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Training Status??? (IV)

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Training Status??? (IV)

Old 12-12-20, 03:57 PM
  #15651  
burnthesheep
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Did the club/team TT route yesterday, full kit. With the new Aerocoach Nopinz skinsuit. That suit is money. Makes my Bodypaint look like trash. I need data, but it is stupid fast. I got 3rd all time on the route. I was a whole 50w lower on power than the guy in 2nd all time, a skinny guy like me. Guy in 2nd and KOM are from other clubs. One a Cat 1/2 racer. Other, no idea. I had 2nd wrapped up, then a car passed me and stopped 100yds later to turn. Killing a nice downhill. Earlier I lost a few seconds waiting to see if a car was going straight or turning. Probably lost 10 seconds for the combo of the two. The downhill I even had time when coasting to throw an arm up of "let's move it!!!". Only 25 seconds off the KOM.

I didn't eat well for breakfast, and am carrying some intensity fatigue from this week.........so was down about 12w from target for that distance.

I'm pleased. I didn't "recon" enough and also lost time looking up for the last turn. There's two similar looking schools, it's after the second one. Not the first. If I had memorized the distance to the turn, I could have stayed down and powering. Mistake.

One more before terrible weather time of year and TT bike goes onto Zwift. Going to do the TT program on there to see how much I can gain horsepower wise.

20w more for next year at my CdA and my racing class would be pretty nasty. I bet 20w more horsepower and a few tiny tweaks and I can get close on a hot/humid day to the KOM.

Either way, the ride raised a few eyebrows in the club/team among the recent converts to TT riding.

Next year for that 10ish mile distance I really want to be putting out 300's in power. Not upper 200's. That helmet/suit really gain even more with just a gnat's ass more speed. The CdA drops as the speed picks up more, so I can go faster on not quite as much extra power. So I have a great motivator to train now.
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Old 12-12-20, 06:56 PM
  #15652  
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Originally Posted by hubcyclist
I hang out on the TR forum quite a bit, people love to argue about whether the ramp test works for them or not and what the "best" protocol is (one faction are adherents to the Kolie Moore FTP test which is a TTE effort). Anyhow, maybe you can set yourself closer to your 20min outdoor result and be ok. I know I always crap out on the ramp, I kind of just play things by ear and eschew formal testing these days
I think some of this might be due to a calibration issue. I was experimenting running both TR and Zwift at the same time, so I used my Quarq power for Zwift and the trainer power for TR and the trainer was pretty low in comparison. After about 10 minutes I ran the calibration on the trainer and that got it to within a few watts of each other.

Finished the workout, which was supposed to be a threshold workout but it felt like low sweetspot. So that is another indicator that the test wasn’t great. I’m going to try another ramp test in a day or two.
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Old 12-12-20, 11:11 PM
  #15653  
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Originally Posted by caloso
I think some of this might be due to a calibration issue. I was experimenting running both TR and Zwift at the same time, so I used my Quarq power for Zwift and the trainer power for TR and the trainer was pretty low in comparison. After about 10 minutes I ran the calibration on the trainer and that got it to within a few watts of each other.

Finished the workout, which was supposed to be a threshold workout but it felt like low sweetspot. So that is another indicator that the test wasn’t great. I’m going to try another ramp test in a day or two.
You can also look up how TR calculated the value and use the data from the zwift ride to do it.
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Old 12-13-20, 01:57 PM
  #15654  
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Officially finished SSB1 HV today with final endurance ride, back to the sweet spot on Tuesday!
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Old 12-13-20, 04:19 PM
  #15655  
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Originally Posted by waterrockets
Thanks! Good to see familiar "faces" in here. I think it will be good to get back in here and see that others are still doing this nonsense too.
I got back on this board earlier this year after a decade away and wondered what happened to some of the old familiar faces. The week I rejoined, I learned Pcad had just been killed after being hit by a car. I saw Psimet's wheel business was going strong, and wondered what had happened to Waterrockets. Good to see you back on here.
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Old 12-13-20, 08:09 PM
  #15656  
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Redid the ramp test today after a proper warmup and calibration of both the Quarq and the trainer, and results were much more in line with what I would have expected: that is 10w lower than my outside 20 minute test. Which is what I estimated in the first place!

