How Much New is Too Much for You?
#76
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I was primarily a mountain biker and because of that, almost nothing is off limits. Change in wheel size, index shifting, 6 to 12 cog cassettes, triple to single front chain ring, 5 degree shift in geometry, tubeless tires, electronic shifting, carbon frame, carbon stems, handlebars and carbon rims, different shaped tubes, dropper posts, disregarding weight to improve the ride, better racks for transporting bikes, thru axles for increased rigidity? I am game for all of it.
The improvements in MTBs over the years has been dramatic. The MTBs from even the last 2-3 years are dramatically better than those from 4-5 years ago. Are road bikes? Part of me thinks yes. The new gearing, the move to aero all has made it easier to ride further and faster. No limits to progression.
I am not against pedal assisted bikes but there has to be a limit to them off road. On road, I think they are the key to increasing overall bicycle safety.
The improvements in MTBs over the years has been dramatic. The MTBs from even the last 2-3 years are dramatically better than those from 4-5 years ago. Are road bikes? Part of me thinks yes. The new gearing, the move to aero all has made it easier to ride further and faster. No limits to progression.
I am not against pedal assisted bikes but there has to be a limit to them off road. On road, I think they are the key to increasing overall bicycle safety.
Last edited by vespasianus; 04-07-22 at 05:35 AM.
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#77
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i’m pretty new to bikes as a “hobby” or pastime - as opposed to using them occasionally to get around - and don’t really have any nostalgia for a lot of the things that cyclists are often waxing poetic about. i have only three bikes, but all of the following “tech” is represented (not all on every bike lol)
carbon frame - yes, yes, yes
carbon wheels - yes, ditto
tubeless - yes, very strong preference, lower pressure for a smoother ride and less daily puncture risk
electronic shifting - yes
disc brakes - yes, must have
clipless pedals - yes, almost always
automatic shifting - sometimes
mostly enclosed drivetrain - don’t like
belt drive - sometimes
IGH - sometimes. would like to try a pinion for a commuter
bluetooth - yes, yes, yes
power meters - yes, yes
steerer tube shock - sometimes
hub motor - sometimes
mid-drive motor - sometimes
electronic lock - sometimes
GPS anti-theft - yes, yes, yes
heart rate monitor - absolute must
strava - yes, but not the social aspects
all that said, 95% of the time, i get on my 14lb road bike (obv not the one with the IGH, motor, etc), clip a phone on the bar, and ride. i enjoy tinkering the tech, upgrading the bikes, reading the forums when i’m OFF the bike, but when i’m riding, i’m just riding.
carbon frame - yes, yes, yes
carbon wheels - yes, ditto
tubeless - yes, very strong preference, lower pressure for a smoother ride and less daily puncture risk
electronic shifting - yes
disc brakes - yes, must have
clipless pedals - yes, almost always
automatic shifting - sometimes
mostly enclosed drivetrain - don’t like
belt drive - sometimes
IGH - sometimes. would like to try a pinion for a commuter
bluetooth - yes, yes, yes
power meters - yes, yes
steerer tube shock - sometimes
hub motor - sometimes
mid-drive motor - sometimes
electronic lock - sometimes
GPS anti-theft - yes, yes, yes
heart rate monitor - absolute must
strava - yes, but not the social aspects
all that said, 95% of the time, i get on my 14lb road bike (obv not the one with the IGH, motor, etc), clip a phone on the bar, and ride. i enjoy tinkering the tech, upgrading the bikes, reading the forums when i’m OFF the bike, but when i’m riding, i’m just riding.
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#78
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I'm interested in all the new. My decisions on it are largely based on the $$$s involved. My last new bike purchase was 3-1/2 or so years ago. The difference in price of the aluminum and carbon bikes, mechanical and electronic shifting, and a few other things influenced my decision more than bias towards the technologies. The bike I did buy suited all the needs I thought I required, plus it had hydraulic disc brakes which I didn't know I needed but found I would not do without on a modern bike unless something better comes along. I have tubeless ready rims on that bike, but have not gone tubeless. Not because I'm not for them, I'm just satisfied with what I'm running now.
