JohnJ80

Yeah, Garmin's software is probably really difficult code base to deal with at this point with many years of extending it and lots of versions for different computers. I'd imagine that it's going to be extremely difficult to make any serious architectural changes.

The K2 is now a couple of years old if I did the math right. I'd say that a K3 can't be far away and HH would be nuts if they didn't just make the entire battery life issue go away. The electronics are going to take up no more space and a modest increase in thickness or investing in a conformally battery pack would pay huge dividends in terms of battery life.

I have the current K2 and if I go by the fuel gauge over a couple hour ride or so, extrapolating that out will take it to 10 hours. If I start it up and let it run on the kitchen table until it won't boot anymore, I get 13 hours. Actual life in practice is going to be somewhere in the middle. The K2 has a 5000mAh battery, it will also charge while running, so carrying a small battery adds a ton of life to the K2 if you're out longer than the 10-13 hour range. It charges pretty fast too with USB-C.

Seattle Forrest

​​​​​​If HH can make the battery issue go away, they seem like the compelling choice for anybody who doesn't have Di2 and D Fly. The screen is much better, it sounds like navigation is better. Price is a lot better.

Competition is good for everybody.

JohnJ80

Yep, I think that is a good characterization of this.

I can also say this - with the rapid code sprints and aggressive update cycle that HH is holding too, you do see variation in the battery performance with some updates. These are usually related to a feature add where the software has impacted the battery consumption. Once identified, they typically are able to whittle it down. So it is fair to say that battery consumption is front and center in their development but a lot of that takes iteration with actual user usage to identify and close out the bugs.

I think what Garmin has done with both the 1030, the add on 1030 battery and mount and now especially the 1040 have made battery consumption a complete non-issue in their computers. There is no more room for incremental improvement on this for them anymore. The normal progression of chip development usually provides up to a 30% decrease in power consumption by generation. HH and others should be able to leverage that in the next generation and by adding a little battery. For example, presuming HH is at 10 hours now with battery, by going to the next generation chip should get them to around 13 hours with same battery capacity and same display etc.... Adding slightly more volume to the K2 form factor to go from their current battery to another 30% of battery size would get them to 16 hours with no significant increase in size overall. Bottom line - battery consumption will become a non issue in computers that are introduced over the next 3 years. At some point Garmin will have to address their display and probably take a major whack at their software.

Right now, I'd have to say that the Karoo and the top end Garmin's are equivalent for most data recording and typical reporting. HH has the advantage in displaying it for the rider with a better display. If you want to see 2nd level ride dynamic metrics *while riding* then Garmin is the choice and you will need to pay the fairly stiff premium for that. If your primary interest is navigation, then I think HH is the better choice.

You're also right - the only time the Di2 issue matters to a Karoo user is if they invested in the Di2 ANT+ interface (which is not cheap either). A 1040 is $600 (standard) to $750 (solar). The K2 is $400. If you want to see your Di2 shifting status on your bike display on a current premium computer you'll need to pay a $200-350 premium for the computer plus an additional $100 for the Shimano interface (last time I bought one, may be cheaper now). So that is a $300-450 premium just to see your shifting status on the display. That's pretty steep.

Steve B.

Well stated. I think that with the 1040 moving to an incredible 40+ hrs. in battery life (if that turns out to be accurate), HH really needs to get their units up to 20 hrs, or so, at least what the 1030 is capable of. I suspect this will be the Karoo 3 and truth be told its got room to expand without people complaining as its a nice size currently. I can say that I suspect 45 hrs. on the Solar 1040 will be real, I get 20 on my 1030 and its 3-4 years old already. The frequent software updates on K2 is great PR. Not every update fixed critical issues and/or adds useful features. There are many requests that have not gotten acted upon and I only update as its my nature, not because they are giving a few really great feature improvements. Not this update though as I'm a Di2 user.

pdlamb

I'm going to be curious to see how you get to 45 hours on the solar 1040. Is this riding 9-5 multiple days in the Mojave desert without recharging, or riding nonstop sunrise until 2 a.m. day after tomorrow on a rainy brevet without recharging?

OK, I suspect I know the answer. But the degradation curve is going to be interesting. How is the battery life affected by clouds or trees, or what is the lifetime for a 24 hour ride -- and then, midsummer or late autumn?

Steve B.

45 hours is what Garmin states in the specifications. Remains to be see, haven't yet read of any real testing.

