The Useless Forum, and can it be saved?
#26
genec
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I think the problem in part is that people are taking too narrow a view of what a safety issue is and, frankly, the forum is overrun with zealots who insist on driving every single "current events" conversation into the same ground. One of the best threads recently was the "too hot to ride" thread-people don't think of that automatically as a safety issue, but heat exhaustion or heat stroke clearly are a risks people should be aware of, and it's good to hear from people who've actually had to deal with the problem.
I agree with flangehead there are things worth reading and discussing on this forum from time to time. It's the only reason I started this thread, because I think it may be worth saving, and it's teetering on the edge of being a lost cause..
Repetition of topics is endemic to the very nature of a forum where newcomers are always welcomed. I'm sure that happens in all live forums on BF. I find a lot of that interesting because every once in a while, somebody comes up with a fresh approach to a problem that wasn't contained in the 35 threads on the subject that preceded it. Also, it's fun to goof on the "everybody but me is wrong about..." guys.
I agree with flangehead there are things worth reading and discussing on this forum from time to time. It's the only reason I started this thread, because I think it may be worth saving, and it's teetering on the edge of being a lost cause..
Repetition of topics is endemic to the very nature of a forum where newcomers are always welcomed. I'm sure that happens in all live forums on BF. I find a lot of that interesting because every once in a while, somebody comes up with a fresh approach to a problem that wasn't contained in the 35 threads on the subject that preceded it. Also, it's fun to goof on the "everybody but me is wrong about..." guys.
BTW this same issue is why I generally don't post often in A&S any more... the same questions, the same situations... over and over again.
However, I do appreciate the fact that something new can and does show up from time to time. But not often.
#27
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I'm with flangehead on this. I filter through A&S to learn through the experience of others. Analyses of incidents are helpful to the extent that enough info is available. Yep, a few threads descend into the muck of back and forth carping but that's just time to move on.
I'd really like see a lot more advocacy here. I've just started a new thread in that light.
I'd really like see a lot more advocacy here. I've just started a new thread in that light.
I agree with most of that, except that I think the level of info is almost never enough, and those threads almost always turn into debates over what happened.
I think if we're serious about analyzing things to be helpful, we should probably have threads that have hypothetical situations, and just invent the facts. That way, no one needs to change the facts in order to talk about the issue they want to discuss, they can just start their own thread with their own hypothetical.
I think the best analyze the incident threads, btw, are ones where people have said "here's what I did, what do you think or what would you do?" Again, that doesn't really let people argue with the facts, so you can really discuss the issues that the incident raises. The newspaper account threads always suck, and I think but can't prove that they've alienated a lot of people off of this forum.
ETA--looked at your advocacy thread. Yes, more of that! Advocacy is about making people aware of the good parts of cycling at least as much as it is about the dangers of it.
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#28
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#29
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#30
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Someone links a newspaper account of a cyclist being killed, and then we line up to argue our pet theories of who did what wrong to cause it, relying on the tiny snippets of information provided by the news story. It's a completely useless exercise, no one actually tells anyone anything worth conveying, and certainly no one is convinced by anyone else.
I also gave examples where the media lied or got facts wrong in order to advance their agenda of blaming the cyclist.
CTV news reported that Irene Dehem and the driver who killed her were traveling in the same direction and the accident occurred near an intersection. This is totally false. The cyclist was going in the opposite direction on a long stretch of road when the driver drifted into the opposite lane and killed her.
You then suggested the driver might have been passing another car. I pointed out that police interviewed several witnesses and no one mentioned a second car. The "snippets of information" have no value to you because you can't be bothered to look at the pieces. Your only contribution is to attack everyone else.
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#31
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Ignore list says "what?"
#32
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Let me give you one of the saddest stories I know. The decedent was a work colleague, and a great person. Despite being legally blind he would ride his bike a couple miles to catch a bus to work, day in and day out. He was killed when the driver of an automobile lost control on a very gentle curve, hit a guard rail, and then hit him:
https://democratherald.com/news/loca...688592d5e.html
Following an investigation it was determined that it was not likely that the State could prove criminal negligence beyond a reasonable doubt:
https://www.gazettetimes.com/news/lo...2af713158.html
So not every crash is caused by the narrow range of intoxicants and cell phones... I once responded to a crash where a person not familiar with our area drove straight off the road because they were looking at a waterfall that came over the ridge about a thousand feet above the valley floor. No drugs, no cell phone, just not paying attention.