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My riding works with relatively simple bikes, so I haven’t adopted many new technologies. I really like modern tires, LED rechargeable lights, and clip on fenders.
I’m not likely to use anything that raises reliability concerns compared to what I’m using, uses proprietary standards or is designed for a short product life cycle.
Otto
I’m not likely to use anything that raises reliability concerns compared to what I’m using, uses proprietary standards or is designed for a short product life cycle.
Otto
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The advent of gravel bikes and the like had nothing to do with Grant P.'s pushing his niche non-racing bikes and everything to do with U.S. bike racers becoming fascinated by cyclocross racing, a sport that originated in Europe in 1902. U.S. cyclocross, having become a dominant segment of the bike racing scene in this country, then begat gravel racing and purpose-built gravel bikes.
And endurance bikes are road racing bikes that still look the part but are optimized for aging riders who have put on a little too much weight. Again, nothing to do with GP. (And, by the way, not sure what the decline of XC mountain bike racing has to do with this topic.)
Grant P.'s main accomplishment, from the point of view of a guy who got into racing bikes in the early '60s and has enjoyed tracking all the subsequent trends in the industry as they came and went, was that he persuaded a small coterie of acolytes that they're actually secretly cooler than the bike racers that they had hitherto felt intimidated by. It's geeks versus jocks.
And that was a stroke of genius on his part. Guys who remembered the feeling of being invisible to the cool kids in high school only to find themselves in the same position all over again rallied to Grant's flag. Some of the worst trolls here outside of Politics and Religion are the guys (and they're all guys, it would seem) who, lacking the considerable rhetorical skill of Grant himself, deliver themselves of unnuanced, bilious diatribes against carbon, aluminum, lycra, electric shifting, derailleurs, hybrids, any bike that isn't a recumbent, any bike that isn't a Dutch bike, etc., etc., etc.
That antagonism is, I believe, Petersen's primary legacy, and that's what I dislike about Rivendell and its effect on the cycling community in this country. Bike riding in the U.S. is tough enough, when all of us feel targets on our backs when we're out there contending with drivers who believe we have no right to take up room on "their" roads. Dividing us from within serves no purpose.
And endurance bikes are road racing bikes that still look the part but are optimized for aging riders who have put on a little too much weight. Again, nothing to do with GP. (And, by the way, not sure what the decline of XC mountain bike racing has to do with this topic.)
Grant P.'s main accomplishment, from the point of view of a guy who got into racing bikes in the early '60s and has enjoyed tracking all the subsequent trends in the industry as they came and went, was that he persuaded a small coterie of acolytes that they're actually secretly cooler than the bike racers that they had hitherto felt intimidated by. It's geeks versus jocks.
And that was a stroke of genius on his part. Guys who remembered the feeling of being invisible to the cool kids in high school only to find themselves in the same position all over again rallied to Grant's flag. Some of the worst trolls here outside of Politics and Religion are the guys (and they're all guys, it would seem) who, lacking the considerable rhetorical skill of Grant himself, deliver themselves of unnuanced, bilious diatribes against carbon, aluminum, lycra, electric shifting, derailleurs, hybrids, any bike that isn't a recumbent, any bike that isn't a Dutch bike, etc., etc., etc.
That antagonism is, I believe, Petersen's primary legacy, and that's what I dislike about Rivendell and its effect on the cycling community in this country. Bike riding in the U.S. is tough enough, when all of us feel targets on our backs when we're out there contending with drivers who believe we have no right to take up room on "their" roads. Dividing us from within serves no purpose.
OP specifically asked that this not degenerate into an argument which you have taken to mean calling people fat, uncool, geeks, trolls, etc. because they express distaste for things you like.
This has been a pleasant thread, let's just not go there, ok?
