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Old 05-28-21, 06:20 AM
  #876  
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I stick with data either way, provable data. When I've spent the couple hours after rides doing Excel formulas for the virtual elevation modeling, I had a method I've used in cLEAN systematic problem solving in manufacturing.......I call it the "light switch".

You do the old thing, try the new thing, then try the old thing again. If you can generate an "on/off/on" pattern, you've proven you can recreate the problem.

With basic aero testing of equipment or position, if you don't care about the REAL value of CdA and only improvements.......all you have to prove for each comparison is a definitive and repeated pattern of "this one is better than that one".

Too many folks just make lots of back to back runs on the same item, then the next item. Going back to the first item introduces a piece of data so you prove the pattern.

We'll see! In a few training rides after the regional 40k championships I did realize I had gotten a tad lazy on the bike posture wise. Not with head/helmet, but rotating the hips. Maybe a couple watts there? Dunno.

I also bought a $30 pack of fit items for the Trinity so I can move coordinates around for testing a little better.

I'll probably do photo/video in the shed of a couple fit ideas to try, put a text bubble on each photo with the fit coords and reminders (rotate hips), then do the field testing of it.

I have a "good" fit right now, but it's mostly been eyeballed by video. I haven't had the extra fit equipment to do field aero/fit testing. Only aero testing of things like my helmets and wheels.

Since the lump on top of the bike matters most, I feel I might find up to 20w there! We'll see.
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Old 06-03-21, 04:46 PM
  #877  
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Spent the day with my fitter. He uses the Reutl video analysis, so it was a 5-hour affair to dial in two bikes. We made some changes to both road and TT bike in Jan of 20, then COVID hit, and I never made it back until now. A year of work on mobility on my hips and hamstrings allowed us to move the seat up 9mm with no change in the front end. My back flattened out a ton. Last Jan. we also changed my bars from the stock speed concept ski bends that have no rotational adjustment to the 51 Speed Shop Ultimate bars. My rudimentary analysis showed that they were slower, so we switch the 51 Speed Shop ski bends. Feels like a new bike and can't wait to see what it does for power and speed.

I was surprised with the 9mm increase in saddle height, but the video analysis showed a similar change to my road bike. My hips were/are twisted up and I was having extension challenges, so I've spent the last year plus working on it and it looks like all that work paid off. Still have more work to do on the right side, but that change year over year is pretty dramatic. Pretty excited to see it pay off.
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Old 06-04-21, 06:52 AM
  #878  
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Originally Posted by ntnyln View Post
A year of work on mobility on my hips and hamstrings allowed us to move the seat up 9mm with no change in the front end.

I was surprised with the 9mm increase in saddle height, but the video analysis showed a similar change to my road bike. My hips were/are twisted up and I was having extension challenges
The ability to rotate the hips to get more into that prone recumbent position is both more aero and makes more power, if you can handle it physically.

So, not surprising if you improved your range of motion it opened up that posibility.

One fit phenomenon I have a personal theory about is that when folks look at the hips/legs/foot angles in a video, they need to slightly rotate their point of view forward about the focal point of the bottom bracket. If a person rotates their hips as they should, your pedal stroke looks different than the hip rotation in the road position due to that rotation. So, it may appear like somebody is toe pointing and should lower their saddle.......when reality looks a bit different if you rotate your eyes just a hair.

Best way I can say it is top dead center moves from dead noon to more like 1 o'clock if looking from the drive side.
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Old 06-10-21, 01:01 PM
  #879  
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Notio is on and configured. Golden Cheetah Notio up and running. Calibration out/back done. Numbers looking rational.

My CdA just farting around on out/back tries to learn to use the thing showed that while wearing just road helmet and flappy jersey and such I was still reasonably slippery. But, no doubt room to find some watts.

One question about the cockpit dimensions stuff. I am confused. Is the 15 degrees the pads and also from pads to end of extensions? Or is it pads 15 degrees and then you get 10cm vert from pads to top of extension?

If I try out some stuff, that's one thing that could affect what things I try. I thought it was the latter, 15 deg pad and 10cm because that's how Ganna is running those funny extensions.

