New derailleur for vintage Fuji. New chain too?
11-09-21, 07:43 AM
#1
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New derailleur for vintage Fuji. New chain too?
Hi, all. I have a 1970s Fuji Gran Tourer. The other week I got a tune-up at my LBS. It did wonders for my bike.
The owner also recommended swapping in a used but more modern Shimano rear derailleur (photo included) for the original Suntour VX. Shifting definitely seems smoother now; I also feel like there is less resistance in the drivetrain perhaps? But I also wonder if this is due to everything being freshly oiled and lubed, or even due to the psychological factor?
He also offered to sell me a used Shimano HG71 chain for $45. I held off on this since I'm on a budget. Is this a good recommendation? A good price? My current chain seems pretty old. It was on the bike when I bought it a year and a half ago, but I don't know its history before that. Should I get a new chain, and if so should I buy the HG71 from the LBS owner or go with something else?
I read a lot of folks saying to replace freewheels and chains at the same time. My 6-speed freewheel doesn't seem to have much noticeable wear (picture included). The chainring has a few chipped teeth, but it works fine and I'd like to keep it since it has the Fuji-branded cranks.
My chain has never skipped or had any functional problems. I'm just wondering what would get me the best performance and also don't want to keep using a too-old chain if that's going to mess up other parts of the drivetrain. For all I know the current chain may be fine, though.
In short:
Is the rear derailleur my LBS installed a good choice? (I kept my old Suntour as a backup or in case I ever want to switch back.) Was upgrading the right call and was this Shimano one the right call? What, if anything, should I do about the chain and/or freewheel? Would really appreciate any advice. Thanks!
1970s Fuji Gran Tourer.
I prefer to keep this chainring as long as possible because I love the Fuji cranks, which don't separate from the ring. Also stayed with the original front derailleur because it looks nice and works well.
Used Shimano rear derailleur that LBS installed.
Freewheel cogs look fine to me, but I'm not an expert.
The owner also recommended swapping in a used but more modern Shimano rear derailleur (photo included) for the original Suntour VX. Shifting definitely seems smoother now; I also feel like there is less resistance in the drivetrain perhaps? But I also wonder if this is due to everything being freshly oiled and lubed, or even due to the psychological factor?
He also offered to sell me a used Shimano HG71 chain for $45. I held off on this since I'm on a budget. Is this a good recommendation? A good price? My current chain seems pretty old. It was on the bike when I bought it a year and a half ago, but I don't know its history before that. Should I get a new chain, and if so should I buy the HG71 from the LBS owner or go with something else?
I read a lot of folks saying to replace freewheels and chains at the same time. My 6-speed freewheel doesn't seem to have much noticeable wear (picture included). The chainring has a few chipped teeth, but it works fine and I'd like to keep it since it has the Fuji-branded cranks.
My chain has never skipped or had any functional problems. I'm just wondering what would get me the best performance and also don't want to keep using a too-old chain if that's going to mess up other parts of the drivetrain. For all I know the current chain may be fine, though.
In short:
Is the rear derailleur my LBS installed a good choice? (I kept my old Suntour as a backup or in case I ever want to switch back.) Was upgrading the right call and was this Shimano one the right call? What, if anything, should I do about the chain and/or freewheel? Would really appreciate any advice. Thanks!
1970s Fuji Gran Tourer.
I prefer to keep this chainring as long as possible because I love the Fuji cranks, which don't separate from the ring. Also stayed with the original front derailleur because it looks nice and works well.
Used Shimano rear derailleur that LBS installed.
Freewheel cogs look fine to me, but I'm not an expert.
11-09-21, 07:57 AM
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I think Suntour VX has a good reputation, but I will let others with more experience comment on specifics of that. Did the mechanic give a reason for switching the derailleur? Regardless, I hope you didn’t get charged more than $15-20 for it. Replacing a worn chain and cables is the simplest thing to do to improve shifting. $45 is a lot for HG71 chain, but maybe that includes installation as well. Regardless I use KMC 8 speed chains for my 6,7,8 speed bikes, both friction and indexed shifting. They come with a removable master link. You can read up, first on how to check chain wear, then on how to measure proper chain length. Buy a chain with a master link, a simple chain tool to remove excess chain, pop the chain on and ride.