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New is a strange thing, Take gearing for instance. For years 10 speeds were the way to go. Then the number of gears we were told we needed went up and up.
Now in gearing NEW is a 1 x 12. How strange that gearing is now 1/3 of what it was a couple of years ago.
Now in gearing NEW is a 1 x 12. How strange that gearing is now 1/3 of what it was a couple of years ago.
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A "New" thing like a BB, doesn't always sit well with me.
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most “new” things come about because someone tries to improve something - e.g. adding range, or removing moving parts. whether the compromises that come with that make it better or not is subjective and personal, but it’s still a solution to a problem.
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Also, new things broaden the range of choices for people who don't like the compromises of the currently dominant set ups. Having a front derailleur could be seen as a compromise to cope with the relatively poor range of older rear derailleurs.
What you're willing to pay for different features is also completely subjective.
Sometimes innovation actually makes things cheaper.
Last edited by livedarklions; 04-07-22 at 10:06 AM.
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I see it that way for the most part. Then there are those that don't want to be bothered with needing to make a few sweeps to the gear ratio they see fit from having only one shifter (1x12). Those same folks tend to never use the front der if they did have one.
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#87
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Fully sealed drive train was produced by Sunbeam 100 years ago. Chain ran in an oil bath. Sunbeams were the most expensive English bike made. Many originals still exist, a few remain in use, the oil bath chaincases are still tight. The famous statue of Sir Richard Elgar with his bicycle - that is his Sunbeam.
Only problem with the Sunbeam was removing rear wheel to change a flat. Of course any who owned one had a mechanic. It was a lot of work. Solution for that would be an arrangement like the Cinelli Bivalent hub. When you opened the quick release on a Cinelli hub and dropped the back wheel the entire drivetrain remained in place. It would not be that difficult to go from there to an enclosed drivetrain on a fairly normal useable bike.
Another feature that would make enclosed drive more useful would be chain and sprockets that did not wear out. Of course simply being enclosed would limit wear considerably. Next step would be reduced chain pitch. Coventry Chain produced 8mm pitch ‘Chainette’ from 1909 to 1939. Thousands of races were won on that chain, most notably by Freddie Grubb and Sir Hubert Oppermann. When Shimano tried this some sixty years later they touted stiffness and completely missed the idea. Coventry used chainwheels and sprockets with a far higher tooth count, which meant smoother operation and far less load and less wear on each tooth. There are a variety of chain designs more efficient and less prone to wear than current bicycle chains but all of them require minimum sprocket tooth count higher than now used by bicycles. With shorter pitch chain the required tooth count would be simple. For most users the result would be chain and sprockets that lasted the life of the bicycle.
There are lots of ways to improve bicycles that are entirely overlooked. Innovations come from the sales department, not from engineers. Customers are easily hypnotized by advertising and accept rubbish that should have been discarded long ago, celebrate novelties of no particular benefit.
Only problem with the Sunbeam was removing rear wheel to change a flat. Of course any who owned one had a mechanic. It was a lot of work. Solution for that would be an arrangement like the Cinelli Bivalent hub. When you opened the quick release on a Cinelli hub and dropped the back wheel the entire drivetrain remained in place. It would not be that difficult to go from there to an enclosed drivetrain on a fairly normal useable bike.
Another feature that would make enclosed drive more useful would be chain and sprockets that did not wear out. Of course simply being enclosed would limit wear considerably. Next step would be reduced chain pitch. Coventry Chain produced 8mm pitch ‘Chainette’ from 1909 to 1939. Thousands of races were won on that chain, most notably by Freddie Grubb and Sir Hubert Oppermann. When Shimano tried this some sixty years later they touted stiffness and completely missed the idea. Coventry used chainwheels and sprockets with a far higher tooth count, which meant smoother operation and far less load and less wear on each tooth. There are a variety of chain designs more efficient and less prone to wear than current bicycle chains but all of them require minimum sprocket tooth count higher than now used by bicycles. With shorter pitch chain the required tooth count would be simple. For most users the result would be chain and sprockets that lasted the life of the bicycle.
