Aero vs non aero, Emonda vs Madone, Addict vs Foil, etc (long and want feedback)
08-23-22, 07:15 PM
#1
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Aero vs non aero, Emonda vs Madone, Addict vs Foil, etc (long and want feedback)
Hello all, due to the pandemic I'm still on the hunt for a new bike. I've not been able to test ride a thing locally and have resigned myself to possibly shopping out of state if needed.
Current bike 2017 Roubaix Elite. I've upgraded the wheels to Reynolds AR42s (worth it).
I've been looking for a new bike for a couple years now, but due to the pandemic and my size, I'm typically the largest frame available at 6'6, so a 60, 61 or 62 is usually needed and as a result there just hasn't been anything locally. Things are showing signs of improving so I'm hopeful I can get something before next riding season. I also found out a client of mine at work has connections at Trek and has access to their national inventory as well as builds, so I could have a way of getting something in my size which is great to hear.
I do want an electronic groupset and am leaning towards rival for full wireless, but am not opposed to 105 Di2 or Ultegra. I DO NOT want to get into a groupset debate. I've done that before, I've done a ton of reading and now have some experience through friends with both group sets, they're great.
A little about me - I ride a fair amount, I'll log somewhere around 8,000 miles this year. My FTP fluctuates between 300-330 watts but I'm 6'6 and 185lbs so that's not that impressive. I will be doing some work this winter via trainer road to hopefully get up to 350-360w. My point is I'm not the fast dude in the corral but I'm also not terribly slow. I hang in just fine with A group rides and can do long sustained pulls relatively well.
I've been leaning towards an aero bike because of the additional benefit I think it would provide. But many of the "normal" or "race" frames have aero profiles now and are far better than bikes even 3 years ago.
As a result I have several questions.
Is an aero bike worth it?
Does a modern aero bike have issues in crosswinds or is that not really a thing anymore?
Has comfort really caught up in the aero bike world?
Almost anything will be lighter than my existing bike which is about 21lbs so I'm not super worried about weight. I do have a lot of short punchy climbs on most routes and it's not uncommon to log 60-80 miles with 3500 ft of climb, but these are usually fairly short climbs.
Aero trumps weight in 95% of cases. So really it's about cross winds, comfort on the bike and longevity. I'm fairly open to various brands and but would like a stack height of 590 or higher for comfort reasons. There are many good options in the 600-625 range.
Bikes I'd consider
Scott Foil, Scott Addict
Giant TCR, Giant Propel
Orbea Orca Aero, Orbea Orca
Trek Madone, Trek Emonda
Bianchi (can't remember the frames)
Pinarello Paris, Pinarello Prince
Felt AR
Does anyone know the actual watts differences between any of these between their "standard" and "aero" geo? I suspect there's not really a lot in it? How has cross winds impacted your riding of various aero frames? Where I live it's not uncommon to have winds of 15-20mph, sometimes higher. Cross winds are a real thing here for much of the year. In the entire month of April we had two days with winds below 20mph, yea that was usually windy but 10-15 is very common in April and May.
I think most bikes are basically made in China or Taiwan and there's not a ton of difference in them until you get into something like Allied, which is simply too expensive.
Happy to answer more questions if needed. I'd like to get something bought, or a frame bought by year end to get something build for March of next year.
Current bike 2017 Roubaix Elite. I've upgraded the wheels to Reynolds AR42s (worth it).
I've been looking for a new bike for a couple years now, but due to the pandemic and my size, I'm typically the largest frame available at 6'6, so a 60, 61 or 62 is usually needed and as a result there just hasn't been anything locally. Things are showing signs of improving so I'm hopeful I can get something before next riding season. I also found out a client of mine at work has connections at Trek and has access to their national inventory as well as builds, so I could have a way of getting something in my size which is great to hear.
I do want an electronic groupset and am leaning towards rival for full wireless, but am not opposed to 105 Di2 or Ultegra. I DO NOT want to get into a groupset debate. I've done that before, I've done a ton of reading and now have some experience through friends with both group sets, they're great.
A little about me - I ride a fair amount, I'll log somewhere around 8,000 miles this year. My FTP fluctuates between 300-330 watts but I'm 6'6 and 185lbs so that's not that impressive. I will be doing some work this winter via trainer road to hopefully get up to 350-360w. My point is I'm not the fast dude in the corral but I'm also not terribly slow. I hang in just fine with A group rides and can do long sustained pulls relatively well.