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11-09-21, 08:10 AM
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I'm assuming that they used the Vx with the long GT cage, which also has the split chain feature that allows one to slip the chain from within the pulley cage without breaking it. Yes, Vx is superior to that SIS derailleur, but both would shift acceptably in that set-up (includes your flat cogged SunTour freewheel).
Is that a 30-tooth largest cog? I wonder if the shorter cage Vx could reach that. There is a B-screw adjustment.
Your drivetrain needs cleaning. The chainrings should shine. A little WD40 onto a rag or thick shoelace and go to town. Don't spray onto the bike, because splatter will get on your rim walls inevitably.
Is that a 30-tooth largest cog? I wonder if the shorter cage Vx could reach that. There is a B-screw adjustment.
Your drivetrain needs cleaning. The chainrings should shine. A little WD40 onto a rag or thick shoelace and go to town. Don't spray onto the bike, because splatter will get on your rim walls inevitably.
11-09-21, 08:14 AM
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Well, I'm no expert but can give you my experience with such a setup. I found the rear Suntour VX to function perfectly fine on my Fuji of the same era and wanted to keep it because it was pantographed Fuji. I converted my Fuji to a 650b setup and kept all the stock components except for the brakes. Had to switch to long reach ones. I had no problems with the RD working just fine with the stock DT shifters. It was covering a modern 8 speed cassette with a new chain so I'm sure that helped. If it was me I'd give the old RD a good clean and service and then put it back on. Much nicer look on the bike than the Shimano and Suntour is quality gear.
The pic was shot before the new chain and cables were done.
The pic was shot before the new chain and cables were done.
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11-09-21, 08:19 AM
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45 dollars for a used Shimano chain? Whoever in CV land “buys” a used chain? A new 15 dollar KMC, would have been the way to go. Kind of shudder to think what they charged you for that used derailleur, which possibly could be a slight improvement over the Suntour VX, as it is SIS capable, even though the rest of your drivetrain is not.
That bike doesn’t appear to have a lot of miles, or hard use, would have been nice if the bike shop had just replaced the cables, repacked the bearings, and lubed the derailleurs and brakes.
Sorry, don’t mean to be harsh, but when it comes to servicing old bikes, the local LBS is usually not the place to go. You go there to buy a new one.
Tim
That bike doesn’t appear to have a lot of miles, or hard use, would have been nice if the bike shop had just replaced the cables, repacked the bearings, and lubed the derailleurs and brakes.
Sorry, don’t mean to be harsh, but when it comes to servicing old bikes, the local LBS is usually not the place to go. You go there to buy a new one.
Tim
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11-09-21, 08:36 AM
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A six-sprocket freewheel doeesn't need a fancy-pants Shimano chain, new or used. A brand-new SRAM or KMC 7-speed chain will work fine for about US$20. You can put the money you save toward a new freewheel, if the new chain doesn't mesh well with your worn freewheel.
11-09-21, 09:14 AM
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I think Suntour VX has a good reputation, but I will let others with more experience comment on specifics of that. Did the mechanic give a reason for switching the derailleur? Regardless, I hope you didn’t get charged more than $15-20 for it. Replacing a worn chain and cables is the simplest thing to do to improve shifting. $45 is a lot for HG71 chain, but maybe that includes installation as well. Regardless I use KMC 8 speed chains for my 6,7,8 speed bikes, both friction and indexed shifting. They come with a removable master link. You can read up, first on how to check chain wear, then on how to measure proper chain length. Buy a chain with a master link, a simple chain tool to remove excess chain, pop the chain on and ride.
im going to put the VX back on. About 10 months ago I took the vx rd completely apart and cleaned and greased it. I’m guessing it’s fine.
Well at least most of what I paid was for the tube-up. At least that helped. My brakes were very jerky before. The smoothness in riding versus before is probably due more to the tune up than the new derailleur.
11-09-21, 09:30 AM
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I'm assuming that they used the Vx with the long GT cage, which also has the split chain feature that allows one to slip the chain from within the pulley cage without breaking it. Yes, Vx is superior to that SIS derailleur, but both would shift acceptably in that set-up (includes your flat cogged SunTour freewheel).
Is that a 30-tooth largest cog? I wonder if the shorter cage Vx could reach that. There is a B-screw adjustment.
Your drivetrain needs cleaning. The chainrings should shine. A little WD40 onto a rag or thick shoelace and go to town. Don't spray onto the bike, because splatter will get on your rim walls inevitably.
