Iride01 

The shoulder looks tempting, but I'd still have to actually be there to be able to weigh the other considerations. Remember I'm not saying you can't ride in the shoulder. I'm just saying that I don't and have not found a place where I would. I only state my position on this because some apparently think that because they only ride in the shoulder that everyone everywhere should do the same.

Here is a nice road with a shoulder up north of me that I have ridden twice in the last 4 years. Both times in the traffic lane. The shoulder was never as clean as the day they took these images.

https://goo.gl/maps/FzvGAJa5gqQDTVJv6

There's several four lane divided roads in my area with glorified sidewalks next to them marked for cycling. Most of the serious cyclist stay in the road as there are too many road intersections and entrance/exits from parking lots that otherwise would require a lot of stopping since most motorist pull right up to the main road and don't leave the sidewalk crossing open.

https://goo.gl/maps/454RUgQH7f66qjCt5

https://goo.gl/maps/hti5JHkmCJ9sDZSj8

And many of us will use the traffic circle too!

https://goo.gl/maps/DsK4do86RiT4AZpD9

I do ride the MUP to the right of this road. The road doesn't go anywhere that I want to go on a bicycle that I can't get to on a less busy route. But others ride on it and I would too if it were the only way to get were I needed to go. And the MUP you see is part of the main 11 mile MUP that runs somewhat parallel to the Natchez Trace Parkway that is the bridge you see above. However the MUP deviates north/south here to cross from one side of the Trace to the other and for creating a path to tie in many of the other neighborhoods so they have access to the main MUP, the Chisha Foka Trail

https://goo.gl/maps/MypoFvhXV44YGAge9

Steve B.

This is puzzling to me. I understand that a cyclist has legal right to use a lane of traffic and I will do so when it's necessary. But I always use a shoulder if there is a safe shoulder to ride on that is relatively free of debris and road damage. My attitude is I am as well a motorist and I like to be polite to other drivers and give them the lane when I can by riding out of the traffic lane and on a shoulder. Seems safer for everyone. And certainly more considerate.

Iride01 

Shoulders just add confusion to me as to who is supposed to do what when situations arise. Intersections, driveways, entrance/exits to parking lots and places where the shoulder disappears. So it's not just the shoulder itself, it's all the situations that one will come across during the miles they travel on their ride.

We can all say that we'd do something that makes sense when we can sit back and think about it. But it's between you and the motorist or other traffic that is about to interact with you. Will you both arrive at the same conclusion about what's going to transpire in the next few moments? And then add the interpretations that other traffic approaching from all directions of various sorts will have to make and get to the correct and same conclusion at the same time.

So staying in the traffic lane seems to make more clear what actions I'll take when I encounter those places.

By far, I have more issues with motorist trying to be nice to me here than I do motorist being aggressive toward me. Just yesterday finishing up my ride just outside my neighborhood I signaled for a left turn into my neighborhood. The on coming car came to an abrupt halt. They had the right of way, but they wanted to be nice. I stopped and remained in the road till they gave up and drove on.

People trying to be nice are probably what is going to get me killed on a bike!

FBinNY 

This is something that varies by state (and, apparently, whim). Here in NYS they'll sometimes use a single white line as a center line on narrow, 2 land roads. (cheaper than painting double yellow?) Typically this will be on smaller rural roads, or on temporary diversionary roads in construction areas. Either way, the meaning is the same --- do not cross.

However, the intent of my post was to draw the distinction between lane dividers, and fog lines. We can reasonably read instructions to not cross solid white lies to reference lane dividers only, since the state wouldn't see a need to instruct drivers not to run off the right side of the road.

Steve B.

Not using a decent and wide shoulder when one is available is just plain stupid. Its asking for a confrontation with a motorist. Most cyclists understand this and motorists as well.

urbanknight

Sorry, but that comment seems very ignorant of what Iride01 was trying to explain. On more than one occasion, I have seen someone go over the hood of a car that was exiting a driveway and not expecting someone to be coming along at 15mph+ on the shoulder. One even argued that he wasn't at fault because the bike should have been in the traffic lane (I have no idea who was officially placed at fault). I think Iride made a very smart comment by saying it would be wise to withhold comments on any section of rode they haven't ridden on personally. Every situation has its own nuances, and every rider has to evaluate the situation and make the best decision they can.

FBinNY 

The problem is who gets to decide whether a shoulder is decent and wide.