I have driven the road where Grant was killed many times and had wondered how anyone who was not well past three sheets to the wind could lose control on that curve. Now I know. And that is why law enforcement departments have accident investigation teams.
I have had a vehicle steering system fail because a previous owner put SAE grade 2 bolts in a place where the manufacturer's shop manual specified that grade 5 or higher were required. Fortunately my event happened with nobody else on the road and I was able to maintain control well enough to come to a safe stop.
https://democratherald.com/news/loca...688592d5e.html
Following an investigation it was determined that it was not likely that the State could prove criminal negligence beyond a reasonable doubt:
https://www.gazettetimes.com/news/lo...2af713158.html
So not every crash is caused by the narrow range of intoxicants and cell phones... I once responded to a crash where a person not familiar with our area drove straight off the road because they were looking at a waterfall that came over the ridge about a thousand feet above the valley floor. No drugs, no cell phone, just not paying attention.
I have driven the road where Grant was killed many times and had wondered how anyone who was not well past three sheets to the wind could lose control on that curve. Now I know. And that is why law enforcement departments have accident investigation teams.
I have had a vehicle steering system fail because a previous owner put SAE grade 2 bolts in a place where the manufacturer's shop manual specified that grade 5 or higher were required. Fortunately my event happened with nobody else on the road and I was able to maintain control well enough to come to a safe stop.
#33
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#34
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Well aware of that, but it used to be somewhat interesting, now I'm trying to figure out why it isn't any more and if there's anything that can be done to get it back, so to speak. It seems like too important of a category to be the subject of such shabby treatment.
I can't be the only one to notice the rapid drop in active threads, right?
I can't be the only one to notice the rapid drop in active threads, right?
The current breed of A&S proselytizers don't even both to try and dress up their opinions and guesswork about bicycling safety with a semblance of facts or reality. Instead speculation based on crystal ball reading, an obituary and an anecdote or two rules the day on A&S. I believe most level headed posters have abandoned A&S as well as a few other sub forums due to their being no use to even trying to have a rational discussion with such zealots.
#35
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In the past most of the active "interesting" threads were posted by Vehicular Cyclist advocates and a few zealous proselytizers of the theories espoused by the late John Forester. The difference between then and now is that the VC zealots referenced all sort of pseudo scientific "studies" and "analyses" to support their so-called "conclusions" about both Bicycling Safety and Bicycling Advocacy. The responses from those who supported or found fault with those references and conclusions were often quite spirited and perhaps could be considered "interesting." The interest of BF posters in that type of A&S zealotry seems to have dissipated to ashes.
The current breed of A&S proselytizers don't even both to try and dress up their opinions and guesswork about bicycling safety with a semblance of facts or reality. Instead speculation based on crystal ball reading, an obituary and an anecdote or two rules the day on A&S. I believe most level headed posters have abandoned A&S as well as a few other sub forums due to their being no use to even trying to have a rational discussion with such zealots.
The current breed of A&S proselytizers don't even both to try and dress up their opinions and guesswork about bicycling safety with a semblance of facts or reality. Instead speculation based on crystal ball reading, an obituary and an anecdote or two rules the day on A&S. I believe most level headed posters have abandoned A&S as well as a few other sub forums due to their being no use to even trying to have a rational discussion with such zealots.
I think it had been interesting after the VC stuff largely went into the dustbin of history, maybe up to about 18 months or so ago, with enough regular posters balancing out the usual fanatics, but I agree with you that the fanatics are really killing much-needed perspective by just posting ill-informed repetitive nonsense in support of whatever their pet theory is for all the evils in the world that beset us poor victimized heroic cyclists.
I like the idea of having more threads about true advocacy, i.e., actual promotion of cycling as an activity.Moe Zhoost 's post made me realize how thoroughly we're letting "advocacy" become a synonym for complaining about dangers and deaths to the exclusion of giving people any reason they actually should want to ride. For example, I'm of the opinion that promoting ghost bikes is just about the most effective way of killing cycling in this country as it spreads the message cycling=death. Everything I have ever read on the subject suggests that safety increases with the proportion of the population riding, so scaring potential riders off with all the gloomy imagery is actually defeating, not promoting, safety.