Hah.
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Old 12-13-20, 09:39 PM
  #15657  
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Went out for a ride today and just wasn't feeling it.
It was too nice to turn around so I ended up going 40 miles anyway. Felt slow the entire time but I guess some days you're the nail.

Hours have been down the last two weeks so I guess this makes sense.
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Old 12-14-20, 12:35 PM
  #15658  
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7 hours, 120 miles and 320 TSS. Nice weather and great outdoor riding.

We ride the same routes week after week but change up the structure of the workout. We have a 34 mile route and my kilojoules are about the same independent of the structure. Finishing time, TSS and NP may change but Kj stays pretty constant suggesting the Kj production is directly proportional to the distance ridden. And my SRM has been recently calibrated and serviced by SRM. Interesting data.
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Old 12-14-20, 02:30 PM
  #15659  
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Originally Posted by caloso
Redid the ramp test today after a proper warmup and calibration of both the Quarq and the trainer, and results were much more in line with what I would have expected: that is 10w lower than my outside 20 minute test. Which is what I estimated in the first place!

Hah.
if you have a power meter you should use that as source of power in TR and in Zwift. No need to calibrate trainer and always consistent data with what you see outside.

With a Wahoo you can also setup the Wahoo itself to use power data from your power meter. This way you can tell TR and Zwift to just use the trainer for everything and still you will get power data from power meter.
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Old 12-14-20, 10:24 PM
  #15660  
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Originally Posted by mr_pedro
if you have a power meter you should use that as source of power in TR and in Zwift. No need to calibrate trainer and always consistent data with what you see outside.

With a Wahoo you can also setup the Wahoo itself to use power data from your power meter. This way you can tell TR and Zwift to just use the trainer for everything and still you will get power data from power meter.
TR has powermatch though? So the power meter should be controlling/driving the resistance from the erg in a sense.
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Old 12-14-20, 10:28 PM
  #15661  
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Here's what I'm up to this week:

M (today) - off, abs workout
T - 3 hrs zwift z2
W - 2 hrs TT bike with ~45 min of SST on Fiesta Island
Th - 6 hrs road (PTO)
F - off, abs workout
7 hours split over the weekend days somehow, not sure how yet, will play it by ear.

I'm also not sure why I'm doing this given the lack of imminent racing... Force of habit, I suppose. I'm looking forward to it, so I guess that's a good thing.
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Old 12-15-20, 01:14 AM
  #15662  
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche
TR has powermatch though? So the power meter should be controlling/driving the resistance from the erg in a sense.
Yes, if you connect TR to both the smart trainer and a power meter, it will do power matching. If TR wants you to do 200W, it will start by telling the trainer to apply 200W resistance, but it then looks at the power meter data to see if it is correct and makes adjustments to the trainer from that. The current power you see on the screen is always from the power meter.

You always want to use the same source to compute FTP and set interval intensity, as what you are using to perform the intervals.
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Old 12-15-20, 08:40 AM
  #15663  
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Diving back into the ole sweet spot with SSB2 HV, subbed out the ramp test, instead doing 5x10 between 88-94% at slightly higher FTP (5w), went well!
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Old 12-15-20, 09:35 AM
  #15664  
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I "think" I set my ftp too low for starting some Zwift training workouts. Normally I have it set a 280 or so for road. For TT I did the first workout (30/30's and ramp to threshold) at a % of that 280w I thought would bring it down to an ftp of about 262. I did 252 for an hour outdoors a month or two back.

The workout had you do 8x 30/30 in two sets. My HR for both sets never got above "upper sweetspot". The lactic feeling was up there for sure. But I just felt it was "too easy".

