Sizzle-Chest

Hi All,

I recently bought this Torelli Super Strada and I love the way it rides/handles but I'm underwhelmed by the drivetrain. Currently, I believe it has Campagnolo 990 derailleurs, Gran Sport shifters and a Regina Oro 6 speed freewheel. It might be that I'm just used to my modern 10 speed drivetrain, but I've had a number of vintage bikes that shifted much better than this. Anyway, I'm considering changing things up with other stuff I have available and I would like to get your advice. Oh, and the bike's main purpose is for winter training, group rides . . . etc. not going to be racing it or anything.

Option one would be to use a period Suntour Cyclone 7000 group. Probably the easiest since I could use the same wheels. Also, it would keep the vintage look.

Option two would be to use a newer, 90's Shimano RSX100 8 speed group. Would of course require a different set of wheels.

Option three is to use a modern Sram Force 10 speed group, which would require the most modification.

Option four would be to just buy a new chain and cables, and hope that makes all the difference.

The Golden Boy 

EDIT: I have difficulty reading...

Cyclone 7000.

Accushift stuff is cool. I haven't used the Cyclone stuff, but I've used Superbe Pro, XC Pro and XC Comp- And those derailleurs are really nice using friction shifters as well...

John E

Option #1 should replacing that Regina freewheel with a Japanese 6- or 7-speed, which will have a more shift-friendly teeth profile. Replace the chain with a good SRAM "8-speed." If you are still unhappy, replace that parallelogram derailleur with a SunTour. (The Campag. front should be fine.) Route the rear brake cable over the handlebars.

GREAT looking bike, by the way, and I am not surprised you are pleased with the ride quality.

The Golden Boy 

I have a couple of bikes with brake cables behind the bars, and a couple of bikes with the cables in front. I think I like them better in front.

Sizzle-Chest

Great advice everyone! I think I'll start with the easiest, as suggested, and replace the freewheel and chain, then work my way through components until shifting feels adequate.

Re: housing, not sure why it was set up that way but it needs to changed. I plan to tear it down, clean and rebuild it next week so I'll probably just wait until then.

dddd

Great riding bikes those Torellis! They rival the very best bikes imho, so obviously designed and built by one of Italy's many, truly great contract builders.

Certainly the cabling can be improved on any old bike, followed by the chain and freewheel.

Possibly a new/modern chain will work well on the existing Italian freewheel, but not always.

The pullies can be lubed with oil with the bike layed over, and no need for bolt removal there, but do check that the bolts are tight.

Don't forget that the shift lever pivots need oil too, better to grease up the entire assembly but carefully keep track of the exact assembly order!!!

Mine shifted well with a 13-23t freewheel, but I don't remember many details from that long ago. The new owner loved the bike as much as I did.

Sizzle-Chest

This raises a good question: anyone here 'mech' savvy enough to say how large a freewheel I can use with the 990 derailleur? There's no angle adjustment screw, and considering I will be buying a different freewheel I would rather not find out through trial an error. Thanks again!

dddd

I wouldn't count on more than 26t, but with proper chain length and with the axle positioned in the dropout slots to best advantage, 28t would likely be possible imo.

I usually get best shifting with the axle well foreward, but that has less to do with maximum freewheel cog size and more to do with crisp shifting performance.

These Torellis are classic performance bikes and I almost cringe to see one festooned with at-the-limit low gearing with Shimano's logo on the biggest cog. I would put on a Sunrace 7sp 13-25t freewheel or any nice older Shimano or Suntour freewheel with perhaps 13-24 or 13-26t.
I hope you are well size-fitted to your bike and enjoy it to the fullest.

Sizzle-Chest

Awesome advice, thanks so much!!!

Regarding a few things you mentioned, I would never, ever put one of those goofy looking Shimano freewheels on a bike like this. I actually have a 7 speed Sunrace freewheel but the largest cog is 28t. Before I resort to using it I would first like to try and find something a bit tighter.

Funny about the bike fit, this frame has the exact same top-tube, seat tube, reach, stem and head-tube length as my custom built cross bike. Of course, the angles are different, but how often does that happen when you go to look at a used bike?!

xkjzix

Not that I have loads of experience, but with some tuning I got very reliable and quick shifting out of my Suntour a-4050 indexed group. You can find NOS rear derailleurs for less than $70. You can find used ones in the $40 range.

If you're down with friction shifters, Cyclone II is durable as hell and seems to work well.