Honestly, I think you should probably start a thread on a&s called "I really do like to bike" and explain what you like about it. It's got to be a lot more fun than the banging the head against the wall thing we fall into here (and yes, I mean "we", myself included).
#36
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I like the idea of having more threads about true advocacy, i.e., actual promotion of cycling as an activity.@Moe Zhoost 's post made me realize how thoroughly we're letting "advocacy" become a synonym for complaining about dangers and deaths to the exclusion of giving people any reason they actually should want to ride. For example, I'm of the opinion that promoting ghost bikes is just about the most effective way of killing cycling in this country as it spreads the message cycling=death. Everything I have ever read on the subject suggests that safety increases with the proportion of the population riding, so scaring potential riders off with all the gloomy imagery is actually defeating, not promoting, safety.
However there is a promotion far more effective in scaring off potential riders. Discussion of the "safety promotion" advocacy that is probably the most effective in keeping the proportion of the population riding low, and discouraging casual, recreational, commuting use of bicycles by non-racers and cyclists who do not identify themselves as "enthusiasts", can be found in a sticky thread with the most views listed at the top of this sub-forum.
#37
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I agree with your opinion about the negative value of ghost bikes as well as other macabre activities by so-called bicycling advocates like silent rides and obsessive posting of cyclists' obituaries.
However there is a promotion far more effective in scaring off potential riders. Discussion of the "safety promotion" advocacy that is probably the most effective in keeping the proportion of the population riding low, and discouraging casual, recreational, commuting use of bicycles by non-racers and cyclists who do not identify themselves as "enthusiasts", can be found in a sticky thread with the most views listed at the top of this sub-forum.
However there is a promotion far more effective in scaring off potential riders. Discussion of the "safety promotion" advocacy that is probably the most effective in keeping the proportion of the population riding low, and discouraging casual, recreational, commuting use of bicycles by non-racers and cyclists who do not identify themselves as "enthusiasts", can be found in a sticky thread with the most views listed at the top of this sub-forum.
#38
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I like the idea of having more threads about true advocacy, i.e., actual promotion of cycling as an activity.Moe Zhoost 's post made me realize how thoroughly we're letting "advocacy" become a synonym for complaining about dangers and deaths to the exclusion of giving people any reason they actually should want to ride.
Just Ride is a revelation. Forget the ultralight, uncomfortable bikes, flashy jerseys, clunky shoes that clip onto tiny pedals, the grinding out of endless miles. Instead, ride like you did when you were a kid—just get on your bike and discover the pure joy of riding it.
A reformed racer who’s commuted by bike every day since 1980, whose writings and opinions appear in major bicycling and outdoor magazines, and whose company, Rivendell Bicycle Works, makes bikes for riders ready to opt out of a culture overrun by racing, Grant Petersen shares a lifetime of unexpected facts, controversial opinions, expert techniques, and his own maverick philosophy.
A reformed racer who’s commuted by bike every day since 1980, whose writings and opinions appear in major bicycling and outdoor magazines, and whose company, Rivendell Bicycle Works, makes bikes for riders ready to opt out of a culture overrun by racing, Grant Petersen shares a lifetime of unexpected facts, controversial opinions, expert techniques, and his own maverick philosophy.
Note: I don't think Mr. Peterson's overpriced bicycles and emphasis on aesthetics, geometry, bar tape and other snobish quirks are the answer to getting a higher proportaion of the public to consider bicycle riding as a practical means of transporting oneself about town.
#39
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#40
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I just finished the book, Just Ride, by Grant Peterson. Review at https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9189678-just-ride
I share his opinion on the negative effect on overall bicycling use by the emphasis on racing derived design and rider objectives (speed, weight, distance) by bicycling industry marketeers and press/social media pundits and cycling enthusiast exclusivity.
Note: I don't think Mr. Peterson's overpriced bicycles and emphasis on aesthetics, geometry, bar tape and other snobish quirks are the answer to getting a higher proportaion of the public to consider bicycle riding as a practical means of transporting oneself about town.
