Atlas Shrugged

I find it interesting that your premise is extremely insular and without any outside or contrarian input. At what point is a fairly generic skill which can be learned by anyone with a good mechanical aptitude be attributed such deep cultural meaning. You come to this forum yet don’t go to the frame-builders section and ask them about building frames? Yet many of their output is as high quality and much more detailed that the traditional brands. The big difference is those home built frames and self taught frame builders are not fast enough to make the process profitable. Another question is what time frame of bicycle development are you talking about. A vast majority of the feedback you are receiving and seem to be focused on is a small fairly stagnant period from 1960’s to late 1980’s. How can you defend the premise that the skill to assemble a standard lugged metal frame is any different that a hand laid up carbon lightweight? There are no shortage of contract frame builders at present in every region of the developed world ( because it is a luxury not due to skill or technology) as well there are hundreds of thousands of certified welders, machinists and other metal workers who could easily produce a bicycle if required on order.

Kilroy1988 

Atlas Shrugged I assume you were posting before I wrote my post previous to yours. It may clear up some of the confusion you're seeing. The idea of preserving cultural traditions is insular if that's how someone wishes to approach the situation. I'm not interested in maintaining steel bicycle frame building for the sake of steel bicycle frames - I'm interested in maintaining the traditions that are still being upheld by a lineage of craftsmen that dates back to the mid-late-20th century. That is the tradition. Frame building in and of itself is not. My apologies for not making this more clear, but this is a conversation and I am learning a lot about how I need to address the situation as this very helpful discussion unfolds. I appreciate your input.

-Gregory

Fredo76

Midwestern white guy or not, there certainly is a cycling culture within our greater 'culture', such as it is. You might even call the cycling culture a counter-culture. Like hippies, they were right all along!

Atlas Shrugged

To hone my point it more effectively is I dispute the assignment of great skill onto traditional lugged frame building. The skill is very basic when it comes to metal craft, well established and extremely similar across the practice, wether homemade or batch produced as was done by the halo brands people fawn over. Lugged frame building requires very limited equipment easily obtained. I am not sure what you are looking to maintain as there is no shortage currently of frame builders, processes are clearly documented and easily reproduced by no shortage of individuals.

There are numerous courses available to teach complete neophytes how to build a frame in a few weeks. YouTube has tutorials and no shortage of dedicated suppliers.
https://www.framebuilding.com/
https://framebuildersupply.com/
https://www.bikefabsupply.com/
https://cycle-frames.com/

jamesdak 

Tell you what, watch your Youtube videos, and build me up a frame to match up to either of my David Kirk built frames and I'll concede you are correct. Until then I'll stick to my belief that there most certainly is a high degree of skill and craftsmanship in building a quality frame.

Atlas Shrugged

There is no question that to produce something so detailed and for a reasonable cost is amazing and takes incredible skill. You are making my point though the art is not dying but rather evolving to an even higher expression of talent. I am a certified welder and tool & die maker it’s the creative eye, efficiency and patience which is on display beautifully with your bike which I don’t possess. All that said the traditional lugged performance bikes produced by the popular names back in the 70’s can easily be made today by whatever quantities the market can support.

Trakhak

That David Kirk frame is gorgeous.

That said, I'm remembering the time visited Franklin Frames, in Ohio, in the mid-1980s, when the owner of the shop where I worked wanted to go check out his work, thinking to sell some through the shop.

I noticed a number of what looked like dental tools, tiny files and such, and asked about them. The owner of the frame shop said that he uses those occasionally and that customers like looking at them.

"But this is what I use most of the time," he said, pulling a big disc sander out. He told us that he'd spent years working in an auto body repair shop and could use tools like that sander to shape a lug perfectly in next to no time. And the frames he had in the shop were impeccable at that.

