Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Is half wheeling dangerous?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Is half wheeling dangerous?

Old 09-03-21, 10:49 AM
  #101  
Eric F 
Habitual User
 
Eric F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 7,792

Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4831 Post(s)
Liked 7,824 Times in 3,706 Posts
Originally Posted by Psimet2001
"If i can just slow them down a little bit when they take off from the stop by basically blocking them while I get up to speed I should be golden."

I resemble that remark.
Nailed it.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
Eric F is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 11:05 AM
  #102  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,611

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 997 Posts
Originally Posted by Eric F
Nailed it.
LOL. Actually I was primarily also thinking about complete strangers who do this when out just doing a solo ride, or who aren't even a part of the group I'm riding with.
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 09-03-21, 11:12 AM
  #103  
Eric F 
Habitual User
 
Eric F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 7,792

Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4831 Post(s)
Liked 7,824 Times in 3,706 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
LOL. Actually I was primarily also thinking about complete strangers who do this when out just doing a solo ride, or who aren't even a part of the group I'm riding with.
If I come up to a group at a red light that I saw before was riding at a slower pace than me, I will do exactly what you said. I get them out of my way quicker, and I get out of theirs. It also gives me a chance to exchange pleasant greetings with my fellow cyclists. If I know they are faster than my pace, I stay back.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
Eric F is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 11:18 AM
  #104  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,611

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 997 Posts
Originally Posted by Eric F
If I come up to a group at a red light that I saw before was riding at a slower pace than me, I will do exactly what you said. I get them out of my way quicker, and I get out of theirs. It also gives me a chance to exchange pleasant greetings with my fellow cyclists. If I know they are faster than my pace, I stay back.
And if you have no idea how fast they are? Seems often the case that I'm usually forced to make my way around these guys within the first 1/4 mile after leaving the light.
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 09-03-21, 11:24 AM
  #105  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,101
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8187 Post(s)
Liked 8,844 Times in 4,392 Posts
Originally Posted by Psimet2001
Also - half-wheelers are the same as:

"Man I haven't been riding much - can we just go slow today?" said before causing the group to set new records on every segment of the ride.

See also: "I don't feel great...", "I rode hard yesterday so I need to go easy today...", "My ____ has been acting up....", "It's a recovery week...", "I have an event coming up so I have to go easy..."
big john is online now  
Likes For big john:
Old 09-03-21, 11:28 AM
  #106  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,453

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7628 Post(s)
Liked 3,453 Times in 1,823 Posts
[/QUOTE] The half-wheeler is Not increasing the speed. He is just positioning himself 15 inches further ahead. It is the person pulling who increases speed, to close the gap. Then the rest of the line speeds up to close the gaps. The half-wheeler Then and Only Then increases speed---to match the puller. This causes everyone in the outside line to increase speed to close the gaps.
Originally Posted by WhyFi
How would you propose that they got 15" ahead without increasing their speed relative to the person beside them?
He is not "increasing" speed. he briefly, for a couple strokes pushed harder .... and then maintained speed.

You know this. Either you are just confused because words are not reality and you cannot translate from page to life .... or you are just looking for a fight.

Half-wheeler.
Maelochs is offline  
Likes For Maelochs:
Old 09-03-21, 11:43 AM
  #107  
LarrySellerz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,964
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2644 Post(s)
Liked 474 Times in 344 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
So this is not half-wheeling, right?


On a similar note. How bout the riders who are behind you coming up all the way to the front when you have to stop at a red light?
ive seen the former Olympian in my group do this. It's not a problem
LarrySellerz is offline  
Old 09-03-21, 11:58 AM
  #108  
Eric F 
Habitual User
 
Eric F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 7,792

Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4831 Post(s)
Liked 7,824 Times in 3,706 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
And if you have no idea how fast they are? Seems often the case that I'm usually forced to make my way around these guys within the first 1/4 mile after leaving the light.
Lots of variables are involved with the decision to go to the front or not. Sometimes you can get a good idea of the speed of the group from the appearance of the bikes and riders. I'm not going to force my way through if it's a tight fit next to cars who are also stopped. I don't have an issue being patient, and passing later, if that's a better choice.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
Eric F is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 12:03 PM
  #109  
Eric F 
Habitual User
 
Eric F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 7,792

Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4831 Post(s)
Liked 7,824 Times in 3,706 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs
He is not "increasing" speed. he briefly, for a couple strokes pushed harder .... and then maintained speed..
In the world I ride in, pushing harder generally causes an increase in speed.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
Eric F is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 12:20 PM
  #110  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,656

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,596 Times in 5,943 Posts
Originally Posted by Psimet2001
"If i can just slow them down a little bit when they take off from the stop by basically blocking them while I get up to speed I should be golden."