I've been leaning towards an aero bike because of the additional benefit I think it would provide. But many of the "normal" or "race" frames have aero profiles now and are far better than bikes even 3 years ago.
As a result I have several questions.
Is an aero bike worth it?
Does a modern aero bike have issues in crosswinds or is that not really a thing anymore?
Has comfort really caught up in the aero bike world?
Almost anything will be lighter than my existing bike which is about 21lbs so I'm not super worried about weight. I do have a lot of short punchy climbs on most routes and it's not uncommon to log 60-80 miles with 3500 ft of climb, but these are usually fairly short climbs.
Aero trumps weight in 95% of cases. So really it's about cross winds, comfort on the bike and longevity. I'm fairly open to various brands and but would like a stack height of 590 or higher for comfort reasons. There are many good options in the 600-625 range.
Bikes I'd consider
Scott Foil, Scott Addict
Giant TCR, Giant Propel
Orbea Orca Aero, Orbea Orca
Trek Madone, Trek Emonda
Bianchi (can't remember the frames)
Pinarello Paris, Pinarello Prince
Felt AR
Does anyone know the actual watts differences between any of these between their "standard" and "aero" geo? I suspect there's not really a lot in it? How has cross winds impacted your riding of various aero frames? Where I live it's not uncommon to have winds of 15-20mph, sometimes higher. Cross winds are a real thing here for much of the year. In the entire month of April we had two days with winds below 20mph, yea that was usually windy but 10-15 is very common in April and May.
I think most bikes are basically made in China or Taiwan and there's not a ton of difference in them until you get into something like Allied, which is simply too expensive.
Happy to answer more questions if needed. I'd like to get something bought, or a frame bought by year end to get something build for March of next year.
08-23-22, 10:05 PM
#2
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Your ftp range would have you at probably 24mph on flat road. That is pretty good for an hour of riding solo. Just saying don't dismiss that as common.
08-24-22, 08:35 AM
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Just focusing on the Trek bikes - The Madone is faster than the Emonda in every situation except for a race up a big mountain where a few pounds makes a tiny bit of difference. Aero matters, if you care about this type of thing.
If you want the fastest bike, then get the Madone. If you're worried about handling and weight, or prefer a more traditional aesthetic, then the Emonda is a great choice. It's also worth noting that Trek hasn't ignored aerodynamics with the Emonda - it also has some aero shaping on the frame, just not as extreme as the Madone.
I ride with people who own both - I don't think the crosswind handling differences are a big factor and I've never heard anyone describe the Madone as uncomfortable.
If you want the fastest bike, then get the Madone. If you're worried about handling and weight, or prefer a more traditional aesthetic, then the Emonda is a great choice. It's also worth noting that Trek hasn't ignored aerodynamics with the Emonda - it also has some aero shaping on the frame, just not as extreme as the Madone.
I ride with people who own both - I don't think the crosswind handling differences are a big factor and I've never heard anyone describe the Madone as uncomfortable.
08-24-22, 08:35 AM
#5
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You are 6'6 and 185#, but wide? Thats a first.
I am 6'5 and 215#. I must be a parachute then.
I am 6'5 and 215#. I must be a parachute then.
08-24-22, 08:44 AM
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Based on your reading your biggest gain will be the bike's stack/reach and bar width combo given you claim you are eating so much air.
Aero frames may have gains, at high speeds and riding alone, but not on the magnitude of getting a frame that gets you a bike fit that allows you to be more aero on the bike yourself.
So, pay attention to the stack/reach and included handlebar width figures as much as you're looking at aero frames. IMO, ymmv, standard disclaimer stuff.
Aero frames may have gains, at high speeds and riding alone, but not on the magnitude of getting a frame that gets you a bike fit that allows you to be more aero on the bike yourself.
So, pay attention to the stack/reach and included handlebar width figures as much as you're looking at aero frames. IMO, ymmv, standard disclaimer stuff.
08-24-22, 10:01 AM
#7
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08-24-22, 10:03 AM
#8
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Thread Starter
Based on your reading your biggest gain will be the bike's stack/reach and bar width combo given you claim you are eating so much air.
Aero frames may have gains, at high speeds and riding alone, but not on the magnitude of getting a frame that gets you a bike fit that allows you to be more aero on the bike yourself.