Cultural tradition? Visit New Haven, which has the reputation of being home to the best pizzerias in the country. A pertinent story from Yankee Magazine, posted on the wall of Sally's Apizza, where I spent my hour and a half of waiting in line for a table reading it, page by page:

The interviewer, having learned that Salvatore (Sally) D'Amato, who had opened the restaurant at the end of the 1930s, was in his mid-'70s and that his two sons (38 and 40) had been working at the ovens since they were kids, asked when he was planning to retire.

Sally said, "Well, the older boy is starting to get a feel for when to take the pie out of the oven . . . ."

iab

First,, I don't think the OP arrived with an answer but with a potential hypothesis about culture and frame building. From this inquiry, I certainly think, albeit beyond just frame building, that in France, randonneuring has had a cultural impact from Velocio to Alex Singer and other current French builders.

It has nothing to do with with skill, metal craft, home made or by halo brands. They are the ones who carry out a vital part of the culture, be they are not the end all be all as you state. Otherwise, straw weaving in Belarus would not be on their list.

iab

On a side note, as a mediocre artist making sculpture and an above average artisan making furniture, I fully support the like-minded when I am able. But also if I gave a nickel to every deserving one, I'd be broke and I have to be select. Not all of us have Gwyneth Paltrow money. I will say though I really don't give too hoots about the broader cultural impact, I just want to support the individual.

chain_whipped

No disrespect to the OP but the first paragraph is a mouthful of something,,,, I guess.... importance degree, to never forget how man and his means to make a self powered mobility machine, whatever.

If you're trying to marry all your interest, suggest to actually make a bike yourself. You can get some amazing insight from many highly and longtime custom makers, get their story etc. though you need to actually taste the oil and sprinkle metal shavings on your sizzling steak. You want social and cultural insight, history and more reflective to your steel tube and lug joinery? Take a few classes with Doug Fattic.

Where's this importance of some lost art on making these bikey artifacts? Call JP Weigle and listen to his story and start at Witcomb London. Some old janky drill press, find some files, saws, make your own means or tools to get the task done. Craig Calfee boat life and self taught with the resin and cloth. Now he's into bamboo frames or kits for the DIY folks. Funny because there were bamboo bikes in the later 1800's. Tom Ritchey self taught high school mass producing hand made frames. Lol
Doing repetition sectional production in a shed. Fast learner. Don't need no stinkn' degree either. Learned fast too about steering clear from banksters loan shark society. That's a big part of the topic. Go study that. The labor of love is a hard knock of a way. Talk to Ben Serrotta.

Its always evolving. Yesterdays carbon fellows would be lost with today's technology and techniques. Its now more akin to fine seamstress dressmaking using highly evolved computer sciences skill set w/ software. I'm ever more amazed what those brilliant minds can do today.

There's even secret sauce welding today but didn't back then to perfectly repair those broken classic Campagnolo dropouts.

Enough from me. Best endeavors to you-

obrentharris 

I'm enjoying this thread a great deal.
Could you spell for me the nature of these" traditions that are still being upheld" if they are not the traditions of the frame-building craft itself? Is the passing down of the craft from one framebuilder to another the essence of what you are getting at, or is it more than that?

The four broad commonalities among the framebuilders I have known are the interaction with the customer, the economics, the design of the frame, and the technical work of building the frame. Within each of those four commonalities there is variety as diverse as the framebuilders themselves.

By way of example I will outline the way the framebuilder I know best, an old friend of mine, does things and I will compare that with another builder of my acquaintance. My friend is a part of a large community of riders and racers, many of them half his age. I have spent many days in his shop. Not a day passes that several of these folks don't drop in to ask advice, talk about the upcoming race, inquire after a repair or a new frame, or just visit for a little while. He races cyclocross, sponsors a cyclocross race team, and helps promote a couple of races a year. He builds a few special lugged frames a year but most of his frames, about 100 per year, are TIG welded, both in aluminum and steel. Many of these frames are raced on the road, in gravel races, in cross-country MTB, on the track, and especially in cyclocross. By hand-built frame standards they are affordable. Every frame is custom.