I guess I'll just try them at 100% of my road bike Zwift ftp of 280w instead.

I mean, I felt I could have done an entire extra set.
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Old 12-15-20, 09:49 AM
  #15665  
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Originally Posted by ericcox
I got back on this board earlier this year after a decade away and wondered what happened to some of the old familiar faces. The week I rejoined, I learned Pcad had just been killed after being hit by a car. I saw Psimet's wheel business was going strong, and wondered what had happened to Waterrockets. Good to see you back on here.
Thanks -- good to see some of the same folks around here too.

Originally Posted by caloso
Redid the ramp test today after a proper warmup and calibration of both the Quarq and the trainer, and results were much more in line with what I would have expected: that is 10w lower than my outside 20 minute test. Which is what I estimated in the first place!
Interesting - do you think the previous was an off day for some reason, or head wasn't in it?
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Old 12-15-20, 03:18 PM
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My wife picked out the TTT workout for Fiesta from our coach’s playbook. 3 sets of 5x(1’ z5/z6, 2’ z2) 8’ rest between sets. We did these together but not drafting and I let her set the pace that put me at 280 to 320 watts for the 1’ segments. I felt great doing these and got a fast recovery. I could have done higher power but this was perfect.
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Old 12-15-20, 03:29 PM
  #15667  
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Swapped my T and W workouts so I was also on the TT bike out on Fiesta this morning. 2x20' of SST, just feeling it out more. Starting to feel a lot better and a lot more at home in position! I have some tilt block adapters (15 degree) for the extensions that I haven't installed yet. They will add a little bit of stack, but I'm thinking of adding them without removing any spacers and seeing how I feel a little higher up.
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Old 12-15-20, 03:30 PM
  #15668  
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Originally Posted by waterrockets
Thanks -- good to see some of the same folks around here too.



Interesting - do you think the previous was an off day for some reason, or head wasn't in it?
No, I think it was definitely a calibration issue. I have a Kinetic on-wheel trainer and it definitely needs to be calibrated often, especially when it's cold. When I did the first TR ramp test, I used the Kinetic power input but I just brain farted and forgot to calibrate it first.

A couple of rides later I was playing around with using TR and Zwift simultaneously. I ran Zwift through AppleTV, using the power data from my Quarq, and TrainerRoad through my iPad using the power data from the trainer. And that's when I could see the huge discrepancy between the two power sources and I remembered that I had forgotten to calibrate the trainer before the first ramp test. So, mystery solved.

Last edited by caloso; 12-16-20 at 11:42 AM. Reason: clarified
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Old 12-16-20, 07:39 AM
  #15669  
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Apple in their infinite wisdom making all their power cables magnetic......agrrhhhhh! It fell off mid-Zwift and the laptop died. I was in the last 30sec of the last rep of the last set. I retrieved the file for Strava/TP, but was still pissed. Oh well.

I am doing the workouts listed, but don't really understand the whole lower cadence or specific cadence drills versus just whatever you're comfortable with.

Anyone have any reasoning behind "75rpm for 5min, 80rpm for 5min, 85rpm for 5min" versus "whatever for 15min". I don't get it.
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Old 12-16-20, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
Apple in their infinite wisdom making all their power cables magnetic......agrrhhhhh! It fell off mid-Zwift and the laptop died. I was in the last 30sec of the last rep of the last set. I retrieved the file for Strava/TP, but was still pissed. Oh well.

I am doing the workouts listed, but don't really understand the whole lower cadence or specific cadence drills versus just whatever you're comfortable with.

Anyone have any reasoning behind "75rpm for 5min, 80rpm for 5min, 85rpm for 5min" versus "whatever for 15min". I don't get it.
New Apple MacBook Pro computers did away with the magnetic power connectors. Although, I think my old computer was saved a couple of times from being pulled off the table by me tripping over the power cable. YMMV.