I have new extra Giant stack spacers to mess with. Just may need some extra long bolts. I want to try the two extremes of stack height with my position then incrementally hone in from there as a first start item.
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Old 06-17-21, 05:33 PM
  #880  
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It finally came. My tailor made nopinz flow suit. Being shorter the sleeves and legs are always too long for me, so I figured if I was going to spend all that money for the suit, another $80 to get it to fit right wasn't outrageous. It fits like a glove. I went with the 2x track pockets on the back since TT's and stage races around here usually have numbers on the side and flips depending on the race.

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Old 06-17-21, 05:58 PM
  #881  
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sweet dude, nice SS
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Old 06-17-21, 06:37 PM
  #882  
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I have a NoPinz and like it a lot.
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Old 08-15-21, 04:00 PM
  #883  
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Because I have more money than brains, I just put a deposit on a frameset for a super-duper TT bike. The frame won't be here until like November, but that won't stop me from planning the build. I have two things I've been going back and forth on and would welcome some insight if you have.

First, 1x or 2x? Our main TT's around here are flat to rolling. There is one that has a big climb, but I never do it. Most masters nationals TT courses seem to be mostly flat, so a 1x seems like a solid choice, but where I train, nothing is flat, and a 55-56/44 would be annoying at best. The only 1x experience I have is with a mtb that I'm selling because I rode it all of 6 times in the 6 years I've had it.

If I go 2x, that brings up the second question, I've been a two-button guy for shifting, but I'm beginning to feel like it makes shifting too awkward on rolling courses since I have to move my hands to get to the buttons. Is anyone using the 1 button set up? What are your thoughts? Any issue with shifting in general, especially with non-standard (55+) chainrings?
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Old 08-15-21, 05:36 PM
  #884  
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Originally Posted by ntnyln View Post
Because I have more money than brains, I just put a deposit on a frameset for a super-duper TT bike. The frame won't be here until like November, but that won't stop me from planning the build. I have two things I've been going back and forth on and would welcome some insight if you have.

First, 1x or 2x? Our main TT's around here are flat to rolling. There is one that has a big climb, but I never do it. Most masters nationals TT courses seem to be mostly flat, so a 1x seems like a solid choice, but where I train, nothing is flat, and a 55-56/44 would be annoying at best. The only 1x experience I have is with a mtb that I'm selling because I rode it all of 6 times in the 6 years I've had it.

If I go 2x, that brings up the second question, I've been a two-button guy for shifting, but I'm beginning to feel like it makes shifting too awkward on rolling courses since I have to move my hands to get to the buttons. Is anyone using the 1 button set up? What are your thoughts? Any issue with shifting in general, especially with non-standard (55+) chainrings?
I run 2x 56/42 11-30 to train and 1x 60 14-28 to race flat. The big 2 button ext di2 and 1 button brakes. Works fine. I would prefer DA 2 button brakes and single button compact ext shifters though. I may just custom form the ext shifter into my AC ext grips. Lose that worthless 1.5Ē of length.

I have two of the Aerocoach nopinz collaboration suits. They are nice, but be aware they advertise only equal to the more affordable version at like 25mph. The AC one shines at 28+. I am barely 28 at 10mi pace. So chose it.

I just bought some tools to quick change the new cockpit hardware for some Notio testing. Exciting. Kinda. Sucks to do testing at threshold. Ruins a training ride and day.
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Old 08-16-21, 05:04 PM
  #885  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I run 2x 56/42 11-30 to train and 1x 60 14-28 to race flat.
I'm guessing you do your own wrenching? Do you pull off the derailleur each time you go 1x?
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Old 08-16-21, 07:38 PM
  #886  
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Originally Posted by ntnyln View Post
I'm guessing you do your own wrenching? Do you pull off the derailleur each time you go 1x?
Yes. Di2 makes it easy. Keep two different length chains.
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Old 08-20-21, 04:29 PM
  #887  
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burnthesheep How has the work with the notio coming? Are you able to get workable numbers with it? How do you validate the numbers that come out if it? I've done no formal aero testing, but that's probably the next frontier for me if I want to eek out that last bit of speed. And on a side note, my LBS told me that the new 12 speed DA doesn't work with two button shifters and I'm going to try to get it for my new build, so that answers that question.
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Old 08-23-21, 09:28 AM
  #888  
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Originally Posted by ntnyln View Post
Because I have more money than brains, I just put a deposit on a frameset for a super-duper TT bike. The frame won't be here until like November, but that won't stop me from planning the build. I have two things I've been going back and forth on and would welcome some insight if you have.