I resemble that remark.
Stand up out of the saddle when the light turns green, and REALLY work the bike side to side....
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 12:26 PM
  #111  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,656

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,596 Times in 5,943 Posts
Originally Posted by Eric F
If I come up to a group at a red light that I saw before was riding at a slower pace than me, I will do exactly what you said. I get them out of my way quicker, and I get out of theirs. It also gives me a chance to exchange pleasant greetings with my fellow cyclists. If I know they are faster than my pace, I stay back.
These Pandemic days, I notice folks at lights tend to string out, leaving a bike length or so between each individual or group. I figure it would be rude to crowd them, so I'm stuck having to pass them when the light changes. I've found the Garmin Varia to be a godsend (garminsend?) because I don't have to keep watching traffic behind me to know when I can pass them.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 09-03-21, 12:50 PM
  #112  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,505

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 353 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20791 Post(s)
Liked 9,436 Times in 4,663 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs
The half-wheeler is Not increasing the speed. He is just positioning himself 15 inches further ahead. It is the person pulling who increases speed, to close the gap. Then the rest of the line speeds up to close the gaps. The half-wheeler Then and Only Then increases speed---to match the puller. This causes everyone in the outside line to increase speed to close the gaps.

Originally Posted by Maelochs
He is not "increasing" speed. he briefly, for a couple strokes pushed harder .... and then maintained speed.


You know this. Either you are just confused because words are not reality and you cannot translate from page to life .... or you are just looking for a fight.


Half-wheeler.

Your logic is painful, yet you accuse me of not having sufficient ability with language. It's pretty clear that you've either a) never experienced a group ride under the subtle influence of a half-wheeler or b) if you have, it was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.


In your world, the half-wheeler only momentarily increases speed, and the rest are responsible for a permanent increase in speed, to close gaps that the half-wheeler opened. At that point, the half-wheeler is then forced to match that increase, though no fault of their own, so that they don't get dropped. Got it - the half-wheeler is completely innocent.


So, a question: if the half-wheeler's increase is only momentary, why isn't the rest of the group capable of a similar, momentary increase to get everything squared away? Oh, that's right - because when the half-wheeler momentarily increases their speed teleports again, positioning themselves a half-wheel ahead, the rest all have to up the tempo again, just a teeny bit, to close the half-wheeler's gaps and, eventually, the innocent half-wheeler is going to get swept up in their shenanigans, amiright?
WhyFi is offline  
Old 09-03-21, 12:58 PM
  #113  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,656

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,596 Times in 5,943 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi
Your logic is painful, yet you accuse me of not having sufficient ability with language. It's pretty clear that you've either a) never experienced a group ride under the subtle influence of a half-wheeler or b) if you have, it was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.


In your world, the half-wheeler only momentarily increases speed, and the rest are responsible for a permanent increase in speed, to close gaps that the half-wheeler opened. At that point, the half-wheeler is then forced to match that increase, though no fault of their own, so that they don't get dropped. Got it - the half-wheeler is completely innocent.


So, a question: if the half-wheeler's increase is only momentary, why isn't the rest of the group capable of a similar, momentary increase to get everything squared away? Oh, that's right - because when the half-wheeler momentarily increases their speed teleports again, positioning themselves a half-wheel ahead, the rest all have to up the tempo again, just a teeny bit, to close the half-wheeler's gaps and, eventually, the innocent half-wheeler is going to get swept up in their shenanigans, amiright?
Exactly. The problem isn't that the halfwheeler is a half wheel ahead ONCE. It's that you surge to bring yourself even with him but he keeps on riding half a wheel ahead so you keep surging to match.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 01:13 PM
  #114  
Eric F 
Habitual User
 
Eric F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 7,792

Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4831 Post(s)
Liked 7,824 Times in 3,706 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
Exactly. The problem isn't that the halfwheeler is a half wheel ahead ONCE. It's that you surge to bring yourself even with him but he keeps on riding half a wheel ahead so you keep surging to match.
"Surge" might be too strong a word to describe it, in some instances. Sometimes the half-wheeler just creeps ahead over some distance.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
Eric F is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 01:22 PM
  #115  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi
.... the half-wheeler only momentarily increases speed, and the rest are responsible for a permanent increase in speed, to close gaps that the half-wheeler opened. At that point, the half-wheeler is then forced to match that increase, though no fault of their own, so that they don't get dropped. Got it - the half-wheeler is completely innocent.
It takes two to tango and the half-wheeler is certainly leading (not innocent).

