels. It may be just like my tubeless aluminum road wheels (DT Swiss R460) where you may not get an airtight seal the first go around. If you visually inspect your tape you may see actual tracts of sealant where it is migrating under unsealed sections of the tape, attempting but not fully succeeding at creating an air tight seal. Or, you might not see these tracts until you peel back the tape altogether and at this point your are committing to fully re-tape the rim. But if when you remove all of the tape you see sealant residue around any of your spoke holes, this is the source of your leak, and your tubeless valve may have been perfectly sealed all along.

Hope this moves the conversation forward…
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Old 08-16-22, 12:09 PM
  #40  
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OP: Did you bring the bike back to the LBS that sold it to you? What did the mechanic say? IMO, they should deal with the hassle and fix your issue.
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Old 08-16-22, 12:09 PM
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I have a mystery leak in one of my wheels at the moment but I’m sure that I’ll fix it. The the tire on a couple 2-3 hour rides and the tire holds up fine but is out of air in the morning. A brief check of the tread this morning located two spots where a stone is embedded. I also checked my logs and I found that I hadn’t checked the sealant this summer or about 2600 miles and 3 months.

I’m fairly certain that the tire is acting like a regular clincher with a small leak and there isn’t enough sealant to plug it. I’ll know when I get around to looking at it but I’m betting that I’ve already figured it out.
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Old 08-16-22, 12:26 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Trsnrtr View Post
I have a mystery leak in one of my wheels at the moment but I’m sure that I’ll fix it. The the tire on a couple 2-3 hour rides and the tire holds up fine but is out of air in the morning. A brief check of the tread this morning located two spots where a stone is embedded. I also checked my logs and I found that I hadn’t checked the sealant this summer or about 2600 miles and 3 months.

I’m fairly certain that the tire is acting like a regular clincher with a small leak and there isn’t enough sealant to plug it. I’ll know when I get around to looking at it but I’m betting that I’ve already figured it out.
I've gotten lazy and don't schedule sealant checks anymore. When my tires start losing more than a few psi overnight, I take that as an indication that I need to top off.
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Old 08-16-22, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Trsnrtr View Post
I have a mystery leak in one of my wheels at the moment but I’m sure that I’ll fix it. The the tire on a couple 2-3 hour rides and the tire holds up fine but is out of air in the morning. A brief check of the tread this morning located two spots where a stone is embedded. I also checked my logs and I found that I hadn’t checked the sealant this summer or about 2600 miles and 3 months.

I’m fairly certain that the tire is acting like a regular clincher with a small leak and there isn’t enough sealant to plug it. I’ll know when I get around to looking at it but I’m betting that I’ve already figured it out.
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I've gotten lazy and don't schedule sealant checks anymore. When my tires start losing more than a few psi overnight, I take that as an indication that I need to top off.
I just moved from a more moderate climate to...Hell. Well, it's hot as hell around here, anyway. And dry. I used to check my sealant level each month, and only had to add sealant every couple months. Now I often add sealant every 2-3 weeks. If I don't, the tires go dry and punctures don't seal.
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Old 08-16-22, 01:47 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
I just moved from a more moderate climate to...Hell. Well, it's hot as hell around here, anyway. And dry. I used to check my sealant level each month, and only had to add sealant every couple months. Now I often add sealant every 2-3 weeks. If I don't, the tires go dry and punctures don't seal.
Ouch. I had been using regular Orange Seal, but recently moved to the Endurance blend. When I checked my sealant levels before a road trip in July (on which I'd be bringing the bike), I realized that it was the first time that I'd checked since I'd installed the new tires in late October

...and the sealant was still fine.

....though, in fairness, the wheels didn't do much between Dec and Mar, other than get sloshed around a bit each day, when getting the bike on/off the trainer.
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Old 08-16-22, 02:09 PM
  #45  
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Bassmanbob , as I have mentioned, have you determined where is the leak coming from? If it's leaking from the inside of the pressure relief valve stem nut, then it's probably the rim tape, especially if it held for a week. It's likely the tubeless install damaged the rim tape. So change that first. And really, if it's a new bike, this should be done by the seller, and you shouldn't be trying to figure this out in the forum. The answer is either the valve or the rim tape, don't overthink it. I have Enve 4.5 ARs and I fill at all angles where it lies. Haven't had the valve clog from SealSmart in 4 years.