Is that a 30-tooth largest cog? I wonder if the shorter cage Vx could reach that. There is a B-screw adjustment.
Your drivetrain needs cleaning. The chainrings should shine. A little WD40 onto a rag or thick shoelace and go to town. Don't spray onto the bike, because splatter will get on your rim walls inevitably.
The Shimano RD seems very clogged with dirt and muck and not too well maintained.
also, yes you can take the vx on and off without breaking the chain which is great.
LBS said the bike would run much quieter but now that I’m a week out from the tuneup it’s just as noisy as before. Makes me think the noisy bit is probably the chain.
The shopkeeper said something about derailleurs post 1990 being so much more accurate, smooth, etc. The shop was a few days out from closing down due to a rent increase and would reopen if they found a new location. Had a whole box of used derailleurs. My guess is he just thought he’d spout a bunch of malarkey and foist one on me to make a few extra bucks.
11-09-21, 10:18 AM
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Re: post-1990.
The difference of the SIS-like derailleurs is that the guide (upper) pulley has a few millimeters of lateral movement within its caged position. This was to enable indexed shift movements to self-center after the shift. The SunTour had no such play, since in friction shifting the assumption is that the rider will tune the position of the guide pulley manually.
The difference of the SIS-like derailleurs is that the guide (upper) pulley has a few millimeters of lateral movement within its caged position. This was to enable indexed shift movements to self-center after the shift. The SunTour had no such play, since in friction shifting the assumption is that the rider will tune the position of the guide pulley manually.
11-09-21, 10:37 AM
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To definitively determine whether you need a new chain, either buy a Park Tools CC-4 chain checker for $15 or measure the chain using a steel ruler as shown on this page: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-wear.html. If everything is within spec, just clean and lube the chain. If not, replace with an 8-speed chain as suggested above. Do NOT buy a used chain from that guy. He gone done you wrong!
I also agree that you should stick with the Vx derailleur.
I also agree that you should stick with the Vx derailleur.
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11-09-21, 10:52 AM
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...there's nothing wrong with that Shimano derailleur, from a functional standpoint. It will certainly do the job required. But it's a low end Shimano product, as you can tell from the general fugliness of it, and the stamped steel cog cage. The only justifiable reason for swapping it out, would be to convert your bike to indexed shifting on a budget. Which clearly has not been done.
I share the dismay of others on the used chain offer. I would not go back to that place.
...there's nothing wrong with that Shimano derailleur, from a functional standpoint. It will certainly do the job required. But it's a low end Shimano product, as you can tell from the general fugliness of it, and the stamped steel cog cage. The only justifiable reason for swapping it out, would be to convert your bike to indexed shifting on a budget. Which clearly has not been done.
I share the dismay of others on the used chain offer. I would not go back to that place.
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11-09-21, 11:22 AM
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A six-sprocket freewheel doeesn't need a fancy-pants Shimano chain, new or used. A brand-new SRAM or KMC 7-speed chain will work fine for about US$20. You can put the money you save toward a new freewheel, if the new chain doesn't mesh well with your worn freewheel.
SRAM PC-830 Chain (Silver) (6-8 Speed) (114 Links) [46.2758.114.005] Price: $10.99
That would be suitable right?
11-09-21, 11:30 AM
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In my garage shop I have at least one of almost every derailleur Suntour ever built. I have cleaned and reused lots of them on bikes I have restored for the Bike Exchange. In all that time I have seen maybe 5 that were damaged . Unless you want to go with index shifting I see no reason to switch to Shimano. What I would highly recommend is to change that freewheel to a new Shimano Hyperglide. You will get greatly improved shifting. With the old Suntour freewheel you may experience over shifting where the chain goes from say 3rd position to 5th instead of 4th . The Hyperglide freewheel will probably eliminate this entirely. the ramps on the cogs will catch the chain with just a nudge of the shift lever and pop it onto the next cog. I second the recommendation for a new KMC 8 spd chain if you do switch Freewheels. doing so will enhance the shifting even more. I noticed you have the spring loaded Suntour ratchet stem shifter. That is the best stem shifter out there. the spring loaded ratchet mech makes shifting effortless. The only other change I would make would be to change out those bars for a set of 2" riser bars and a set of Suntour ratchet thumb shifters (Sunrace makes a very inexpensive set of friction thumbies that also work great if you can't find the Suntour set) . This lets you keep your hands on the bars at all times even when you are shifting and also lets you sit more upright which at my advanced age is more comfortable.