I subscribe to the "captain of my ship" theory, and therefore I am the final authority. So, I reserve the right to use my judgement, drawn from experience, to decide how and where to ride, and extend that privilede to everyone else. regardless of what I privately believe.

Steve B.

Has to be the cyclist. We are the only ones that can judge the conditions,

Steve B.

Agree. I think my problem is I don't want to be in a situation where I am holding up traffic by taking the lane when I have a perfectly adequate shoulder, assuming the shoulder is wide enough, free of debris and poor pavement, etc.... I see it as a responsibility to be a good cyclist and be cognizant of the needs of motorists as well. I think the danger in the scenario you describe of a car coming out of driveway is significantly reduced when you don't hug the outside of the shoulder and ride closer to the white line so that a motorist sees you, helped by using a front white blinking light, which in my experience really helps in having drivers see you. And by always being aware of such dangers of cars entering the lane and being prepared to stop.

FBinNY 

Was I not clear?

Steve B.

Completley, I agreed with you.

urbanknight

Absolutely agreed. I try my best to not hinder traffic unless necessary, and I feel that many cyclists don’t try as much (if at all). I also catch myself absent-mindedly not getting out of the way as soon as the opportunity arrives, so I can understand other cyclists simply might not be seeing the opportunity either. It definitely seems to me that when drivers see me consciously trying to get out of their way, they respect my presence more, even when I can’t get out of the way.

JoeyBike

In the event that I feel it necessary to "control" a lane in the city grid, which is never for very long, I COMMUNICATE my concern for the motorst(s) behind me by LOOKING LIKE I'm in a rush to get the Hell out of their way. I immediately STAND UP on the pedals and make sure my speed is 20+mph. Then the instant I get a break I move over and wave the motorist behind me to pass. All but the most moronic motorist can plainly see there is no room to pass, and they an also see that I am DOING MY BEST to not be there for very long. It is a rare day when someone crowds me or blows a horn.

I realize that most cyclists do not have the capability to crank out 20mph for a block or two. But we all have the capability to make it LOOK like we are doing our best to slow things down for as short a period as possible. Unless you're on a recumbent or an Electra Townie, in which case you just get used to crowding, close passes, horn blowing, and right hooks I guess.

Paul Barnard

That's a great shoulder. I see no reason whatsoever to ride in the lane there.

Paul Barnard

I'd use the shoulder or sidepath shown in all three to those street views. I'd do so with the knowledge that motorists would likely not process me as part of the traffic picture. Left turners, right turners and those crossing the shoulder or side path are likely to cut in front of me. I can mitigate that. Other than efforts to make myself visible, rear strikes are very difficult to mitigate.

Iride01 

Really?

Seems you are assuming most motorist are confrontational when they see a cyclist in the traffic lane. Personally I think that is very rare. At least it is around here.

Iride01 

Realize that those side paths only go a short distance. Maybe a 1/4 mile and the other a 1/2 mile to a mile depending on where your route takes you. And you'll stop many more times while using them than you will in the road. For a ride of 30 miles with few stops, I'd be hard pressed no matter how busy both of those roads were to want to endure the additional stopping required or having to slow down for pedestrians.

And the 30 mile route I was talking about is on two lane country roads and highways with no shoulder. It's a very pleasant ride overall. The views I showed you are just a choice of segments that I can take from that route to get home.

But some do use them. However they aren't out but for a very short and slow ride. And if they are going anywhere, they can't stay on them long without having to get in the road.

If you wish to use them I'm okay with that. I'll wait for you at the other end! And this is a very reasonable viewpoint because you take into account the things that keep me in the road. You just wish to go about it the other way...

Paul Barnard

He makes a point that is worth discussing. Earlier in this thread I posted a pic of a divided 4 lane with a shoulder/parking lane. During afternoon rush hour, there can be a good bit of traffic on that road, and a good number of vehicles parked on the shoulder. That road serves as a conduit for cyclists to ride to MUP on Lake Pontchartrain.

I go to a dog park that is at the terminus of that road at the MUP. The people at the dog park know that I ride bicycles. One of them approached me one day. "Hey Paul, you ride bikes, can you tell me why bicyclists ride in the lane instead of off on the shoulder on Bonnabel?"