I share his opinion on the negative effect on overall bicycling use by the emphasis on racing derived design and rider objectives (speed, weight, distance) by bicycling industry marketeers and press/social media pundits and cycling enthusiast exclusivity.
Note: I don't think Mr. Peterson's overpriced bicycles and emphasis on aesthetics, geometry, bar tape and other snobish quirks are the answer to getting a higher proportaion of the public to consider bicycle riding as a practical means of transporting oneself about town.
I agree with you that the egalitarian ethos of the book's mismatch with his quirky elitist bikes is rather jarring. And you can take my STI out of my cold dead hands.
#41
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#42
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The problem with A&S Forum as I've seen it over the years is that many of the A&S regulars have no interest in bicycle SAFETY, only bicycle LAWS that are often written up by lawmakers that don't ride bikes. Just because it is legal to do something does not make it SAFE. And just because some riding techniques are not legal does not mean they are inherently dangerous in every situation.
So the unthinking law book thumpers here generally run off anyone (except the most stubborn) with the cognitive ability to think for themselves.
Enjoy your stay however long or short that may be. This joint ain't changing.
So the unthinking law book thumpers here generally run off anyone (except the most stubborn) with the cognitive ability to think for themselves.
Enjoy your stay however long or short that may be. This joint ain't changing.
#43
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I don't have the numbers, and am willing to be educated about the "market", but I suspect that the market for expensive "enthusiast approved" lightweight racing bikes has always been a small fraction of the total number of bicycles sold in the U.S. when "the market" includes ALL bicycle sales outlets, and not just LBS and online sales of bicycles to adult enthusiasts, and does not weight the count based on the retail price of the units. Bikes that ape the looks of the racing bikes ,with dropped handlebars, extreme geometry, narrow high pressure tires, pedal /shoe systems, no clearance or fittings for fenders or racks, etc. and not really designed for any bicycling purpose other than posing always seemed much more popular on Bike Forums and perhaps on club rides and at locations where enthusiasts congregate, than seen elsewhere in the wild.
#44
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A corollary to the above statements is that just because a cyclist, or group of cyclists, practice dangerous riding technique and usually get away with it both legally and without injury, does not make the practice either legal, safe, or even sensible. Riding under the influence of drugs or drink would be an example. For another example, riding at high speed in large tight groups on public highways in such a manner that the cyclists cannot take independent action to react (i.e. slow down or steer) to changing traffic situations, or even stop at stop signs if the leader of the tight group chose not to stop.
#45
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I don't have the numbers, and am willing to be educated about the "market", but I suspect that the market for expensive "enthusiast approved" lightweight racing bikes has always been a small fraction of the total number of bicycles sold in the U.S. when "the market" includes ALL bicycle sales outlets, and not just LBS and online sales of bicycles to adult enthusiasts, and does not weight the count based on the retail price of the units. Bikes that ape the looks of the racing bikes ,with dropped handlebars, extreme geometry, narrow high pressure tires, pedal /shoe systems, no clearance or fittings for fenders or racks, etc. and not really designed for any bicycling purpose other than posing always seemed much more popular on Bike Forums and perhaps on club rides and at locations where enthusiasts congregate, than seen elsewhere in the wild.
Well, if that's true, Grant Peterson never had much of a point. What exactly was being driven out of bicycling by racing bike mentality?
I ride two 1990s racing bikes for fun. I never race, and they're plenty comfortable for 100-150 mile rides. Your statement that they're suitable only for posing is absurd. They're not for everyone, but the notion that me riding them is ruining cycling is stupid. Frankly, I think you're pulling the same "I'm a real bicyclist and you're not" bit, just in reverse.
I think it's great to talk about the market as a whole, but it's clear Grant was talking about the high end stuff, he just wasn't explicit about it. And that high end stuff is a lot less racing oriented now than when he wrote the book.
Not sure why you need to complain so much about other people's preferences and talk so little about yours, but that's not where I want this thread to go so I'm bowing out of this conversation unless you start actually discussing what you'd like to advocate for instead of railing against.