So, pay attention to the stack/reach and included handlebar width figures as much as you're looking at aero frames. IMO, ymmv, standard disclaimer stuff.
Aero frames may have gains, at high speeds and riding alone, but not on the magnitude of getting a frame that gets you a bike fit that allows you to be more aero on the bike yourself.
So, pay attention to the stack/reach and included handlebar width figures as much as you're looking at aero frames. IMO, ymmv, standard disclaimer stuff.
08-24-22, 10:28 AM
#9
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... Current bike 2017 Roubaix Elite. I've upgraded the wheels to Reynolds AR42s (worth it).
I've been looking for a new bike for a couple years now, but due to the pandemic and my size, I'm typically the largest frame available at 6'6, so a 60, 61 or 62 is usually needed and as a result there just hasn't been anything locally. Things are showing signs of improving so I'm hopeful I can get something before next riding season. I also found out a client of mine at work has connections at Trek and has access to their national inventory as well as builds, so I could have a way of getting something in my size which is great to hear.
...
A little about me - I ride a fair amount, I'll log somewhere around 8,000 miles this year. My FTP fluctuates between 300-330 watts but I'm 6'6 and 185lbs so that's not that impressive. I will be doing some work this winter via trainer road to hopefully get up to 350-360w. My point is I'm not the fast dude in the corral but I'm also not terribly slow. I hang in just fine with A group rides and can do long sustained pulls relatively well.
I've been leaning towards an aero bike because of the additional benefit I think it would provide. But many of the "normal" or "race" frames have aero profiles now and are far better than bikes even 3 years ago.
...
... Where I live it's not uncommon to have winds of 15-20mph, sometimes higher. Cross winds are a real thing here for much of the year. In the entire month of April we had two days with winds below 20mph, yea that was usually windy but 10-15 is very common in April and May.
I've been looking for a new bike for a couple years now, but due to the pandemic and my size, I'm typically the largest frame available at 6'6, so a 60, 61 or 62 is usually needed and as a result there just hasn't been anything locally. Things are showing signs of improving so I'm hopeful I can get something before next riding season. I also found out a client of mine at work has connections at Trek and has access to their national inventory as well as builds, so I could have a way of getting something in my size which is great to hear.
...
A little about me - I ride a fair amount, I'll log somewhere around 8,000 miles this year. My FTP fluctuates between 300-330 watts but I'm 6'6 and 185lbs so that's not that impressive. I will be doing some work this winter via trainer road to hopefully get up to 350-360w. My point is I'm not the fast dude in the corral but I'm also not terribly slow. I hang in just fine with A group rides and can do long sustained pulls relatively well.
I've been leaning towards an aero bike because of the additional benefit I think it would provide. But many of the "normal" or "race" frames have aero profiles now and are far better than bikes even 3 years ago.
...
... Where I live it's not uncommon to have winds of 15-20mph, sometimes higher. Cross winds are a real thing here for much of the year. In the entire month of April we had two days with winds below 20mph, yea that was usually windy but 10-15 is very common in April and May.
Based on your reading your biggest gain will be the bike's stack/reach and bar width combo given you claim you are eating so much air.
Aero frames may have gains, at high speeds and riding alone, but not on the magnitude of getting a frame that gets you a bike fit that allows you to be more aero on the bike yourself.
So, pay attention to the stack/reach and included handlebar width figures as much as you're looking at aero frames. IMO, ymmv, standard disclaimer stuff.
Aero frames may have gains, at high speeds and riding alone, but not on the magnitude of getting a frame that gets you a bike fit that allows you to be more aero on the bike yourself.
So, pay attention to the stack/reach and included handlebar width figures as much as you're looking at aero frames. IMO, ymmv, standard disclaimer stuff.
The biggest gain you're gonna get is from your own position... and less so from the bike and parts. But, it's ok to get the marginal gains from the bike.
This was posted in another thread - emphasizes the importance of a position as wind resistance becomes more important - obviously from your post, a factor.
UCI Banned Road Bike Position Aerodynamics - it's really illustrative of the most common positions/postures, even outside of the 'banned' positions, on the aero of each... nice summary with numbers.
I haven't used deep cross-section aero wheelsets much (just for TT, which I don;t do much at all), but those whom I ride with say the most impacted they felt with crosswinds, were due to 50+mm deep wheels, hardly any comments on the 'frame'... So maybe some well designed 40 ish wheels might be a good compromise... which might impact on bike choice ?
