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when did recessing brake bolts become a thing? and more...

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when did recessing brake bolts become a thing? and more...

Old 11-29-23, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Robvolz
when did top tube cable guides begin?
Someone might know off the bat, but flicking through catalogs on bulgie 's site, the earliest I can find is a 1974 Raleigh Competition, but they were more cable stops than cable guides: https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalo...titionMkII.jpg

Edit: scratch that, looks like Carlton 1970 catalog has top tube cable stops: https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/Carlton70/05.JPG

Last edited by P!N20; 11-29-23 at 03:40 AM.
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Old 11-29-23, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by P!N20
Velobase lists the 1052 Super Record as the first Campy FD for braze-on tab in 1979...although the model was available through to 1987, so not sure when the braze-on was introduced: https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.a...m=113&AbsPos=6

Velobase lists the Shimano EA-200 Dura-Ace EX FD ...and the FD-7210 Dura-Ace EX ... both introduced in 1978.
The Huret Rival braze-on is so undeniably stamped-steel nasty that it must be on the early side of the Sachs takeover, if not before (1980).
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Old 11-29-23, 08:41 AM
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Ion.

Originally Posted by Andy_K
This sounded so wrong that I had to go out to the garage to double check, but my 1973 Raleigh Professional has recessed brakes front and rear.





my hunch, remove the front caliper and there will be no chrome in the bore, remove the rear and the 8mm hole will be through bored from the back side forward. No step down to 6mm.
Even the SB unit was not building recessed brake attachment for years.
does look reasonably clean in execution.
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Old 11-29-23, 09:08 AM
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Doug Fattic , 11-28-23 03:24 PM
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I remember seeing a rear recessed brake attaching bolt on a brake bridge for the 1st time in August of 1976 on a Mario Confente frame. I had a cousin that owned Raincross Cyclery in Riverside, CA and he brought some pro rider's (I forget who he was) Confent to me to see if I could do the same thing on frames I made.

Doug -
Are you referring to Darrell Hand?
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Old 11-29-23, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by P!N20
Someone might know off the bat, but flicking through catalogs on bulgie 's site, the earliest I can find is a 1974 Raleigh Competition, but they were more cable stops than cable guides: https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalo...titionMkII.jpg

Edit: scratch that, looks like Carlton 1970 catalog has top tube cable stops: https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/Carlton70/05.JPG
‘Lejeune was employing stops and a guide for a long time, earliest I saw was late 1960’s.
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Old 11-29-23, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
my hunch, remove the front caliper and there will be no chrome in the bore, remove the rear and the 8mm hole will be through bored from the back side forward. No step down to 6mm.
Even the SB unit was not building recessed brake attachment for years.
does look reasonably clean in execution.
You're probably right, of course. When I installed these brakes one of the fittings was very snug. I didn't think about it at the time. I did find another thread here where someone mentioned having recessed brakes on a '73 Raleigh Pro. Obviously it could be a coincidence. Heck, this could even be the same bike. What I didn't find was any evidence of a brake that existed that early that could have been used with a recessed mount. The fat rear brake bridge certainly seems like it would lend itself to drilling.
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Old 11-29-23, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
This sounded so wrong that I had to go out to the garage to double check, but my 1973 Raleigh Professional has recessed brakes front and rear.




That's not a recessed setup on the front, that was common when the brakes were "all" coming with a recessed center bolt, so opening the crown hole was an easy compatibility fix. I have converted them back with a precisely sized (length/diameter) sleeve to install period correct (as in nutted) brakes. I have also done that on rear brake bridges by machining a precise shouldered insert that looks like a washer once installed.
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Old 11-29-23, 11:09 AM
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I have this "Confente" braze on front derailleur. The cage has 4 holes, first offered in 1978. Plus he died in 1979, so this has to have been before then. The main body is investment cast in steel, I assume by Microfusion, and chrome plated. It's mounted onto the seat tube with 3 water bottle braze on fittings. There was at least one Confente frame that this went on, but I don't know where it ended up. This is the only one of these front derailleurs I have ever seen. This design allows a range of adjustment along the axis of the seat tube only, so one can change the large chainring size. Very little adjustment for changing the cage angle in relation to the chain.

These two shots are of the front derailleur mount on my 1974 Alex Singer. The Jubilee front derailleur has had the front clamp removed, and braze on fittings added on the seat tube. There is no front derailleur position adjustment possible. The French "constructeur" frame builders had braze on front derailleurs of their own creation in the 1930's, plus many other braze on frame fittings.


T
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Old 11-29-23, 11:26 AM
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First time I have seen this Singer braze on attachment from the non drive side. Answers my question. I have a front mech and just did not grasp the hidden solution.

the Confente front mech I think was a part designed by others and then branded for him. Pretty sure I saw an eBay.it listing for an unbranded version, but not enough interest to save and reference. The design just does not proclaim an authorship by him to my eye. But his name is on it.

we will never know, but for the restart he was planning in SD County in 1979, I would of anticipate there would have been some updates, if anything to distance himself from the model names Medici had matched to.
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Old 11-29-23, 12:35 PM
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It's not a great picture but here's the 1960 Urago with the front derailleur braze
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Old 11-29-23, 12:39 PM
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Braze-on front derailleur's 1930's ~ French.
Braze-on shifters 1930's ~ French.
Internal brake cable routing 1940's and possibly earlier~ Italy.

Last edited by chain_whipped; 11-29-23 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 11-29-23, 01:41 PM
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I have 2 1980 Mclean bikes, the racing model has recessed brake mounts, the "perfect pleasure" has nutted.
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Old 11-29-23, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Robvolz
It's helpful to know certain things when trying to date a bike.