JohnJ80

Ray Maker did an in depth review where this is addressed.
I think Ray Maker also validated this and said it's about right.So it seems that the solar capabilities are real. It also looks like you can sleep the unit and put it in the sun and, presuming bright sun, get back a lot. You'd have to do the math, but in the right weather conditions, you might hardly ever need to plug it in. You are, however, going to pay heavily for the capability. Not sure that's worth it - it isn't for me, I guess.


J.

Steve B.

JohnJ80

I agree. They understand solar powered low power electronics. A big part of that is low power computing and that’s the other side of this. They have that figured out too. But it also explains some of the sluggish response and long compute/reroute times on Garmin products when compared to smartphone responsiveness.

I recently bought an Epix gen2 as backup to my bike computer on some special tours I’m planning. The performance vs consumption is pretty amazing.

But that sort of makes my other point about performance somewhat indirectly. All of those mountains of low power code are going to be very difficult to move to a more high performance and high display resolution product. I think that’s why we see the major feature of the 1040 be a hardware feature instead of a serious remake of the code.

Seattle Forrest

I think Garmin has low power consumption down, more than they have a mastery of solar. I honestly don't know if they do solar better or worse than anybody else, the Epix and some Fenix 6/7 and Forerunner models get amazing battery life without solar. I think the sun is just icing on the cake?

Seattle Forrest

I saw a thread on another site where people were speculating about the possibility of Garmin allowing people to write widgets for their hardware using other languages like Python or Java. One person said it will likely be Monkey C for the foreseeable future because it lets them build compilers for the specific architecture their chips use. The guy said his battery died on a hike once, and the activity was still saved because Garmin knows when it can interrupt the process. From what I know as a long time Garmin user, who writes code for a living, there are a lot of optimizations in these devices.

That kind of specificity doesn't port! And these issues can be difficult to code around, which means you don't get much done in a day.

JohnJ80

Yep. I'm sure that's why the big feature is a hardware one. What's that Chinese Proverb? "The most important thing is that which is not being said." True here,I think. Where's the new whiz bang double resolution display? What about the brand new snappy trim user interface? What about.... in other words, all the things that weren't being introduced that their competition is pressing them on is the part that "wasn't being said."

At some point, and they're probably near it, their decades of code becomes a prison of sorts. After having been involved in the launch of two new bike computers from different manufacturers, it's clear that building a bike computer is deceptively complicated and difficult. While Garmin understands that better than most, all those lessons learned and incorporated in code by engineers long gone, makes a rewrite of their code a giant nightmare. The competition is starting to close in and if they hit a speed bump while doing this rewrite, it could be the end of their market leadership. Let me put it this way - I'm glad that's not my decision to make as an engineering VP right now.

J.

Seattle Forrest

The 1030+ is no longer on clearance, Garmin and everybody else is asking $599 again. I can't imagine who would buy one at that price when the 1040 base model is the same price.

Badger6

Well, I guess that answers the question for those looking at a Garmin Edge, buy the 1040 or wait for the 840, should follow sometime next year.

njkayaker

Some one who trusts the 1030+ and needs it and doesn't want to risk the teething issues with the 1040 (and there are some), I suppose.

If you only have a few 1030+ left to sell, it makes some sense to not sell it at a discount (you can always do that later).

I don't recall the price of the 1030 popping up like this with the release of the 1030+.

I wonder if Garmin provided a rebate to cover the reduced price. (It doesn't seem fair to sellers to have them eat the $150 reduction.)

Badger6

I’ll be really honest…the teething issues that are being claimed seem like urban legends. I see complaints all around the corners of the internets where this stuff is discussed, and they all seem like recycled gripes about previous Edge models. If peopel hate Garmin so much, why do they keep buying them? I have not had a single sensor drop (and I am running an HRM, PM, speed sensor, and radar), a lock up/freeze, or random shutdown. Compared literally every prior Edge model Garmin released, the 1040 (solar in my case) has been exceptionally stable and has performed as expected. There is literally no reason to buy a 1030+ is the 1040 is the same price. Likewise, if the 1030+ is meeting the needs of its user, there is also no reason to buy a 1040.

njkayaker

Missing the point.

I agree people tend to exaggerate teething stuff. But there are definitely some.

It doesn’t make much sense to buy a 1030+ at the same price as a 1040 (I also didn’t say otherwise). People do things that don’t make much sense all the time.

In any case, the current price of the 1030+ is $600.

Why?

JohnJ80

definitely not urban legends.