Nice 'toroidal' design wheels would be a big complement..
Otherwise, I would consider your current Bike, the Roubaix, and think about what it is in that design which might make YOU more Aero, and still comfortable enough to do a whole ride in the best comfy/aero position you can achieve (or want to achieve). Then look at the bikes you have available to you, and see what matches best.
I like this site for comparing and considering bike/frame differences - very informative... especially using the 'Comparison engine'.
GeometryGeeks - pick your roubaix for comparisons with what you're considering.
another chance for 'analysis paralysis'.... LOL!
Ride On
Yuri
08-24-22, 10:32 AM
#10
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OP, Pretty much what 'burnthesheep' has pointed out.
The biggest gain you're gonna get is from your own position... and less so from the bike and parts. But, it's ok to get the marginal gains from the bike.
This was posted in another thread - emphasizes the importance of a position as wind resistance becomes more important - obviously from your post, a factor.
UCI Banned Road Bike Position Aerodynamics - it's really illustrative of the most common positions/postures, even outside of the 'banned' positions, on the aero of each... nice summary with numbers.
I haven't used deep cross-section aero wheelsets much (just for TT, which I don;t do much at all), but those whom I ride with say the most impacted they felt with crosswinds, were due to 50+mm deep wheels, hardly any comments on the 'frame'... So maybe some well designed 40 ish wheels might be a good compromise... which might impact on bike choice ?
Nice 'toroidal' design wheels would be a big complement..
Otherwise, I would consider your current Bike, the Roubaix, and think about what it is in that design which might make YOU more Aero, and still comfortable enough to do a whole ride in the best comfy/aero position you can achieve (or want to achieve). Then look at the bikes you have available to you, and see what matches best.
I like this site for comparing and considering bike/frame differences - very informative... especially using the 'Comparison engine'.
GeometryGeeks - pick your roubaix for comparisons with what you're considering.
another chance for 'analysis paralysis'.... LOL!
Ride On
Yuri
The biggest gain you're gonna get is from your own position... and less so from the bike and parts. But, it's ok to get the marginal gains from the bike.
This was posted in another thread - emphasizes the importance of a position as wind resistance becomes more important - obviously from your post, a factor.
UCI Banned Road Bike Position Aerodynamics - it's really illustrative of the most common positions/postures, even outside of the 'banned' positions, on the aero of each... nice summary with numbers.
I haven't used deep cross-section aero wheelsets much (just for TT, which I don;t do much at all), but those whom I ride with say the most impacted they felt with crosswinds, were due to 50+mm deep wheels, hardly any comments on the 'frame'... So maybe some well designed 40 ish wheels might be a good compromise... which might impact on bike choice ?
Nice 'toroidal' design wheels would be a big complement..
Otherwise, I would consider your current Bike, the Roubaix, and think about what it is in that design which might make YOU more Aero, and still comfortable enough to do a whole ride in the best comfy/aero position you can achieve (or want to achieve). Then look at the bikes you have available to you, and see what matches best.
I like this site for comparing and considering bike/frame differences - very informative... especially using the 'Comparison engine'.
GeometryGeeks - pick your roubaix for comparisons with what you're considering.
another chance for 'analysis paralysis'.... LOL!
Ride On
Yuri
08-24-22, 11:29 AM
#11
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aero everything!! frame, wheels, helmet. Cheat the wind where you can since you're tall guy.
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Rule #10 // It never gets easier, you just go faster.
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08-24-22, 11:36 AM
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08-24-22, 12:01 PM
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roubaix is more upright seating, longer head tube, harder to get down low to beat the wind to draft. The madone and foil will be more agressive fitting but we also have long arms to help w/ that when in the drops. The pinarellos are pretty aero too. Lower end Prince /Gan usually same molds as higher F series bikes w/ non hi mod carbon.
I have an older Gan S that is same mold as the F8, but the whole bike was a lil cheaper than F8 frameset. 10k miles later it's still a rocket, 6'1 and ride 56cm. 565mm top tube plus laid back seatpost. Geo works well for me.
I have an older Gan S that is same mold as the F8, but the whole bike was a lil cheaper than F8 frameset. 10k miles later it's still a rocket, 6'1 and ride 56cm. 565mm top tube plus laid back seatpost. Geo works well for me.