Compare my friend to another builder I knew who built beautifully crafted custom frames with immaculately sculpted lugs, a few every year. These frames were not cheap. He dabbled in titanium and carbon fiber, produced a couple of beautiful bikes out of this combination of materials, but never made them commercially. For a while he made a line of stock road bikes. For a while he made some custom fillet brazed touring bikes. For a while he had touring frames made to his specifications overseas, a move which he regretted. I'm not privy to his finances but it appeared to me that he made more money from tires, racks, and other components and accessories that he designed than from bike frames. I was very fond of him but I knew not to wear out my welcome. He worked mostly alone and resented intrusions by " people who just want to waste my time." He had a reputation as a curmudgeon.

Two builders with very different clientele, very different economic models and very different construction techniques. These two were good friends, even built a handful of bikes together. They obviously felt they had a lot in common. Perhaps that is your job, to more clearly describe those commonalities that are large enough to be described as a tradition or even a culture.

There is more than a thesis worth of work in extending that study back in time and across the oceans. It is my suspicion that the broader culture of 1980s Japan or 1940s Italy had a much larger influence on the style of framebuilding in those places than did any tradition or culture internal to the framebuilding community, but I am no historian.

Brent

alexihnen 

This is teetering on becoming a Twitter thread. It appears that an academic definition of cultural heritage may be a poor fit for a vintage bike forum. It’s a fascinating topic if one doesn’t dismiss the premise out of hand.

alexihnen 

Sorry if this is a tangent, but I recall reading that the Silca brand was an Italian Heritage Company (or something like that) and it’s sale to an owner in the US had to be approved by the Italian government. It was a multi-year process if I remember correctly and was focused on ensuring that Silca was sold at the proper market price.

chain_whipped

No denying the passion and soul Italians are good for, might suggest reaching out to Renzo Formigli. Middle aged but he mentions while in his early 20's, Cino Cinelli took him under his wing and taught his version of traditional frame building. Formigli claims to maintain a soul of this in custom steel lugged, fillet brazed and....... custom carbone feeber. I suppose he's expressing continuity of a legend in the way he was taught.

So what is this intangible cultural heritage? Got me. The soul of ones labor in it? Who's the god of frame building rules? Tooling of many type are required. Theoretically nothing is truly made by hand.

Some years ago I read Serrotta's blog about a comeback after a dark period, whatever. But Renzo Formigli surprised Serrotta by personally making him a bike and shipped to his door. Ben stated something along the line as the spark re-lighting the mojo. Good enough to me.

Fredo76

I suspect that a large portion of the intangible cultural heritage the OP wishes to document will lie in the tradition of apprenticeship, especially in Britain, but for the larger shops, here, too.

Another tradition here would be that of self-taught individual enterprise, not specific to bicycles necessarily, but a characteristic intangible cultural heritage here nevertheless, I'd say.

But, I may just be blathering now.

georges1

Interesting ,I am more into late 80's-early 00's steel frames. I own three road bikes with lugged steel frames,two filet brazed lugged steel frames and one filet brazed aluminiumium frame. Basso, Vetta, Somec, Daccordi, Tomasinni and De Rosa are producing quality frames entirely made in Italy.As for pre 90's made roadbike frames, unless it is Reynolds 753, Reynolds 653,Reynolds 531c, Columbus EL OS, Columbus Max, Columbus Overmax and Excell tubing,I see no point for me to buy a mid range frame with Columbus SLX, SL and SP or standard Reynolds 501 or 525 tubing.The 3Rensho and Merz Allez Specializeds are definitely classics in their own right,same as the Merckx MXLeader and Merckx Corsa Strada. If you can afford to buy a nice older frame then do it, you won't regret it. You will buy something that has a soul and has true mark of craftsmanship.

