Carbon wheels: thinking Boyd, hub questions, other suggestions?
11-29-16, 01:27 PM
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11-29-16, 01:56 PM
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Are those their cyclocross wheels..wide and disc? That kinda makes sense, I guess. I'm looking for narrower rims anyway. On my gravel bike, I am tubeless with tubeless tires and NOX disc rims.
11-29-16, 02:01 PM
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@Chandne, @dalava
Those are for the new "all road" wheels that I ordered last night.
I'm guessing it's because of the hookless bead profile in the rim. Anyway, I was surprised to learn this, and since Chandne has been talking about wanting wheels, it's worth knowing. I won't be running GP4Ks on those wheels. I was planning to use Compass tires but now I don't know what I'll be using. It's not a huge deal for my needs, but it might be for yours.
Those are for the new "all road" wheels that I ordered last night.
I'm guessing it's because of the hookless bead profile in the rim. Anyway, I was surprised to learn this, and since Chandne has been talking about wanting wheels, it's worth knowing. I won't be running GP4Ks on those wheels. I was planning to use Compass tires but now I don't know what I'll be using. It's not a huge deal for my needs, but it might be for yours.
11-29-16, 02:04 PM
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Interesting stuff, actually. For my new wheels, I have to go relatively narrow due to the frame (2014 BMC SLR01). I have decided to go with the DT 440 rims. Hubs will be either T11s or CK R45s...not decided yet.
11-29-16, 02:14 PM
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Sorry for the scattered response. Might not even be useful to anyone in here at this point. But I'm posting it for completeness. The one on the right is the one that Enve says you must use tubless capable tires on, even if you use a tube.
11-29-16, 02:18 PM
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Be careful with the DT 440 rims... mounting tubeless tires on them requires patience to say the least. In fact I am running tubed on them because of it.
11-29-16, 02:37 PM
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Oh man, I was hoping to find some rims that did NOT have this problem, though my fear is not getting a tire bead off. I can "usually" get them on practically any rim. Thanks for telling me this. As much as I hate to not get a tubeless-ready rim, I wonder if I will have to, for this particular frame.
11-29-16, 07:56 PM
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Oh man, I was hoping to find some rims that did NOT have this problem, though my fear is not getting a tire bead off. I can "usually" get them on practically any rim. Thanks for telling me this. As much as I hate to not get a tubeless-ready rim, I wonder if I will have to, for this particular frame.
Of all the tires I tired to mount on them (Schwalbe One, Pro One, Hutchinson Fusion 3, Maxxis Padrone), the easiest to go on were the Hutchinsons, and the Maxxis was just impossible and I finally gave up.
11-29-16, 08:09 PM
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I can see using wider tape would help and the asymmetrical rear would build up better or I'd just use the symmetrical rim for the rear. I may just use regular clincher tires + tubes for a while. Do you have problems mounting/dismounting tires even with those?
11-29-16, 11:00 PM
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I have to ask, do you live where there are a lot of goat heads? The LBS has more hundreds of my $s in tubes, patch kits, and co2s than I want to think of just due to those. And it's even worse on my MTB. I have come back with over a dozen in my tires on a single ride. The tuffy strips there are a savior but every once in a while, one goes through the tuffy strip.
Flats....it's a sordid affair. There are just so many variables that one is left having to make generalizations in order to get anything done....with that - here are some of mine:
1. Flats for the vast majority of riders and racers I interact with are something that really seldom occurs. Personally I can't tell you the last time I had a flat while road riding but I am sure it was at least 3-4 years ago.
2. rim widths - allowing us to run wider tires at lower pressures absolutely helps reduce the number of flats one will experience.
3. Tires - they aren't crap anymore. They actually work. If in good shape and inflated correctly and selected for the rider and application correctly then yeah...bye bye flats.
4. Some riders will have flats. Always. Change the tires, rims, pressures, routes, application, use, terrain, etc....and some will still always end up with flats. Some say user error. Some blame some other factor. In reality some people just ride over stuff they shouldn't, lard butt their way over obstacles, and are generally not very aware of what they do to their bike. That's life.
5. Some locations of the country make riding road tires in a tubeless setup the preferred way to go. These areas (like areas with goathead thorns) also happen to be areas that have a lot of interesting things called mountains and enjoy a lot of that style of riding as well. That product went tubeless a while ago so carrying it to road is the only thing that makes sense to these riders.