There are lots of ways to improve bicycles that are entirely overlooked. Innovations come from the sales department, not from engineers. Customers are easily hypnotized by advertising and accept rubbish that should have been discarded long ago, celebrate novelties of no particular benefit.
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New Options are always nice to see the Forward Thinking of the industry. However, to me, it makes me appreciate some of the OLD features. The New Steering Head with integrated shock absorbers, and fancy electronic readouts will not allow risers. They locks one into that geometry. The Di2 locks one into a certain shifting system. I LIKE the old models where I can change steering tube risers and stem lengths. I LIKE the old cable routing where i can easily change from STI to Thumb shifters.
I LOVE the new frame styles with the smaller rear triangle of seat stays (like BMC Alpenchallenge and newer Giant bicycles). I really like the experimentation of frame carbon and aerofoil blade shapes, and different wide-to-thin top tubes. I like the hydraulic brakes. I STILL ride with an OX double-butted Trek 1992 steel frame. I like the way I can change cassettes and rings to fit my needs with older clearances. I am not a 1-Front Ring-only user. I like the old fashioned 48-38-28 to get me flexibility. Servicing is NOT an issue. I like rim brakes just fine on the 930-frame. Some of the 2019-2022 carbon frames for TT bikes are awesome. I wish I can find one frame set my size, and just build the rest to my preferences with the cassette, and shifters which suit my needs. And I can!! Progress is a lovely thing, to where someone has an idea and we can just pick and piece-together what we like.
I am glad I am not stuck with Just Old. I really dislike the old frames where the seat stays triangle were HUGE. Not necessary for rigidity at all. The joy of bicycling, is the tinkering, in addition to the riding and gliding.
I LOVE the new frame styles with the smaller rear triangle of seat stays (like BMC Alpenchallenge and newer Giant bicycles). I really like the experimentation of frame carbon and aerofoil blade shapes, and different wide-to-thin top tubes. I like the hydraulic brakes. I STILL ride with an OX double-butted Trek 1992 steel frame. I like the way I can change cassettes and rings to fit my needs with older clearances. I am not a 1-Front Ring-only user. I like the old fashioned 48-38-28 to get me flexibility. Servicing is NOT an issue. I like rim brakes just fine on the 930-frame. Some of the 2019-2022 carbon frames for TT bikes are awesome. I wish I can find one frame set my size, and just build the rest to my preferences with the cassette, and shifters which suit my needs. And I can!! Progress is a lovely thing, to where someone has an idea and we can just pick and piece-together what we like.
I am glad I am not stuck with Just Old. I really dislike the old frames where the seat stays triangle were HUGE. Not necessary for rigidity at all. The joy of bicycling, is the tinkering, in addition to the riding and gliding.
Last edited by LoneStarVM; 04-07-22 at 02:15 PM.
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I had a belt-drive internal hub (Shimano) as my commuter for about 4 years. Recently I sold that and bought a CX bike to double as my commuter. The belt drive bike was uninspiring to ride, and perhaps a tad small for me. I've been surprised to find I miss the commuter. Belt and internal drive makes for a robust commuter IMO. The CX bike is a more spirited ride, but that's more about geometry and weight.
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Supposedly the problem with using rim brakes on a touring bike is that you can wear out the rim pretty fast, but people have been touring all over the world for over 100 years on rim brakes and they didn't have a lot of issues with rim failures, so not sure if there is a huge advantage there, but if you run into mud disk brakes are more advantageous.
Last edited by rekmeyata; 04-08-22 at 08:42 PM.
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Back to the OPs question, tubeless tires, hydraulic brakes, and anything that requires a battery, that isn’t a light, or my phone.
Tim
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after 58 + yrs of being dedicated to the act and lifestyle of cycling (not the only thing...) and still owning a bunch of old crappage which I hold purely for the memories involved - I see nothing but a great, expanding cycling universe. Most everything is 'better'. The reach of cycling is broader and better.