SJX426 

It may be trial and error on the drive train may be required. I was surprised to find that a Regina CX/CXS freewheel performed better than a tooth tweaked freewheel using my NR DR. The chain is a Suntour Ultra from the late 70's.

Cable rounting for me is always about maximum radius bends. If it naturally falls behind the bar due to the stem lenght, so be it. Same is true for cable that will naturally fall in front of the bar with shorter stem or clamps closer to the HT. Of course I always rount the front brake to the right side which is a bigger discussion than if the cable is in the front or back of the handle bar. Hey, it is my bike and I ride it. I don't need you to like my configuriatnon!

Sizzle-Chest

I believe that was a higher-end model than the Oro. Does it also employ symmetrical profile teeth? According to what I read from Frank Berto, the flat, grooved tooth-top sometimes causes the chain to ride on top, requiring overshifting, which I have found this to be the case.

zukahn1 

+1 These older Campy type short cage DR's are speced to run 13/14 to 26t 5/6speed but will usually take a 28t and 7sp with a little tweaking. I would also suggest you go with a 13-25T Sunrace modern 8speed chain and friction shifting. The modern ramped freewheel with slightly narrower chain and spacing will make a world of difference and is a low cost way to go about $30 for both.

Sizzle-Chest

Check this, went to the local bike-recycle and found this 7 speed Sante sitting on top of a pile of rusty old freewheels! Got it and this Avocet Racing saddle for 10 smackers! Not only that, but they let me use their tools to pull off the old Regina freewheel for free!

John E

I really like 13-26 and 14-26 6- or 7-speed freewheels, but they can be pretty hard to find. Fortunately I have a pretty good stash of SunTour cogs, including 26T.

I run 47-38/13-15-17-19-21-23 (Regina America) on Capo #1 , with an SRAM PC58 chain and Campag. 980 rear derailleur, and I can make the chain skate on the cogs if I mis-shift. It's pretty easy to avoid, but disconcerting that it can happen. With Japanese freewheels or cassettes I have rarely had this problem.

Sizzle-Chest

Yeah, this Sante freewheel is 13-14-15-17-19-21-23, which is exactly what I was hoping to find. I also just read that Sante had the same freewheel as Dura-Ace with different cogs.

catonec 

nice pedals. my vote goes for modern, brand new.

dddd

Good score, that's a finely crafted freewheel. I actually find the Uniglide sprockets to be my very favorite for friction shifting, having the ideal balance of grab and lever feedback, i.e. not too touchy or grabby against adjacent larger cogs.
Since it's a 7-speed, I would even consider the shifting benefits of using 9-sp chain on this freewheel, but can't say for certain that the chainrings will like it.

If the new chain jumps under high pedaling force using the new chain, then the affected rear sprocket's teeth can be corrected as needed by grinding off the protruding corners atop the driven side of each tooth. It only takes a 1mm bevel there to correct for excessive wear near the base of the teeth, easily done with a 3/8" dia stone wheel chucked in a Dremel tool.

Sizzle-Chest

Well, seems I have traded one problem for another! The new freewheel shifts great but the 14t and 15t cogs skip under load.

Before I touch it with a power tool, I want to be clear what I should be doing. If I understand you correctly, I should put a 1mm bevel on the tooth similar to what I drew in red on the picture?

On a side note, why would this work on a freewheel but not on a modern cassette or would it? Also, please don't mind the dirty, disgusting chain. I tried with a new chain first and then with an old one just to make sure it was the 14t and 15t cogs.

EDIT: I just found a more detailed explanation here:https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...wheel-question
But if you have anything to add to your previous words of wisdom I'm all ears!

zukahn1 

This is typical of a lot of used Unilglides for the 14-15 cogs to be worn out not work quit right. You are doing nothing wrong the cogs are likely worn out they can look just fine and still be toast. Hitting it with a power tool will likely do nothing but if you only go after the 14-15 freewheel cogs you don't have anything too loose. What you need is a nice 6/7 freewheel vintage or new to fix most of your problems.

SJX426 

Sorry, been away from the forum for a period. Can't answer you question without looking at the bike which is at home and I haven't taken a picture of it yet. I have not experienced any skipping. It looked nearly NOS when I purchased it.