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11-09-21, 11:53 AM
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That should be fine, with the caveat that a new chain doesn't always mesh well with worn sprockets. The problem is particularly evident with the smallest sprockets, as the wear is concentrated on fewer teeth. Chain and sprockets are often replaced together, for that reason.
11-09-21, 12:13 PM
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Wow, thank you all.
I'm going to go with the KMC chain. By the way, why is an 8-speed chain the best choice for a 6-speed freewheel?
I once detached the VX RD before and reattached it, so swapping out the Shimano and reattaching the VX should be something I can do on my own.
If I do end up getting a new freewheel, which Shimano hyperglide do you recommend?
Also, as for the shop it was Rollin' Cycles in Washington DC and they closed a few days after I got my bike back. Good riddance! I'm particularly annoyed because my bike was spotlessly clean when it went in; when they gave it back to me they'd gotten grease all over the frame. I'm going to wash and wax the frame all over again.
I'm going to go with the KMC chain. By the way, why is an 8-speed chain the best choice for a 6-speed freewheel?
I once detached the VX RD before and reattached it, so swapping out the Shimano and reattaching the VX should be something I can do on my own.
If I do end up getting a new freewheel, which Shimano hyperglide do you recommend?
Also, as for the shop it was Rollin' Cycles in Washington DC and they closed a few days after I got my bike back. Good riddance! I'm particularly annoyed because my bike was spotlessly clean when it went in; when they gave it back to me they'd gotten grease all over the frame. I'm going to wash and wax the frame all over again.
11-09-21, 01:59 PM
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Personally, I'd stick with the freewheel you have unless you have problems with the new chain skipping (meaning worn freewheel cogs). The reason is that most freewheels these days max out at 28 teeth. It looks like you have a 30 or 32 tooth freewheel there which gives you a significantly lower low gear than with a 28. It's true that hyperglide gives you smoother shifts but it's not that big a deal IMHO.
The reason to go with 8-speed chains is that nobody is really making 5- or 6- speed chains any more and the 8-speed ones work fine with 5- or 6-speed freewheels. Note that you will need a chain tool to remove the old chain and shorten the new chain to the correct length. A couple of differences that you will need to note if getting a new chain: 1) you will need to use a master link to join the chain ends...should be supplied with the chain; 2) do not join the chain ends or add links to the chain using the chain tool...the reason is that the pins on modern narrow chains are peened, and using the chain tool to push the pin out ruins the pin and makes the chain substantially weaker if you reuse it. You can injure yourself having a chain snap while under full load (ask me how I know).
The reason to go with 8-speed chains is that nobody is really making 5- or 6- speed chains any more and the 8-speed ones work fine with 5- or 6-speed freewheels. Note that you will need a chain tool to remove the old chain and shorten the new chain to the correct length. A couple of differences that you will need to note if getting a new chain: 1) you will need to use a master link to join the chain ends...should be supplied with the chain; 2) do not join the chain ends or add links to the chain using the chain tool...the reason is that the pins on modern narrow chains are peened, and using the chain tool to push the pin out ruins the pin and makes the chain substantially weaker if you reuse it. You can injure yourself having a chain snap while under full load (ask me how I know).
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11-10-21, 07:06 AM
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Yes 8 speed chain is the way to go for anything, well, up to 8 speeds. Changing a chain sounds daunting to someone just getting into wrenching, but once you have the chain tool, you are good to go, you will never take your bike to a shop for a chain swap again. Google "Sheldon chain length" and use the picture he provided. It has never steered me wrong. Get a Park Tool chain checker, too, it is a simple, cheap, and easy way to keep track of wear.
Nice Fuji, many more miles ahead with that steed!
Nice Fuji, many more miles ahead with that steed!
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11-10-21, 07:53 AM
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Wrong cable stop on Shimano pictured; not a trustworthy shop. DIY or hope you find another shop.
Sorry to see this.
Sorry to see this.
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11-11-21, 08:15 AM
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Good point. I reinstalled my Suntour RD the other day and it’s working great. Going to get a chain checker tool and a new chain if needed and just handle it myself.