Yes, 'racing' had a dominant influence for many years, but thankfully that has backed off greatly. Not just in 'new' ways to ride, but also in allowing innovative thought,.concept, design in all areas.
so, even though I have almost 50 yrs of bike tech currently in my stable - I love my new stuff ! But have no problems totally enjoying the old stuff, in every aspect. They all get me down the road, trail in fine fashion. Actually, I have my Opa's bike, a 1939 Hercules 'Opa Fiets/Rad' - it gets me down the road in fine fashion. They're all miracles of concept and design. Hopefully to be a strong part of mankind's legacy and future, for many years to come.
When I say I like it all; it's not all in my line of needs or wants.
My universe, at this time, is still roadie, with greatly/hugely increasing offroad (much more than expected). But not BMX, trials, alleycating or related, uni or 'bent', and not e-biking of any kind (at this time).
so inconsideration, the only thing I find as 'just not for me' - Electric/tronic shifting...
Electric/battery powered - great for lights, phones, computers. But aside from that batteries are for providing 'portability'. My bike is already 'portable' and the shifters NEVER run out of juice.
The shifters never seem to fail, 9 speed was great and really reliable for every shift, 10, 11 are not just reliable, but super fast, and shifting under load is never a problem. Never seem to drop my chain. Shifters never do more or less than I ask of them. I change my cables once a year. Clean the shifters once a year. Never worry if my battery is charged.
Riders who suddenly lose power and can no longer 'shift' seems to happen way more than I would tolerate.
so, NO to battery powered shifting - totally unnecessary and even considered a backward step, for me.
given proper selection, the 'New' stuff is way better than the 'Old'.
Ride On
Yuri
Yes, 'racing' had a dominant influence for many years, but thankfully that has backed off greatly. Not just in 'new' ways to ride, but also in allowing innovative thought,.concept, design in all areas.
so, even though I have almost 50 yrs of bike tech currently in my stable - I love my new stuff ! But have no problems totally enjoying the old stuff, in every aspect. They all get me down the road, trail in fine fashion. Actually, I have my Opa's bike, a 1939 Hercules 'Opa Fiets/Rad' - it gets me down the road in fine fashion. They're all miracles of concept and design. Hopefully to be a strong part of mankind's legacy and future, for many years to come.
When I say I like it all; it's not all in my line of needs or wants.
My universe, at this time, is still roadie, with greatly/hugely increasing offroad (much more than expected). But not BMX, trials, alleycating or related, uni or 'bent', and not e-biking of any kind (at this time).
so inconsideration, the only thing I find as 'just not for me' - Electric/tronic shifting...
Electric/battery powered - great for lights, phones, computers. But aside from that batteries are for providing 'portability'. My bike is already 'portable' and the shifters NEVER run out of juice.
The shifters never seem to fail, 9 speed was great and really reliable for every shift, 10, 11 are not just reliable, but super fast, and shifting under load is never a problem. Never seem to drop my chain. Shifters never do more or less than I ask of them. I change my cables once a year. Clean the shifters once a year. Never worry if my battery is charged.
Riders who suddenly lose power and can no longer 'shift' seems to happen way more than I would tolerate.
so, NO to battery powered shifting - totally unnecessary and even considered a backward step, for me.
given proper selection, the 'New' stuff is way better than the 'Old'.
Ride On
Yuri
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Back in 2018 or 19 I actually tested my Lynskey road bike with rim brakes against a guy who bought a brand new bike with hydro disk brakes to see who would stop the fastest. What we determined was that the smaller rotor could not dissipate the heat as fast as the much larger rim could and thus he suffered brake fade.
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shifters NEVER run out of juice. The shifters never seem to fail, 9 speed was great and really reliable for every shift, 10, 11 are not just reliable, but super fast, and shifting under load is never a problem. Never seem to drop my chain. Shifters never do more or less than I ask of them.