BTW: I can't find anything but 6 and 7 spd freewheels! I have too many of the former and maybe the right number of the second. As bad a reputatio as 8spd FW have, I would like to try one. The local coop sells the average FW, not Dura-Ace or campy, for $5 each. Once in a while I find a good part in the bin and get it for the $5 price. My latest was an Arai drum brake for a tandem that typically sells for $100 on the bay! Since coops typically get stuff free, you can negotiate, like Suntour Superbe BB for $25 or Suntour Barcons 3/$20 or Campy SR brake levers for $25 with all hardware and minor scratches.

noglider 

My daughter's bike came with that derailleur. I couldn't get it working right. I never figured out why. As others said, don't replace it yet, but don't be sad if you have to replace it eventually. Anything will do.

CroMo Mike 

I run C&V bikes with the following RD's: Campy Nuovo Record, Super Record, C-Record (1st gen), Mirage, and SunTour Superbe. By now I've found the best shifting and non-skipping characteristics with all of them to come with vintage SunTour Winner Pro freewheels and modern Shimano IG or HG series "6-7-8 speed" chains. I buy the freewheels new or nearly new on e-bay and, if one offends me, I'll clean it first and if it still skips I replace it. Likewise, I never wash a chain, just keep it oiled and replace it when it gets grubby. Life's too short to figure out why cogs skip. The Shimano chain on a good SunTour Winner freewheel really makes the old Campy RD a smoothie.

dddd

For the skipping freewheel sprockets, this picture shows one tooth having been given "the treatment", a very small bevel that is preferably at about 30 degrees to the driven side or "edge" of the tooth rather than at purely a 45 degree angle. The angle is not really that critical, only that the bevel can be very small and yet still effective at preventing the chain's rollers from hitting the sharp corner and "failing to engage" between the teeth (what actually causes the skipping under load).

---------------The "driven side" or edge of the tooth is the side/edge that the chain roller pushes against-------------

Notice in the photo the beveled top-most tooth stamped "ba". This sprocket is not very worn at all btw, but is a sample showing a generous bevel.

BTW, this IS a cassette sprocket, and yes, these too can be saved. I often find mtb's that are ridden mostly in the top gears on the local river bike trail, with tell-tale severe "pocket" wear near the base of the driven side of the smaller sprocket's teeth.
Only when the chain is allowed to stretch severely does this wear extend toward the top of the teeth (which at that point is usually not repairable).

The OP's Sante 7sp freewheel looks very typical and very fixable in my estimation.

I could almost agree with CroMo Mike's "Life's too short to figure out why cogs skip", but finding good freewheels with desirable ratios is becoming less easy as one might conclude from the prices that some of them now fetch (and I am now only rarely finding good road bikes at thrift stores these days). The grinding fix is a quick 5 minutes and they then usually work like new.
The Suntour freewheels I agree are excellent, and I prefer to use 9sp HG or C9 chain with all types of Suntour freewheels for the easiest, most-forgiving shift quality.

Using new chain does not prevent the pocket wear, but if one rotates between 2 or 3 chains every thousand miles or so, then the chains/sprockets stretch/wear together and thus can remain in service together for a very long time, perhaps well upward of 10k smooth miles of riding in average road conditions (around here, it can be longer because of mostly good weather).

These days, I usually don't even remove the freewheel from the complete bike when doing the grinding, as the sprocket fix is most often part of a quick "get 'er on the road" tune-up for evaluation of the bike's riding characteristics or to be flipped to students who leave their bike outside, treat the bike as a disposable entity and have only $150 to spend. I hold the dremel tool parallel to the axle and use a ~3/8" diameter stone wheel, rotating the freewheel backwards to access each tooth of the affected sprocket.
The Dremel grinding dust doesn't seem to have any effect on the drivetrain that I could notice or would worry about myself. Of course one can also take a sprocket off of the freewheel and use a bench grinder, that's what I used to do before I wised up.

As far as the 980 derailer is concerned, I found it to shift very well with standard road gearing. Sure it's made for use with older, stiffer chains, but mine shifted quite good using HG chain.

Sizzle-Chest

A thousand thank yous, dddd! I took apart the freewheel to clean and lubricate it, and I used my bench grinder to bevel the 14t/15t sprockets (perhaps a bit too aggressively). The 14t now engages under the greatest torque I can produce, and the 15t is almost as good but one to two teeth still skip when I hammer on it. It may be too far gone but I could try again or leave well enough alone as it works under normal load. Interestingly, I tried using a newer 9 speed chain but the skipping was much worse. Not sure why? Anyway, I'm now extremely happy with the drivetrain, so thanks all for the advice, especially dddd!