Originally Posted by denvertrout View Post
The round tubeless rubber piece works for my wheel where as the rectangular style such as Enve did not work. Might swap out.
Are your wheels Enve? I'd be wary to say Enve doesn't know which shape rubber bases are optimal for their design and rim tape install? I've only had the one problem on my 4.5 and it was the rim tape when I accidentally damaged it changing tires. The Enve valves are developed to prevent the sidewalls of the rim from overfill when the rim tape is compromised, which could cause the sidewall to collapse.
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Old 08-16-22, 02:48 PM
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As expected, both tires were dry as a bone inside but are now topped off.
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Old 08-16-22, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Ouch. I had been using regular Orange Seal, but recently moved to the Endurance blend. When I checked my sealant levels before a road trip in July (on which I'd be bringing the bike), I realized that it was the first time that I'd checked since I'd installed the new tires in late October

...and the sealant was still fine.

....though, in fairness, the wheels didn't do much between Dec and Mar, other than get sloshed around a bit each day, when getting the bike on/off the trainer.
Nice to see that this brand stays liquid for a long period of time. Some of them dries up after 3 months...

4 months into the season this year & 3500kms (2100ish miles) and my Muc-Off sealant is still good.
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Old 08-16-22, 06:16 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
OMG, this valve stuff is getting out of hand.

The valve should be airtight on its own, regardless of sealant and regardless of position.

Valve position when airing up should be irrelevant, except, perhaps, in the case of inflating with a CO2 cartridge, because some sealants respond badly to being blasted with cold gas.
Honestly, that's what I originally thought, but I've been having such problems I was looking for any patterns that presented. I just received the shipment from Enve for their tape and stems. I'll replace them this weekend when I have time and reseal the set up.
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Old 08-16-22, 06:19 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
Really? I never had an air leak ''issue''. My tires do deflate but it's only after a few weeks (which is irrelevant because I ride a few times a week and pump them often).

Something must be wrong with your setup. Perhaps a bad valve core? When's the last time you performed maintenance (new valve core, sealant replacement, cleaning the inside of the rims, etc.) on your TL setup?

Storing them at 12 o'clock may mean that some sealant is left near the rubber seal of your valve core, avoiding your air from leaking. My theory is bit of a stretch, I know
The whole bike is new (end of June), so the set-up is since then. I just received an Enve package of new tape and stems. I'll replace them all this weekend when I have time.
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Old 08-16-22, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Bassmanbob - I have read through this thread and I am curious about your mystery leaking. I looked up the Enve wheels you are using to understand their specifications a bit more. It appears that the Vittoria 30mm tubeless tires you are using are “approved” by Enve to work with their hookless rims so that is not likely your problem. But really I was reading up on them to see if they mentioned much about how they are taped from the factory (or if they are like Fulcrum and Mavic UST with un-drilled rim interior). They made no mention of the tape, 🤔….

When there is all this discussion of air leaking from the valve I remember other tubeless troubleshooting threads I have read where folks mention that air loss from the valve stem can be from anywhere in the rim! This is because the top of the valve stem is not meant to be airtight and any air that leaks into the rim extrusion interior will escape where it needs to. So I would ask if you could talk about your rim tape configuration for these wheels. It may be just like my tubeless aluminum road wheels (DT Swiss R460) where you may not get an airtight seal the first go around. If you visually inspect your tape you may see actual tracts of sealant where it is migrating under unsealed sections of the tape, attempting but not fully succeeding at creating an air tight seal. Or, you might not see these tracts until you peel back the tape altogether and at this point your are committing to fully re-tape the rim. But if when you remove all of the tape you see sealant residue around any of your spoke holes, this is the source of your leak, and your tubeless valve may have been perfectly sealed all along.

Hope this moves the conversation forward…
I understand what you are saying. Thanks.
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