First, 1x or 2x? Our main TT's around here are flat to rolling. There is one that has a big climb, but I never do it. Most masters nationals TT courses seem to be mostly flat, so a 1x seems like a solid choice, but where I train, nothing is flat, and a 55-56/44 would be annoying at best. The only 1x experience I have is with a mtb that I'm selling because I rode it all of 6 times in the 6 years I've had it.

If I go 2x, that brings up the second question, I've been a two-button guy for shifting, but I'm beginning to feel like it makes shifting too awkward on rolling courses since I have to move my hands to get to the buttons. Is anyone using the 1 button set up? What are your thoughts? Any issue with shifting in general, especially with non-standard (55+) chainrings?
I am somewhat sensitive to cadence when racing (especially when fatigued at the end of the race) and find that even a 54/44 11/23 10 speed setup is not close spaced enough for a flat course. We used to have a race that started with a climb and had a stair cased descent where a 54/11 was not enough gear. The benefit of a 2 chain ring setup is that it can be tuned for both training and racing and different courses. I guess a 1x12 can be tuned to an extent and having both a 1x and 2x available may be the best.
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Old 08-23-21, 10:24 AM
  #889  
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Originally Posted by ntnyln View Post
burnthesheep How has the work with the notio coming? Are you able to get workable numbers with it? How do you validate the numbers that come out if it? I've done no formal aero testing, but that's probably the next frontier for me if I want to eek out that last bit of speed. And on a side note, my LBS told me that the new 12 speed DA doesn't work with two button shifters and I'm going to try to get it for my new build, so that answers that question.
I have done the initial baseline and setup and ridden with it one ride doing some obvious things to force differences in CdA. It seemed to correlate.

About the time I got it I had gone on vacation. In time I was gone it got hot as balls outside. I am waiting for it to cool a little bit to setup a dedicated test day. I ordered a lot of cockpit hardware: spare stack spacers, bolts, two different bar and pad tilt blocks, some quick change tools, and put that all in a dedicated bag. I also had the task up front of finding a dependable test spot. Then writing my Excel sheet for statistical lap/setup control. So that I can do the box/whisker on each lap and compare each data set and prove out the smaller gains/losses.

I have located two test spots. One in the upper parking lot at the coliseum and another in a really really big two lane traffic circle the one town over. This was a LOT bigger project than I thought. Raleigh and surrounding ain't flat. Also being an older area not many circulcar, oval, or good out/back featured roads. I found some out/back stuff, but you want to avoid little small "bumps" in elevation that could give bad data. So a road that is sloped is OK so long as the slope is exactly same the entire way. The reason is accel and decel is a major contributor to errors. Those small bumps cause minute accel/decel disturbances.

Now that I'm setup, I'm ready to roll. Things to try: stack, extension tilt, pad width (may pop head up so need to test), and some socks/shoe/covers stuff. I will also be using it to hold a steady position across tests at some point and mess with tire pressures. You can convert the CdA delta to a change in CRR.

I hope to find maybe 10w total among everything. If I find that, I'll be happy.
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Old 08-23-21, 10:26 AM
  #890  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
I am somewhat sensitive to cadence when racing (especially when fatigued at the end of the race) and find that even a 54/44 11/23 10 speed setup is not close spaced enough for a flat course. We used to have a race that started with a climb and had a stair cased descent where a 54/11 was not enough gear. The benefit of a 2 chain ring setup is that it can be tuned for both training and racing and different courses. I guess a 1x12 can be tuned to an extent and having both a 1x and 2x available may be the best.
Then there's chasing KOM's in training. I spun out the 56/11 the other night down a hill then over a roller and rest of way down a hill in a training ride. Segment avg speed was 37mph and the max speed was 47mph for about 20 seconds. Don't have the gear, no KOM. Haha. None of the 52t front ring triathletes will be bagging that KOM.
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Old 08-23-21, 01:38 PM
  #891  
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burnthesheep You may need this to monitor changing Rho and weather conditions. https://kestrelinstruments.com/kestr...oaAqQWEALw_wcB
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Old 08-23-21, 05:35 PM
  #892  
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I've been listening to so many podcasts about these aerometers and reading a ton of stuff online and every discussion pretty much says it's a complicated mess that requires so many precise data points that precision is a challenge. One of the hardest things is finding the right course. On several pods, I've heard that while the Chung Method uses a loop, notio and aerotune work best on a windless 1k course (with appropriate runouts at either end). I want to jump in so bad I can taste it, but I'm nowhere near able to commit the time to learn it and get it right. Maybe if I had a tutor to speed the learning curve.