#46
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The problem with A&S Forum as I've seen it over the years is that many of the A&S regulars have no interest in bicycle SAFETY, only bicycle LAWS that are often written up by lawmakers that don't ride bikes. Just because it is legal to do something does not make it SAFE. And just because some riding techniques are not legal does not mean they are inherently dangerous in every situation.
So the unthinking law book thumpers here generally run off anyone (except the most stubborn) with the cognitive ability to think for themselves.
Enjoy your stay however long or short that may be. This joint ain't changing.
So the unthinking law book thumpers here generally run off anyone (except the most stubborn) with the cognitive ability to think for themselves.
Enjoy your stay however long or short that may be. This joint ain't changing.
I don't see that, much. We've had arguments between people who slavishly obey every stop sign and others who have been riding like they're in Idaho even if they aren't (I'm in that camp myself), but I think the notion that "law book thumpers" have run people off is nonsense. There's never been enough of such people here to run off a squirrel.
I have seen you claim something was legal then have to retract it when I showed you the ordinance, but that was ancient history, and I don't think that's what you're talking about.
Does this mean you are actually off your "all bicycling is inherently dangerous because it's a war zone" kick?
#47
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What I find most compelling are the things I used to ignorantly do or could see myself doing, that turn out on detailed understanding to be potentially deadly.
With regard to vehicular cycling, there's a basic reality that its de-emphasis in favor of designated positions means that the incidents which do occur are going to tend to occur in precisely the situations VC teaches avoiding ever entering into.
On the one hand, infrastructure which popularizes cycling creates a degree of safety in numbers that make the possibility of cyclists one of more omnipresent awareness. On the other, dedicated infrastructure tends to drop the ball and leave cyclists in truly deadly (but often deceptively safe feeling) situations where it does interact with traffic at intersections in ways that preclude a protected continuation. An incident happens, people cry out for dedicated signal phases, then a year later are outraged when they get ticketed for proceeding through on a light phase where cars can turn or go straight, but bikes are required to wait.
At the end of the day, whatever the route or infrastructure or decision to use it or not use it, what really matters is understanding in full nuance the CONSEQUENCES of that choice.
And cycling forums are chock full of posts from people displaying gross ignorance of the reality of the situations they're talking about. Some of those ignorant positions are views I once held, perhaps a few are views I still do.
It's about learning.
With regard to vehicular cycling, there's a basic reality that its de-emphasis in favor of designated positions means that the incidents which do occur are going to tend to occur in precisely the situations VC teaches avoiding ever entering into.
On the one hand, infrastructure which popularizes cycling creates a degree of safety in numbers that make the possibility of cyclists one of more omnipresent awareness. On the other, dedicated infrastructure tends to drop the ball and leave cyclists in truly deadly (but often deceptively safe feeling) situations where it does interact with traffic at intersections in ways that preclude a protected continuation. An incident happens, people cry out for dedicated signal phases, then a year later are outraged when they get ticketed for proceeding through on a light phase where cars can turn or go straight, but bikes are required to wait.
At the end of the day, whatever the route or infrastructure or decision to use it or not use it, what really matters is understanding in full nuance the CONSEQUENCES of that choice.
And cycling forums are chock full of posts from people displaying gross ignorance of the reality of the situations they're talking about. Some of those ignorant positions are views I once held, perhaps a few are views I still do.
It's about learning.
Last edited by UniChris; 07-18-21 at 12:22 AM.
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#48
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it'd be good info to estab the current bicycle laws of each state if it were centrally contained in A&S.
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#49
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LAB has a web page that does this. I cannot vouch for the currency. I checked NH law, and they haven't updated it to reflect a 5 year old hands-free law. I don't have the time to check the other states, but I think it's still a good starting point.
https://bikeleague.org/StateBikeLaws
#50
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Compiling and maintaining that list would be a full-time job, wouldn't it?
LAB has a web page that does this. I cannot vouch for the currency. I checked NH law, and they haven't updated it to reflect a 5 year old hands-free law. I don't have the time to check the other states, but I think it's still a good starting point.
https://bikeleague.org/StateBikeLaws
LAB has a web page that does this. I cannot vouch for the currency. I checked NH law, and they haven't updated it to reflect a 5 year old hands-free law. I don't have the time to check the other states, but I think it's still a good starting point.
https://bikeleague.org/StateBikeLaws
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