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Back in 2018 or 19 I actually tested my Lynskey road bike with rim brakes against a guy who bought a brand new bike with hydro disk brakes to see who would stop the fastest. I had 23mm tire on the front and 25 on the rear Vittoria Rubino tires, he had Conti 4000s 25 mm tires all round; I had Shimano 105 rim brakes, my pads were Kool Stop Salmon, and he had DA Hydro disks with factory pads; the total weight of our bikes and body weights were within 5 pounds of each other; we inflated our tires according a tire calculator for a our size of tires and weight; the only rule we had was that we had to stay on our seat and not slide our butts off the back of the saddle to put more weight on the rear this way there was no ability of one person being able to slide further off the rear than the other person could. The test was going to be 3 sets of 3 runs, 1st run was at 15 mph, the 2nd at 20, and the third at 25. The results were interesting, on the first 2 sets we stopped within a foot of each other, sometimes I stopped a tad faster and sometimes he did, that was probably due to reaction time variance; the last set got interesting, the first stop I stopped about a foot and half faster, not a big deal but the second stop I stopped about 3 feet faster, and the last stop I was nearly 7 feet shorter. What happened we asked ourselves? so he touched his front disk rotor and singed his finger and left a whitish burn mark, but didn't singe his finger when he touched my rim though it was hot. What we determined was that the smaller rotor could not dissipate the heat as fast as the much larger rim could and thus he suffered brake fade. The reality is that all a rim represents is a disk, thus rim brakes are actually disk brakes, but the size of rim allows for more surface cooling and thus less chances for brake fade.
Supposedly the problem with using rim brakes on a touring bike is that you can wear out the rim pretty fast, but people have been touring all over the world for over 100 years on rim brakes and they didn't have a lot of issues with rim failures, so not sure if there is a huge advantage there, but if you run into mud disk brakes are more advantageous.
Supposedly the problem with using rim brakes on a touring bike is that you can wear out the rim pretty fast, but people have been touring all over the world for over 100 years on rim brakes and they didn't have a lot of issues with rim failures, so not sure if there is a huge advantage there, but if you run into mud disk brakes are more advantageous.
The rotors are *skimpy* looking. large oval holes in the cross reach arms from the bolting to pad surface, & measured .5mm thicker than the OEM rotor.
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#97
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i cannot fathom trying to stop
as hard as a can without moving my weight back.
#98
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I still debate the need for indexed shifting over friction in certain situations. I had to get a new set of tires on one of my vehicles yesterday. Instead of relying on someone for a ride, I take a bike when I drop the vehicle off and ride the bike back to my office. Do the reverse when picking it up. Between my office and the service place are 2 hills big enough to require going from one end of the cassette range to the other then back again. On the drop-off trip I was riding a bike with brifters. All of the tap, tap tapping required on that 2 mile trip sucked. So, on the pick up trip I grabbed a different bike. Same model, a year older with friction barcons. One shift or one with each lever to get to any gear on the cassette. That's hard to beat in certain situations. The friction/barcons were the better setup for those rides.
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One of the bike has clips and straps. The other has pedals with flats on one side and SPDs on the other. The flat side of the 2 sided pedals was the best choice for those rides. I think the rubber band on the ride pants leg was the most important high tech gear needed.
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#100
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I still debate the need for indexed shifting over friction in certain situations. I had to get a new set of tires on one of my vehicles yesterday. Instead of relying on someone for a ride, I take a bike when I drop the vehicle off and ride the bike back to my office. Do the reverse when picking it up. Between my office and the service place are 2 hills big enough to require going from one end of the cassette range to the other then back again. On the drop-off trip I was riding a bike with brifters. All of the tap, tap tapping required on that 2 mile trip sucked. So, on the pick up trip I grabbed a different bike. Same model, a year older with friction barcons. One shift or one with each lever to get to any gear on the cassette. That's hard to beat in certain situations. The friction/barcons were the better setup for those rides.
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