6. Having spent a helluva lot of time riding all sorts of setups I have come to the following conclusions: tubulars are tubulars. Tubes are tubes. Tubeless is tubeless. The vast majority of riders (90%) will not be able to tell the difference if they aren't told before they ride it. The amount of money I charge a customer to set up their tubeless system far outweighs the cost of tubes for nearly the life of the same setup (for riders in my area). Latex tubes give a supple ride. Tires made to be tubeless do not give a supple ride. They are hard and stiff....huhuuhuhuhuhuhuhuh.
I am currently riding a disc cyclocross setup on mostly road conditions with high end gravel tires. Front wheel is latex tube. Rear is tubeless. Rear, since the switch, has felt dead.
BTW - as many already know the pressure you run your personal setup at will far outstrip the differences in any of these systems.
Nothing like taking a hardened racer and telling them to run at 85psi on their high performance tubulars instead of the 150 they have been riding for the last 20 years and then seeing their face after the race after they thank me for changing their life.
1. Flats for the vast majority of riders and racers I interact with are something that really seldom occurs. Personally I can't tell you the last time I had a flat while road riding but I am sure it was at least 3-4 years ago.
2. rim widths - allowing us to run wider tires at lower pressures absolutely helps reduce the number of flats one will experience.
3. Tires - they aren't crap anymore. They actually work. If in good shape and inflated correctly and selected for the rider and application correctly then yeah...bye bye flats.
4. Some riders will have flats. Always. Change the tires, rims, pressures, routes, application, use, terrain, etc....and some will still always end up with flats. Some say user error. Some blame some other factor. In reality some people just ride over stuff they shouldn't, lard butt their way over obstacles, and are generally not very aware of what they do to their bike. That's life.
5. Some locations of the country make riding road tires in a tubeless setup the preferred way to go. These areas (like areas with goathead thorns) also happen to be areas that have a lot of interesting things called mountains and enjoy a lot of that style of riding as well. That product went tubeless a while ago so carrying it to road is the only thing that makes sense to these riders.
6. Having spent a helluva lot of time riding all sorts of setups I have come to the following conclusions: tubulars are tubulars. Tubes are tubes. Tubeless is tubeless. The vast majority of riders (90%) will not be able to tell the difference if they aren't told before they ride it. The amount of money I charge a customer to set up their tubeless system far outweighs the cost of tubes for nearly the life of the same setup (for riders in my area). Latex tubes give a supple ride. Tires made to be tubeless do not give a supple ride. They are hard and stiff....huhuuhuhuhuhuhuhuh.
I am currently riding a disc cyclocross setup on mostly road conditions with high end gravel tires. Front wheel is latex tube. Rear is tubeless. Rear, since the switch, has felt dead.
BTW - as many already know the pressure you run your personal setup at will far outstrip the differences in any of these systems.
Nothing like taking a hardened racer and telling them to run at 85psi on their high performance tubulars instead of the 150 they have been riding for the last 20 years and then seeing their face after the race after they thank me for changing their life.
11-30-16, 11:34 AM
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I have to ask, do you live where there are a lot of goat heads? The LBS has more hundreds of my $s in tubes, patch kits, and co2s than I want to think of just due to those. And it's even worse on my MTB. I have come back with over a dozen in my tires on a single ride. The tuffy strips there are a savior but every once in a while, one goes through the tuffy strip.
When I lived and rode/raced in El Paso, TX as a junior I rode with strips and thorn resistant tubes. I do not miss those days.
We're something like 10 solid years in retail availability of tubeless components and the tire choices are still crap.
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11-30-16, 11:42 AM
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i cover that in #5. Indeed areas like that are crazy. Tubeless is the only real answer there. The vast majority of this country is not like that though.
When I lived and rode/raced in El Paso, TX as a junior I rode with strips and thorn resistant tubes. I do not miss those days.
We're something like 10 solid years in retail availability of tubeless components and the tire choices are still crap.
When I lived and rode/raced in El Paso, TX as a junior I rode with strips and thorn resistant tubes. I do not miss those days.
We're something like 10 solid years in retail availability of tubeless components and the tire choices are still crap.
11-30-16, 11:51 AM
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@dalava, @Chandne, @Anyone else with an opinion
I have a set of Enve SES 4.5 AR disc wheels coming. Do I want to run them tubeless? I'm going to be almost exclusively on pavement for a few months until the snows melt, then a lot of dirt forest service roads.