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Rule #10 // It never gets easier, you just go faster.
Rule #10 // It never gets easier, you just go faster.
08-24-22, 12:39 PM
#14
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roubaix is more upright seating, longer head tube, harder to get down low to beat the wind to draft. The madone and foil will be more agressive fitting but we also have long arms to help w/ that when in the drops. The pinarellos are pretty aero too. Lower end Prince /Gan usually same molds as higher F series bikes w/ non hi mod carbon.
I have an older Gan S that is same mold as the F8, but the whole bike was a lil cheaper than F8 frameset. 10k miles later it's still a rocket, 6'1 and ride 56cm. 565mm top tube plus laid back seatpost. Geo works well for me.
I have an older Gan S that is same mold as the F8, but the whole bike was a lil cheaper than F8 frameset. 10k miles later it's still a rocket, 6'1 and ride 56cm. 565mm top tube plus laid back seatpost. Geo works well for me.
08-24-22, 12:56 PM
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I'm confused about the conversation here. The Emonda and Madone have identical stack and reach numbers. In fact, they look like they have identical geometry across the board. I don't know about handlebar widths, but that is pretty easy to change.
I totally agree that getting a proper fitting can make a big difference in aero gains, I'm just not sure why this would factor into the decision on which one to buy. Wouldn't they both fit the same?
I totally agree that getting a proper fitting can make a big difference in aero gains, I'm just not sure why this would factor into the decision on which one to buy. Wouldn't they both fit the same?
08-24-22, 01:21 PM
#16
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I'm confused about the conversation here. The Emonda and Madone have identical stack and reach numbers. In fact, they look like they have identical geometry across the board. I don't know about handlebar widths, but that is pretty easy to change.
I totally agree that getting a proper fitting can make a big difference in aero gains, I'm just not sure why this would factor into the decision on which one to buy. Wouldn't they both fit the same?
I totally agree that getting a proper fitting can make a big difference in aero gains, I'm just not sure why this would factor into the decision on which one to buy. Wouldn't they both fit the same?
Last edited by OUGrad05; 08-24-22 at 01:24 PM.
08-24-22, 01:24 PM
#17
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Or I could be wrong! Happens all the time.
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08-24-22, 03:29 PM
#18
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All your choices would be great, so if you are getting something no need to complicate things. However, you could take a look at Canyon Aeroad. They have extra big sizes and if you can't test ride anyway why not take the cost saving from a brand set up to direct to customer?
08-24-22, 05:13 PM
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If you have broad shoulders, you may not gain that much from narrower bars. I believe they're more useful for folks with narrow shoulders, to decrease frontal area by not having their arms farther out than their shoulders. But if you're 6'6 with shoulders that are broad even for that height, 44cm bars may well have the same effect for you.
Or I could be wrong! Happens all the time.
Or I could be wrong! Happens all the time.
08-24-22, 08:01 PM
#20
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I kinda figure somebody knows the answer to this, but not being 6'6" myself, I can't be arsed to check.
EDIT: In my own work, my superpower is coming up with hypotheses which completely explain all the observed phenomena, and which are easily tested, and also completely disproved by those tests. They say, "Don't fall in love with your own hypotheses," but I should probably avoid even liking mine.
EDIT: In my own work, my superpower is coming up with hypotheses which completely explain all the observed phenomena, and which are easily tested, and also completely disproved by those tests. They say, "Don't fall in love with your own hypotheses," but I should probably avoid even liking mine.
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"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
08-27-22, 07:02 AM
#21
TFO
For me, crosswind sensitivity has been mainly due to wheel depth. One reason I went with the Emonda as it has 37 deep wheels down from 52 on previous bike a Felt AR. Much improved.
Aero between current Emonda and previous generation AR seems similar. Both comfortable riding
Aero between current Emonda and previous generation AR seems similar. Both comfortable riding
Last edited by dbf73; 08-27-22 at 12:39 PM.
08-27-22, 01:26 PM
#22
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For me, crosswind sensitivity has been mainly due to wheel depth. One reason I went with the Emonda as it has 37 deep wheels down from 52 on previous bike a Felt AR. Much improved.
Aero between current Emonda and previous generation AR seems similar. Both comfortable riding
Aero between current Emonda and previous generation AR seems similar. Both comfortable riding