With respect to cadence drills, there is no science that I am aware of that supports one cadence over another producing a better training effect. The coaches I have used except one prescribed over / under cadence work and low cadence work 55-60 rpm for strength training. The one comment that stuck with me was that one can always elect to spin slower but one has to train to spin faster. Generally, leg speed is an advantage with the proviso that we have gears so one can always adjust the gearing to reduce or increase rpm.

As a trackie, leg speed and neuromuscular strength are a requirement for most of the track races. Even in pursuit, one need leg speed after the start since too large a gear slows down lap one too much.

TL : DR. But for track / fixed gear riding, cadence is a red herring and old school dogma. IMO, programs that focus on cadence are suspect but hey any workout that an athlete will do, is potentially a good workout.

Last edited by Hermes; 12-16-20 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 12-16-20, 09:18 AM
  #15671  
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Pulling the plug for a few days. Head hasn't been in it and I've been procrastinating and skipping workouts so I'm just going to not schedule them. Trying to stick to a plan while jumping outside any time it's nice has been a bit rough lately. Likely won't hit my wattage goal before the new year but I might plan some intensity for the last 7-10 days then do a mini taper before testing again.

Originally Posted by burnthesheep
Apple in their infinite wisdom making all their power cables magnetic......agrrhhhhh! It fell off mid-Zwift and the laptop died. I was in the last 30sec of the last rep of the last set. I retrieved the file for Strava/TP, but was still pissed. Oh well.

I am doing the workouts listed, but don't really understand the whole lower cadence or specific cadence drills versus just whatever you're comfortable with.

Anyone have any reasoning behind "75rpm for 5min, 80rpm for 5min, 85rpm for 5min" versus "whatever for 15min". I don't get it.
I think it's too build muscle strength and fatigue resistance while simulating hills etc.

I'm not a huge fan of this stuff either because it annoys my knees. I assume a base cadence of 90 and adjust stuff based on that. Im running 165s right now so cadence work in the 70s is awful. I'm more like 100 cruising now not 90 so I raise the targets by 10-15 rpm.
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Old 12-16-20, 09:26 AM
  #15672  
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Here is an interesting video on high and low cadence training:

I like Dylan Johnson's training videos since he tries to back up what he is saying with real studies.
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Old 12-16-20, 09:30 AM
  #15673  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
Apple in their infinite wisdom making all their power cables magnetic......agrrhhhhh! It fell off mid-Zwift and the laptop died. I was in the last 30sec of the last rep of the last set. I retrieved the file for Strava/TP, but was still pissed. Oh well.
On the other hand my Windows PC decided to restart in the middle of my last FTP test. They are all a part of the great conspiracy to frustrate our workouts and make us slow!
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Old 12-16-20, 09:48 AM
  #15674  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
Apple in their infinite wisdom making all their power cables magnetic......agrrhhhhh! It fell off mid-Zwift and the laptop died. I was in the last 30sec of the last rep of the last set. I retrieved the file for Strava/TP, but was still pissed. Oh well.

I am doing the workouts listed, but don't really understand the whole lower cadence or specific cadence drills versus just whatever you're comfortable with.

Anyone have any reasoning behind "75rpm for 5min, 80rpm for 5min, 85rpm for 5min" versus "whatever for 15min". I don't get it.
I did the Build Me Up plan earlier this fall and it had a lot of different cadence targets that I found a little annoying at first, mostly because I have a dumb trainer so I have to do a lot of shifting to hit the power and cadence. After awhile I decided that the most important thing was to hit the power target, if I could do cadence too then great, but no biggie if not.
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Old 12-16-20, 03:44 PM
  #15675  
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Did 3x20ish (2 10min sections split by a min rest, Carillon +2 for TR people) averaging 90%, felt super easy, but my basement was also low 50's (my Garmin said 43 when I turned it on but I closed the window most of the way). Gonna see after a full week of the plan whether it's a little too easy and bump things up or just maintain the course, but first 2 workouts have felt great.
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