If I run them tubeless, the shop will set that up for me. But the shop is ~200 miles away from home.
I have a set of Enve SES 4.5 AR disc wheels coming. Do I want to run them tubeless? I'm going to be almost exclusively on pavement for a few months until the snows melt, then a lot of dirt forest service roads.
If I run them tubeless, the shop will set that up for me. But the shop is ~200 miles away from home.
11-30-16, 11:53 AM
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Also, I need to run tubeless tires whether I use a tube or not. Suggestions for my use?
11-30-16, 12:02 PM
#41
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My opinion?
The biggest argument against tubeless tires is the difficulty in mounting them. If you've got to use tubeless tires regardless, you might as well run them as intended -- tubeless, and with sealant. Should you ever find yourself unlucky enough to get a puncture that the sealant won't seal, you'll then have an opportunity to try them with tubes!
Win/win.
11-30-16, 12:07 PM
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On the subject of tube or tubeless, I would say just install some latex tube and set them up as tubed, and call it a day. Of the last several years of my cycling including commute and weekend warrior rides and gran fondos and races, the benefit of tubeless was very limited; I say it's almost more psychological than actual, especially in the beginning when I started using tubeless. I felt invincible and could ride over crap or potholes on the road. After I got 2 flats on a set of tubeless tires on the same commute followed by another sidewall cut on a weekend ride, I recounted all the flats I remembered, and came to the conclusion that pretty much I got the same amount of flats and cuts on tubeless as tubed.
Now, this is just my personal experience, and take that as one sample. And this is from someone who's total believer of tubeless just a few year ago. After the current batch of Pro Ones are gone, I am going back to regular tubed clinchers for regular rides, and tubulars for races.
11-30-16, 12:17 PM
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Thanks, @dalava and @RNAV!
For the record I'll be using 28 mm tires (Enve confusingly has an SES 4.5 wheel and an SES 4.5 AR one, I have the latter), and they say not to use latex tubes.
I feel like I should try it since the shop will set them up for free, but I'm kind of leery because I know how to deal with a flat with a regular setup, and know it'll work.
For the record I'll be using 28 mm tires (Enve confusingly has an SES 4.5 wheel and an SES 4.5 AR one, I have the latter), and they say not to use latex tubes.
I feel like I should try it since the shop will set them up for free, but I'm kind of leery because I know how to deal with a flat with a regular setup, and know it'll work.
11-30-16, 11:25 PM
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I think the IRC RoadLite is another great choice...they seem tougher than the Schwalbes too. I use the Pro One and the IRC Formula Pro RBCC or something like that. The RoadLite is a tougher version of the RBCC.
Here is my thought. IF you can (after a few days of using sealant) deflate and unseat the tires and take them off easily enough, go tubeless. Then you can easily throw in a tube with a bit of a sealant mess. If you can't easily get the tire off (more of a prob with aggressive bead "barbs" or retaining mechanism that runs parallel to the rim bead. Am Classic is aggressive.
I have about 600 all road miles on my IRCs and they are really nice. I need to put the Pro Ones back on but don't feel like doing that in the winter.
EDIT: My real winter road bike is a Specialized CruX. I run those tubeless with NOX rims and 33 Bonty tubeless (file-tread type) tires which are fast and just enough to handle dirt and gravel (they are not awesome on snowy trails, as I found out) and fast on the road. I'm definitely sticking with tubeless there...300 mixed miles and zero issues. If they flat, I'll throw in a tube.
Here is my thought. IF you can (after a few days of using sealant) deflate and unseat the tires and take them off easily enough, go tubeless. Then you can easily throw in a tube with a bit of a sealant mess. If you can't easily get the tire off (more of a prob with aggressive bead "barbs" or retaining mechanism that runs parallel to the rim bead. Am Classic is aggressive.
I have about 600 all road miles on my IRCs and they are really nice. I need to put the Pro Ones back on but don't feel like doing that in the winter.
EDIT: My real winter road bike is a Specialized CruX. I run those tubeless with NOX rims and 33 Bonty tubeless (file-tread type) tires which are fast and just enough to handle dirt and gravel (they are not awesome on snowy trails, as I found out) and fast on the road. I'm definitely sticking with tubeless there...300 mixed miles and zero issues. If they flat, I'll throw in a tube.
Last edited by Chandne; 11-30-16 at 11:28 PM.