I told him that I don't know why, but that I could offer some insight into why they might. I told him that it can be a bit of a PITA, and in some ways unsafe, to continually move into and out of the parking lane. I could tell that he wasn't getting it, so I offered him a question. "You expect them to move over into the parking lane when they can for your benefit right? When they have to move out of the parking lane and into the road, and you'll have to slow down when they move into the road in front of you, is that a d#@k move?"

He said that they should wait rather than cut him off. I then asked him if he could see why they might just stay in the lane to begin with. His line of thinking is not at all uncommon. Cyclists are often damned if we do and damned if we don't. We simply cannot ride with motorist appeasement having a higher priority than safety. What is safe for one rider may make another uncomfortable. We get to make that call for ourselves. Motorists who don't ride simply don't understand the decisions we make. Now with that said, I absolutely do ride with a cooperative spirit. I don't mind suffering some inconvenience in the interest of overall traffic flow. I have met cyclists who stubbornly avoid shoulders, MUPs and/or bike lanes, even when they are good ones. It is their RIGHT after all.

livedarklions

You don't have to assume most are confrontational, just a significant number. I have had arguments with drivers regarding this where I live and have had someone deliberately speed up to try to force me out of the lane when I was turning left.

Iride01 

It is rare here in my area. At least for me it is.

The closest I had to a confrontation was a guy from Texas that stopped ahead of me real angry on the Natchez Trace. However I'd shot him the bird for buzzing me too close and leaning on his horn. So perhaps it wasn't as much him being confrontational as it was me for not just ignoring him as he went by.

There isn't a shoulder on the Natchez Trace and there are signs that say that cyclist may use the full lane.

UniChris

Recognizing the distinction between exercising ideal strategy and riding in a legal manner is indeed complicated.

But ideally, if one is unaccompanied by faster motor traffic, it actually is best to approach intersections in a visible position out in the traffic lane. Failure to do so can hardly be categorized as negligence, but the reality is that it's not the most informed survival strategy.

In contrast if you are being paralleled by a car or about to be overtaken by one, then you don't want to move out - doing so doesn't offer benefit anyway, because the driver tempted to enter will see that car even if they do not see you.

Riding with disregard for others one is not legally obligated to yield to might be legal, but it is not strategic.

A cyclist strongly benefits from baseline hyper-awareness of everyone around, and adapting lane position to that instantaneous reality.

I love my mirror: I see a possible geometry of concern ahead, I check behind, and I make a strategic decision.

Next to none of this is obligated in law, but it's still defensive strategy.

livedarklions

​​​I have ridden in a lot of different places in the US, and the hostility levels vary a lot from region to region and sometimes from town to town. NH is definitely the most hostile state I've ridden in. It's a small minority of drivers, but they are quite nasty.

JoeyBike

Might be from Quebec. That place gets my vote.

livedarklions

I'm not terribly surprised--people in that place seem to like a fight.

Never ridden there, but I did break up an argument between a ticket person and a customer in the Montreal Metro in the late 1980s. My then-wife and I were in line to get tickets to ride the train and in those days, you had to buy them from a human being in a glass booth. The woman ahead of us had begrudgingly paid for a ticket when she was asserting she had already paid once. For some reason, the system then was that the seller gave you a paper ticket you had to put into a fare box and then the ticket taker would unlock the turnstile. For reasons I couldn't quite get, the woman in line was refusing to put the ticket in the fare box, leaving it under the window of the booth, and the ticket taker was refusing to unlock the turnstile until she put the ticket in the fare box. I listened to this fascinating Francophone vs. Anglophone debate for about a minute during which we could not buy tickets to enter, all the meantime listening to trains down in the tunnel departing without us. Finally, I just reached around the woman, picked up the ticket, and dumped it in the fare box, then announced two tickets please. They both looked at me in shock, and then I swear they both looked deflated because I took away their argument. Neither of them said a word to me, but we finally got through the turnstile.

Mtracer

As for the whole ride in the shoulder or not thing, I find it is situational. Most of my miles are on rural highways with an okay shoulder. I ride in the shoulder on that. In city riding, I'll use a shoulder or bike lane but I stay very alert to traffic that could pull out from the side. The cars that might pull out across the shoulder at the last moment because they don't see me. When I see those cars, I pull full out into the traffic lane so I'm positioned where they are looking. Obviously, I make sure it's safe to do that.

I almost always pull into the traffic lane at intersections regardless of there being a bike lane or wide shoulder.