Like:
what year did bolt on front derailleurs begin?
when did top tube cable guides begin?
When did braze-on shift bosses begin?
When did cables go from on-top the BB to below?
and
when did recessed bolts for brakes begin??

Thanks
Robert
Most of those around the 80ies, or 50 years before that by some french constructeur if you do enough research
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Old 11-29-23, 04:43 PM
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For the categories mentioned in the original post, I think three broad trends cover most of it. It started earlier, but was in full swing in the immediate post war period….that being the propensity for the French constructeurs to provide a fitting and bolt, spring fit, whatever for anything that could conceivably be mounted on a bike. This included pumps, front derailleurs, centerpull brakes, lights, you name it. To say they had a complete disdain for clamps is understatement that does the entire category disservice. In the 1970 s a movement started in Italy to eliminate clamped on components on racing bikes. It started with water bottle bosses and top tube cable guides and pretty soon it had spread to shift levers, front derailleurs etc. For the higher end Italian racing bikes, the purge was complete by 1980. Interestingly, the French racing bikes of that time were very much influenced by what was going on in Italy and their purge of clamps was only about a year behind. Of course, they still interjected a bit of their own style like the Simplex style front derailleur mount, quill seatposts, etc. The third movement overlapped the Italian Clamp Rebellion. It was the Allen Bolt Revolution. Every conceivable fastener on the bike was a candidate for conversion to an Allen Bolt fitting. This was the movement that swept up the brake mounting bolts in its wake.
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Old 11-29-23, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by martl
Most of those around the 80ies, or 50 years before that by some french constructeur if you do enough research
Agreed. I'm assuming the OP wasn't necessarily looking for 'who was the first' but more 'when was it broadly adopted'. The late 70's/early 80's seems to a fertile period for the items listed, amongst other things.
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Old 11-29-23, 07:53 PM
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Another data point even though consensus seems to have been reached on timing… my 76 Bruce Gordon uses recessed nuts front and rear.

And the reason I posted was that the actual nuts were not Allen head, but star-headed and seemed to have a finer thread pitch than normal. This head is visible in the photo. I discovered this when rebuilding the bike and found that the rear star nut only engaged a very small amount of bolt threading. I finally found a longer nut off the auction site. Kept the old nut.

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Old 11-29-23, 07:56 PM
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I know that frame!

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
I remember seeing a rear recessed brake attaching bolt on a brake bridge for the 1st time in August of 1976 on a Mario Confente frame. I had a cousin that owned Raincross Cyclery in Riverside, CA and he brought some pro rider's (I forget who he was) Confent to me to see if I could do the same thing on frames I made. I'm not where I can check on my build sheets to see when I started putting recessed brake bridges on my own frames. I believe I first did it in 1978. I didn't do any of the machining of the rear brake bridge myself, I bought them from framebuilder suppliers. Silva or a similar company made them in 2 parts, the bridge itself and a barrel shaped cross piece that held the brake bolt. These 2 pieces had to be brazed together. Cinelli offered rear brake bridges for recessed bolts that also came in 2 parts but the 2nd part was a kind of brass washer that pressed into the bridge. A brake's star washer went against this brass piece. These could be a problem because the brass piece could get lost.

Here is a picture of a frame I know I finished in early 1979 but probably started in late 1978. I can see I brazed the Cinelli recessed rear brake bridge on it. Recessing the fork is just a matter of machining it with my vertical mill. These pictures were taken about 2 years ago when this frame was gifted back to me so I could repaint and resell it to use the proceeds for our Ukraine Bicycle Project. This was just at the start of the Russian invasion so the money went to Ukraine for a worthy cause.

Recessed brake bolts would have coincided with Campy's introduction of its short reach brake. They changed from 47/57 to shorter 40/50? I don't remember precisely when this was and what was the new length. What I do remember is that I sometimes had to use the rear brake with its shorter bolt in front and then cut and thread the front brake to match the length of the recessed brake bridge in back.

Obviously when the parts to make these changes first became available and when custom frame builders and production companies started to use them could stretch over several years.


This frame I made with Henry James lugs and a Cinelli fork crown. I can see I recessed the fork crown to accept the front brake bolt.

I put it on my Ukrainian frame fixture to verify its dimensions.

This is after a fresh repaint. The recessed brake bridge is visible in this picture.

Andy's weight weenie Doug Fattic build.
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Old 11-30-23, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by obuckler
Another data point even though consensus seems to have been reached on timing… my 76 Bruce Gordon uses recessed nuts front and rear.

And the reason I posted was that the actual nuts were not Allen head, but star-headed and seemed to have a finer thread pitch than normal. This head is visible in the photo. I discovered this when rebuilding the bike and found that the rear star nut only engaged a very small amount of bolt threading. I finally found a longer nut off the auction site. Kept the old nut.

might be part of a Shimano seat binder assembly. They used a 12 pt head.
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Old 11-30-23, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage
might be part of a Shimano seat binder assembly. They used a 12 pt head.
Good to know. Wonder if they are findable?

Could never figure out why the bolt itself had a finer pitch threading.

I took it in to my LBS and the young mechanic (the old hand was not there) tried to force a new longer nut on. Of course I lost another thread turn with that.

Luckily I found a nut from some seller in a longer length eventually

I was even looking at a longer bolt which probably would have meant converting a front to a rear. More work than i wanted…!
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Old 11-30-23, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by obuckler
Good to know. Wonder if they are findable?

Could never figure out why the bolt itself had a finer pitch threading.

I took it in to my LBS and the young mechanic (the old hand was not there) tried to force a new longer nut on. Of course I lost another thread turn with that.

Luckily I found a nut from some seller in a longer length eventually

I was even looking at a longer bolt which probably would have meant converting a front to a rear. More work than i wanted…!
Merz could make what you need out of stainless or ti. When price is not one of the choose two out of three.
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