Hermes With the smaller Di2 front derailleur on the 9200, I'm leaning heavily towards 2x. I just have to wait to see what chainrings become available for that setup after it's released. Good thing is that my first TT won't be until the spring, and I might need all that time to find something.
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Old 08-25-21, 06:25 AM
  #893  
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Originally Posted by ntnyln View Post
I've been listening to so many podcasts about these aerometers and reading a ton of stuff online and every discussion pretty much says it's a complicated mess that requires so many precise data points that precision is a challenge. One of the hardest things is finding the right course. On several pods, I've heard that while the Chung Method uses a loop, notio and aerotune work best on a windless 1k course (with appropriate runouts at either end). I want to jump in so bad I can taste it, but I'm nowhere near able to commit the time to learn it and get it right. Maybe if I had a tutor to speed the learning curve.

Hermes With the smaller Di2 front derailleur on the 9200, I'm leaning heavily towards 2x. I just have to wait to see what chainrings become available for that setup after it's released. Good thing is that my first TT won't be until the spring, and I might need all that time to find something.
Having been able to sniff out things with the Excel sheet Chung method, I will say that I think the complainers are ones trying to justify a single watt at 30mph between pairs of aero socks.

Not folks trying to find larger gains.

The smaller the gain, the more precise your setup needs to be. Even for a tunnel. Which is why lots of people criticize products claiming a single watt at 30mph. How exactly was your experiment setup so well to catch that?

That's where you get into eliminating causes for error and doing lots of laps. I think the velodrome testers with Notios and people who do laps are in the right idea because you can generate a ton of data points (one CdA dot per lap) then plot the box/whisker plots per run.

I think an obvious thing to try for a triathlete on long course would be helmet and position choice relative to how often they need to get out of aero for nutrition, corners, or other. They could do long Z2 workouts with the meter and see what the avg CdA comes out to over time. They could stand to save minutes of time over 5 hours ride time.
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Old 10-01-21, 12:29 PM
  #894  
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Initial Notio testing comments:

-Best case resolution is probably going to be about .005.

-The algorithms don't seem to like unpredictable elevation or accel/decel. Meaning, your road surface needs to be level. As in, it can be up/down 1%. But the up/down need to stay that much for periods of about 30 seconds at a time. If you have little pimples of road features slowing you for just 10 seconds or so once in a while.......the calculation messes up a bit.

-So far, I think the bang for buck if you MUST test at your target speed will be one of two options: out/back with record only downhill on a known super steady grade.........or a small loop like large neighborhood circle without elevation changes.

Either way, the data are going to be cleaner the less delta speed/power you have for your laps. The freaking velodrome folks have it made.

I've found a 0.4mi long circle down east with zero elevation. Just need to go try it one weekend morning when there is no wind. Too windy to go at lunch time. I may go at lunch anyway one day because I still want to be sure it will work.
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Old 10-02-21, 05:07 AM
  #895  
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Thumbs up on your efforts to figure this out. I've been following that thread on ST and it has done nothing but convince me that I don't have the time or extra energy to try and figure all of that out right now, but I need to so bad to reach my goals. Not sure what I'm gonna do. We've moved into fall here and I'm waiting in my new bike anyway, so maybe a winter education process before digging in come spring. I'll definitely be leaning into you for some tips.
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Old 10-03-21, 05:00 PM
  #896  
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Are all the pro TT setups really with the extensions level or under the saddle height?

Looking at some there ainít no way it is. Unless it is a photo illusion.

What about aged riders who run big stacks due to just being old and less flexible?

Just thought this other day as thought I heard this was a ďthingĒ you more official types had to do.
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Old 10-13-21, 07:57 AM
  #897  
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I need to do a better job logging equipment and wind conditions per what run I made. Strava or whatever. Last night's little club run, the Devil's run (6.66 miles), I was 5 sec faster on a slower night. Combo of temp and humidity was just a slower night. But I wore the skinsuit and TT helmet. So would have assumed to gained more. I might have had the triathlon hydration system on for the prior run and also had the disc on the back. So, things that make a solid wattage difference needing to be logged.

PR for sure, but just felt like it should have been faster.
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Old 10-22-21, 02:38 PM
  #898  
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