But the half-wheeling can't happen unless the others follow.

You and genejockey are saying the same thing but genejockey is focusing on what the others can do about it (not follow by not increasing their speed).

========================

The thing is that people don't keep a constant speed.

So, the followers likely see the half-wheeling as a normal variation in speed (rather than an attempt at increasing the speed). And it's normal/typical to match speeds.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-03-21 at 01:29 PM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 09-03-21, 01:26 PM
  #116  
Bah Humbug
serious cyclist
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 21,147

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9334 Post(s)
Liked 3,679 Times in 2,026 Posts
Is there a parallel between a half-wheeler inducing the group to accelerate and the OP chumming the water and watching everyone fight?
Bah Humbug is offline  
Likes For Bah Humbug:
Old 09-03-21, 01:38 PM
  #117  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,101
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8187 Post(s)
Liked 8,844 Times in 4,392 Posts
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
Is there a parallel between a half-wheeler inducing the group to accelerate and the OP chumming the water and watching everyone fight?
Good analogy.
big john is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 02:11 PM
  #118  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,656

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,596 Times in 5,943 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker
It takes two to tango and the half-wheeler is certainly leading (not innocent).

But the half-wheeling can't happen unless the others follow.

You and genejockey are saying the same thing but genejockey is focusing on what the others can do about it (not follow by not increasing their speed).
Uh, no. I've been focusing on the unconscious nature of the speed increase. After a while you're going significantly faster than you intended and maybe not knowing how that happened.

========================

The thing is that people don't keep a constant speed.

So, the followers likely see the half-wheeling as a normal variation in speed (rather than an attempt at increasing the speed). And it's normal/typical to match speeds.
The problem being that repeated or continual half-wheeling will lead to progressive acceleration, not normal speed variation.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 02:12 PM
  #119  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
Uh, no. I've been focusing on the unconscious nature of the speed increase. After a while you're going significantly faster than you intended and maybe not knowing how that happened.
That was what I was saying. (If the following is conscious, it's not really half-wheeling.)

The reason they are "not knowing that it happened" is because variation in speed (and matching it) is a regular/normal thing.

Originally Posted by genejockey
The problem being that repeated or continual half-wheeling will lead to progressive acceleration, not normal speed variation.
Clearly, half-wheeling isn't normal speed variation (I didn't say it was).

If the followers know that it's "progressive acceleration" and consciously increase their speed, it's not really half-wheeling.

If the followers don't know "progressive acceleration" is going on, they likely are just matching speed (which is a regular/normal thing).

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-03-21 at 02:24 PM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 09-03-21, 02:16 PM
  #120  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,656

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,596 Times in 5,943 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker
It is what I was saying. (If the following is conscious, it's not really half-wheeling.)


You are repeating what I said.
Then one of us is confused, because I wasn't talking about what people could do, because stopping doing something you aren't aware you're doing is difficult.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 02:31 PM
  #121  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
Then one of us is confused, because I wasn't talking about what people could do, because stopping doing something you aren't aware you're doing is difficult.
Sure, if no one knows that it's happening, they won't do anything different.

You'd think that, after a while of being half-wheeled (over multiple rides), it would dawn on the followers that they are going faster than they want to.

WiFi appears to be saying it should dawn (at some time) on the followers.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-03-21 at 02:34 PM.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 09-03-21, 02:34 PM
  #122  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,656

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,596 Times in 5,943 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker
Sure, if know one knows that it's happening, they won't do anything different.

You'd think that, after a while of being half-wheeled, it would dawn on the followers that they are going faster than they want to.
Oh, I think it does. In my example above of my brother and I running together, both of us realized what was going on, and slowed down. But it kept happening, and we had to keep consciously slowing down every half mile or so.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Old 09-03-21, 02:36 PM
  #123  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,656

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,596 Times in 5,943 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker

WiFi appears to be saying it should dawn (at some time) on the followers.
I'm also sure it dawns on them, too. Something like, "I can usually talk to my neighbor without gasping at this point. What's going on?"
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.