12-01-16, 08:31 AM
#45
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i cover that in #5. Indeed areas like that are crazy. Tubeless is the only real answer there. The vast majority of this country is not like that though.
When I lived and rode/raced in El Paso, TX as a junior I rode with strips and thorn resistant tubes. I do not miss those days.
We're something like 10 solid years in retail availability of tubeless components and the tire choices are still crap.
When I lived and rode/raced in El Paso, TX as a junior I rode with strips and thorn resistant tubes. I do not miss those days.
We're something like 10 solid years in retail availability of tubeless components and the tire choices are still crap.
12-01-16, 08:42 AM
#46
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I didn't realize your shop was going to do it -- in that case, DEFINITELY go tubeless since you don't have to do it! If you get a puncture that sealant won't fix, you'll do the exact same process to deal with it as you would if you already had a tube in there. Only things different are that you'll have to remove the tubeless valve, and you'll have sealant gunk inside the tire so it'll make a mess when you're trying to input the tube.
12-01-16, 09:58 AM
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Thanks RNAV! You talked me into it.
12-01-16, 12:41 PM
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Been thinking about this one quite a bit. Back a few years when talking with Donn Kellog of Clement he mentioned that a lot of people kept pestering him for tubeless versions of his tires. He expressed a ton of concerns at that time. "There are so many variations in rims that there isn't a tight standard and small variances on a high pressure setup just end catastrophically. Also there really isn't a sealant option out there that isn't caustic to the tire itself - shortening the life of the tire. I don't want to be drowning in lawsuits. Some people set them up tubeless but I don't technically offer it."
Fast forward to now and he now has tubeless options on his CX lineup and some MTB. Not road though...yet. In reality it's a lot easier from a technical standpoint to get a wide bodied tire and rim to seal up and hold under moderate to low pressure.
I vaguely remember seeing Boyd testing tubeless with Michelin.
It's not like the big guys don't want to do it but when you take into account history and Schwalbe's track record of exploding tires that they just don't car about it's easy to see why they were some of the first to take on tubeless. The big companies have been working on it so either they still don't like it and don't want to put the product out or we will see it soon. Regardless it's obvious that there are some major reservations.
Fast forward to now and he now has tubeless options on his CX lineup and some MTB. Not road though...yet. In reality it's a lot easier from a technical standpoint to get a wide bodied tire and rim to seal up and hold under moderate to low pressure.
I vaguely remember seeing Boyd testing tubeless with Michelin.
It's not like the big guys don't want to do it but when you take into account history and Schwalbe's track record of exploding tires that they just don't car about it's easy to see why they were some of the first to take on tubeless. The big companies have been working on it so either they still don't like it and don't want to put the product out or we will see it soon. Regardless it's obvious that there are some major reservations.
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03-14-17, 09:16 PM
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I like these Qs and As.
If I already bought wheels with White Industries can I have my $350 refunded?
Unfortunately, we just can not do that. Our costs on those sales were much higher, to the point where we can't go back and retroactively refund for previous sales. This sale is a one day only sale.
If I bought wheels from you before, can I send them in to get the free hubs?
Believe it or not, this is a questions we get a lot, and please do keep in mind that the investment in hubs was quite a bit for us. We are selling a lot of wheels on Black Friday, but purely giving away something we paid a lot of money for just does not make good business sense!! However, we do have a program where if you want to send in your old wheels you can buy and have the White Industries hubs installed.
If I already bought wheels with White Industries can I have my $350 refunded?
Unfortunately, we just can not do that. Our costs on those sales were much higher, to the point where we can't go back and retroactively refund for previous sales. This sale is a one day only sale.
If I bought wheels from you before, can I send them in to get the free hubs?
Believe it or not, this is a questions we get a lot, and please do keep in mind that the investment in hubs was quite a bit for us. We are selling a lot of wheels on Black Friday, but purely giving away something we paid a lot of money for just does not make good business sense!! However, we do have a program where if you want to send in your old wheels you can buy and have the White Industries hubs installed.
I have had sets of DT440's, RS80's and Bontrager RXL's all set up tubeless with never an issue. That is what drew me to Boyd. Regardless of what I read here, they are a pain to mount tires on(schwalbe's pro and non pro one's) but they do latch on to the bead. Getting them off is almost impossible. I suggest you try removing them in your driveway before you get out on the road.
Because of Boyd's service we have kept quiet but these wheels are not without their issues.