11-12-21, 10:01 AM
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Personally, I'd stick with the freewheel you have unless you have problems with the new chain skipping (meaning worn freewheel cogs). The reason is that most freewheels these days max out at 28 teeth. It looks like you have a 30 or 32 tooth freewheel there which gives you a significantly lower low gear than with a 28. It's true that hyperglide gives you smoother shifts but it's not that big a deal IMHO.
The reason to go with 8-speed chains is that nobody is really making 5- or 6- speed chains any more and the 8-speed ones work fine with 5- or 6-speed freewheels. Note that you will need a chain tool to remove the old chain and shorten the new chain to the correct length. A couple of differences that you will need to note if getting a new chain: 1) you will need to use a master link to join the chain ends...should be supplied with the chain; 2) do not join the chain ends or add links to the chain using the chain tool...the reason is that the pins on modern narrow chains are peened, and using the chain tool to push the pin out ruins the pin and makes the chain substantially weaker if you reuse it. You can injure yourself having a chain snap while under full load (ask me how I know).
The reason to go with 8-speed chains is that nobody is really making 5- or 6- speed chains any more and the 8-speed ones work fine with 5- or 6-speed freewheels. Note that you will need a chain tool to remove the old chain and shorten the new chain to the correct length. A couple of differences that you will need to note if getting a new chain: 1) you will need to use a master link to join the chain ends...should be supplied with the chain; 2) do not join the chain ends or add links to the chain using the chain tool...the reason is that the pins on modern narrow chains are peened, and using the chain tool to push the pin out ruins the pin and makes the chain substantially weaker if you reuse it. You can injure yourself having a chain snap while under full load (ask me how I know).
As long as there is no skipping with the new chain, I'm going to stick with my Suntour 6s freewheel. However, I imagine that if it's not already worn out it eventually will get to that point. Now or in the future, when the time comes for a new freewheel I wonder what I should do. I've noticed that Sunrace has 7-speed freewheels where the lowest gear is 34 teeth. Would that work with this bike and derailleur?
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11-13-21, 10:10 AM
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Yeah, that shop hosed you! For your Friction shifting system as it sits they really made no improvement installing that low end Shimano RD, that VX is a good RD. You would need a Long Cage/GT RD to go to a 34th FW or that Shimano RD. I like setting up Friction Shifting bikes using A SIS Freewheel along with a SIS Chain, once lubed and adjusted the shifting will be like butter.
Glenn
Glenn
11-19-21, 10:41 AM
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Thanks again, bicycle amigos. Not only was the low-end Shimano derailleur not an improvement but it quickly started malfunctioning shortly after my last post. I would shift but the chain wouldn't change gears. To get it to shift at all I would have to go further on the lever, until the chain would finally jump several gears and I'd have to correct back to where I wanted to be. Also, the Shimano RD was so ugly.
I reinstalled the VX and things were immediately working smoothly again. A few days later my $16 8-speed KMC X8 chain arrived. I gave the front and rear gears the best cleaning I ever have and installed the new chain, which was already very well lubed from the factory.
OMFG is this new chain AMAZING. Fortunately, not a single problem with it fitting the gears - no skipping or anything like that. One or two ghost shifts, but I soon got used to the sound and feel of the new chain and haven't had a single ghost shift since. My drivetrain used to be very loud, with a sound like a Model T that needs a tune-up. Now, it's a pleasant, low purr, quiet enough to be smooth and unobtrusive but audible enough to hear gear changes and shift without ghosting.
Thanks again for all the help! This RD is a keeper!
I reinstalled the VX and things were immediately working smoothly again. A few days later my $16 8-speed KMC X8 chain arrived. I gave the front and rear gears the best cleaning I ever have and installed the new chain, which was already very well lubed from the factory.
OMFG is this new chain AMAZING. Fortunately, not a single problem with it fitting the gears - no skipping or anything like that. One or two ghost shifts, but I soon got used to the sound and feel of the new chain and haven't had a single ghost shift since. My drivetrain used to be very loud, with a sound like a Model T that needs a tune-up. Now, it's a pleasant, low purr, quiet enough to be smooth and unobtrusive but audible enough to hear gear changes and shift without ghosting.
Thanks again for all the help! This RD is a keeper!
11-19-21, 04:27 PM
#23
Senior Member
If it were me they'd find that hunk of Shimano junk one morning underneath their biggest window with a bunch of glass around it. They knew what they were doing and I'm sure you weren't the only one they did this to. They deserve to go out of business.
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