I’ve had those issues (and more) with newly released computers from Garmin and from Wahoo. Turns out that interfacing to sensors over RF is nontrivial and problematic. Not all sensors meet the claimed ANT+ profiles and there are then problems.

if you haven’t had problems, I’d say you’re lucky (or naive).

Besides all of that, it’s a computer with complex real time software. The idea that there would not be problems is naive. Given the frequent bug fix releases, it’s obvious someone is having enough trouble for the company to go about and assign resources to fix the problem, QA it, and then release it. So claiming it’s an “urban legend” is pretty inaccurate.

Seattle Forrest

It sounds like the 1040 basically works the same as the 1030. They've dropped some new features like stamina and probably soon training readiness and morning report if you have a compatible watch. They're using a different GPS chipset and there are no doubt other hardware differences, hopefully Garmin has abstracted them. There are a lot of reasons the non solar version would go pretty smoothly.

njkayaker

Yes, The 1030+ went pretty smoothly. Except for the downgrade in performance of the grade detection (it's slower on the 1030+) which Garmin dismissed as being "within expectations".

Badger6

Direct use comparison: it works a lot better. Navigating is much easier with the speed that it calculates...at the start of the route and mid-route, if you go off course. The option to pause navigation if you go off route is handy as well, so instead of a blank or frozen view, it continues to show your movement.

The other features you've described, like stamina and cycling ability, are interesting. Not what I'd call precise, but useful nonetheless. Just like the recommended recovery time.

As for grade detection, I'll be honest, all the complaining I see from people is confusing to me. Why are folks looking at their Garmin wondering the grade? Is there something magical knowing that you're on a 3% vs 5% vs 7% grade? I've ridden up a lot of steep hills, none of which has a consistently x% grade, and I don't need. a computer to tell me its pitched from 5 to 15 and back to 7, then down to 3. Just choose your gear, and keep pedaling, dammit.

njkayaker

Is there "something magical knowing" your speed is whatever?

While some people are puzzled by it, some people still use it. Though, probably very few of them likely see it as being "magical" like you are supposing they do.

No one appeared to complain with the performance of the grade measurement on the 1030. There doesn't seem to be any reason why it should be worse in the 1030+ (there are lots of complaints there).

I've found it interesting (if not "magical") in a few cases where it indicated that a short piece was steeper than it looked,

Troul 

i just want to know where I am going is not going to lead me to dead end without options that are not 45MPH + zones. Heart rate, Ride Time & Distance Traveled are other things I would like to know. I dont care to know what elevation I am heading towards, just did, or have done better/worse on. Neither do I care to know my power output, oxygen estimates, did I bring a banana, & if the coffee pot is still on.

Badger6

It is intriguing. I agree. I was on a ramp yesterday that was signed as 10%, and in fact the Garmin said it was 11%. Maybe the sign was wrong. Either way, whether it tells me the instant the pitch goes from 9 to 10 back to 9 is not really that important to me, even if it lags a bit. That at a glance I can get a sense of the steepness on hills that aren't marked (most of them), that's been good enough for me in practice. It strikes me that 1040 does a better job with gradients than the 1030 (cannot compare to the + since I never used on). This could be due to the gyroscope (tilt sensor?) it has on board, and it not depending solely on GPS and the the barometric altimeter. Same for speed, using GPS to know your speed is never very accurate, due to nature of GPS signals and how weak they actually are. Running a speed sensor helps, but even then, the speed seems to "bounce" around a bit.

njkayaker

Maybe, one was rounded down and one was rounded up. Maybe, one's an average over a longer run (the sign is, very likely, over a longer run).

This isn't really what people are complaining about (what you are describing would be hard to notice. It's much bigger changes and the device gets stuck on a lower number when it's clear it's steeper.

As I keep saying, no one really had any complaints about the 1030.

Does it have an "tilt sensor"? Seems unlikely. There is a accelerometer (used for the incident detection and jump detection).

The problem with using the GPS for speed is that GPS speed is computed from distance and you can get 10+ foot errors in distance that cause big hops in speed. The speed sensor data is much more smooth and it's being obtained at a higher rate (which means it can measure changes in speed quicker). With GPS. higher speeds means the differences in locations of the data points is bigger (bigger than the 10+ errors). The speed sensor doesn't have the issue of being more variable at lower speed.

It's normal for people to be interested in grade and it's normal to want it to be measured reasonably accurately and quickly.

It's fine if you aren't interested but it's not reasonable for you to imagine that people's normal interest is abnormal ("magical"). You also imagine that they are worried about small differences.

That is, you failing to understand why other people might be interested in something rather normal isn't their problem.