Jeff Neese

So it's your position that these old-school framebuilders (who could be from any culture living anywhere in the world), and the customers that support them, form a unique culture. Framebuildiing is a highly specific craft and art form, and those that purchase those hand-built frames, together have certain norms and shared experiences associated with those transactions. They somehow form a "community" of framebuilders and their customers, and that is the cultural heritage at stake. Am I understanding that right?

A comparison might be artists, gallery owners, and art gallery customers. They have a relationship and all share a love of art, and even socialize together and gather together for fundraising events or gallery openings. And since that's been going on for ages, you would call that a "cultural heritage", the social interactions and experiences of these players?

In the case of framebuilding, the market will determine how many framebuilders there are in the world and how many people participate in this "culture". As you have read, there is a strong case to be made for vintage steel frames and there are plenty of those around, many of them of VERY high quality. Unless someone has extreme body measurements there is little reason to buy a custom frame, so the customers of these framebuilders are always going to be limited. Framebuilding will never go away completely.

For what it's worth, I just noticed that Rivendell's custom frame program has been suspended. Matt Assenmacher here in Michigan also stopped making frames this year.

nlerner

I wonder if the quality of the product is a key aspect of these cultural heritage artifacts. I’d think more important are the culturally sustaining practices themselves, not what’s necessarily produced. And, again, I don’t see framebuilding as qualifying except on a micro (or nano?) cultural level.

repechage

As a cultural influence, 1899-1900 was more significant for bicycles in the USA

Steel Charlie

Mr Kilroy, I hate to seem to be a buzz kill but I think your proposal/goal is beyond nebulous and more than unlikely to be realized.

iab

Usually, when a large project is in its beginning, words of encouragement are the norm. You know, stuff like, good luck, and such. Constructive criticism is also welcome. How might Mr. Kilroy find success, or avoid pitfalls, etc.

But you did neither. I do have a question. What experience can you share that you had with a UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage project that gives some authority to your comments?

RustyJames 

I have a history degree that I use 0.0% but I think I am getting the flavor of what is being proposed.

If’n I was going to write a masters thesis involving the craft and culture of steel bicycles I would start with the craft of building and narrow it down to 3 builders. If I was keeping it US focused I would pick a builder that is at least 2nd generation (Waterford?), 1 that has been doing it for at least 40 years and one that has started recently. Luckily, I live in city with a vibrant frame building scene so finding people with a lot of skill/knowledge would be easy-ish.

The cultural part would be far too broad for a thesis IMHO unless, for example, you focused on groups associated with a builder. FB would be the obvious go-to since there are many such niche groups.

Best of luck Gregory. My senior thesis (bachelor) was a grind and I was spent at the end but if you want to know about revival of traditional Hawaiian culture under King David Kalakaua, I’m your guy!

squirtdad

Probably Dave Kirk, who built many of the custom Serrrotas.
what people don't always understand, is that design (even subtle) and tubing have kept improving

here is an interesting read that covers that subject as part of the overall read 753 vs. 953 | Kirk Frameworks

smd4

What’s the difference between “preserving” and “safeguarding?” Between “vintage” and “classic?”

squirtdad

Here are some thoughts of areas to look at

One area to look at may be the genealogy of the tradition of building steel frames using brazed lugs and fillet brazing who learned from who and passed the knowledge and how the build morphed over time and with available materials

Another is to compare methods. I see pictures of Richard Sach using pinned lugs, Dave Kirk uses a Jig and lugs or fillets, Bilenky does tig welding, lugs, fillet (and titanium)

Another interesting angle is adoptions of technology, disc brakes and electronic shifting (interesting to me is that Dave Kirk despite being an early disc adopter, reall like rim brakes as the fork has to be built much heavier for disk, but als like the 1x11 Sram wireless build)

I appreciate my vintage bikes and will keep them, but I also recently did a steel custom with Dave Kirk (big surprise there ) and if I had to have one bike that was it.