"Mirrors, Gears and Fear" ACA columist critical of mirrors
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"Mirrors, Gears and Fear" ACA columist critical of mirrors
Just read thru the May 2006 edition of the Adventure Cyclist. John Shubert, in his "Cyclesense" column, presents a dim view of mirror use and explains many of the limitations of their use.
This was an eye opener to me; all this hype in A&S about mirrors and subtle signals to the rear being THE light and the salvation in traffic doesn't jive with John Shubert.
In the article John quotes Suzie Jones, the former education director of the League of American Bicyclists and John Forester. VERY INTERESTING to read Mr. Foresters criticism of the riders that pretend to rely on a mirror to monitor overtaking traffic...
John Forester, quoted in the article by John Shubert....
"Furthermore, it is dubious that the rearview mirror provides effective protection against collisions by overtaking cars....."
very interesting take on mirrors that is in marked contrast with what the high sophist of A&S force feeds down everybody's internet portal around here.
This was an eye opener to me; all this hype in A&S about mirrors and subtle signals to the rear being THE light and the salvation in traffic doesn't jive with John Shubert.
In the article John quotes Suzie Jones, the former education director of the League of American Bicyclists and John Forester. VERY INTERESTING to read Mr. Foresters criticism of the riders that pretend to rely on a mirror to monitor overtaking traffic...
John Forester, quoted in the article by John Shubert....
"Furthermore, it is dubious that the rearview mirror provides effective protection against collisions by overtaking cars....."
very interesting take on mirrors that is in marked contrast with what the high sophist of A&S force feeds down everybody's internet portal around here.
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Don't suppose there is any way to post the article here. I would like to really see the comments. I know that in the past, Forester had objected to mirrors. I disagree with him.
Personally when commuting I really like my mirror, but I also don't rely only on the mirror. I use it to tell me when to look, then I look, and then I make my move. No point in doing a look back into a pack of approaching vehicles.
Signaling has already occured.
Personally when commuting I really like my mirror, but I also don't rely only on the mirror. I use it to tell me when to look, then I look, and then I make my move. No point in doing a look back into a pack of approaching vehicles.
Signaling has already occured.
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I don't think i can post and paste that without permission, but maybe someone associated with the ACA can link it or something.
Suzie Jones, quoted in the article....
"Those of us who choose not to use mirrors feel that many cyclists become overly concerned with the situation behind them.....there is concern the mirrored cyclists are concentrating in the wrong direction."
Suzie Jones, quoted in the article....
"Those of us who choose not to use mirrors feel that many cyclists become overly concerned with the situation behind them.....there is concern the mirrored cyclists are concentrating in the wrong direction."
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i personally feel naked on tour without a mirror but do not use smoke OR mirrors to orchestrate the POWERWEAVE dance in urban traffic.
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I've become so attached to my mirror, I can't imagine riding without it. It's not that I'm constantly wandering around in the lanes or anything, but it's nice to know when a vehicle is approaching so I can make sure that I'm in an appropriate position to be overtaken.
Adding a mirror to my bag-o-tricks ranks up there for me with clipless pedals as one of the best things I've done to enhance the overall experience.
Adding a mirror to my bag-o-tricks ranks up there for me with clipless pedals as one of the best things I've done to enhance the overall experience.
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Originally Posted by genec
I know that in the past, Forester had objected to mirrors. I disagree with him.
.
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I have had too many close calls with dump trucks , I like to know whats barreling up behind me. I somehow reason that maybe I would have enough time to avoid an impending collision. Probably not , but I feel better with a mirror anyway.
#9
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The best equipment for teaching is usually simpler than that which the user might eventually prefer. I support teaching cyclists on bikes without mirrors in order to reinforce good head-turning habits and reduce students' obsession with overtaking traffic when they are traveling straight.
I've cycled with and without mirrors. I don't use one now for the simple reason that the time and effort that I might save with a mirror is probably less than the time and effort it takes for me to deal with maintaining and protecting mirrors on my bikes or helmet. If I were riding a recumbent or had a stiff neck, the inequality could easily go the other way.
I've cycled with and without mirrors. I don't use one now for the simple reason that the time and effort that I might save with a mirror is probably less than the time and effort it takes for me to deal with maintaining and protecting mirrors on my bikes or helmet. If I were riding a recumbent or had a stiff neck, the inequality could easily go the other way.
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On my upright, my mirror is positioned in such a way that it is very difficult to use. I find that the ride is less stressful if I don't look in it very often. Not because I'm trying not to see anything "scary" back there, but because I think I spend too much time looking in it when I should be looking forward.
I also have found that when I carry a backpack with my computer in it, if I have to turn back to look behind me, the computer is heavy enough that the backpack swings around slightly with enough force that I'm knocked off my straight path. I have practiced and tried to compensate but am unable to keep straight while carrying my computer. Therefore, I believe the mirror is very useful for me when I'm carrying my computer. Otherwise, I think I can do just as well without it when I'm not carrying my computer.
On my recumbents I feel naked without the mirror. It is not as easy to turn to see behind you in a recumbent. It's not impossible, but not easy. The mirror is a crucial piece of recumbent equipment.
Regardless, no matter what bike or what mirror, I can barely see anything back there anyway, either in the mirror or turning and looking back. Just shapes and movement. Maybe I'm blind or something.
I also have found that when I carry a backpack with my computer in it, if I have to turn back to look behind me, the computer is heavy enough that the backpack swings around slightly with enough force that I'm knocked off my straight path. I have practiced and tried to compensate but am unable to keep straight while carrying my computer. Therefore, I believe the mirror is very useful for me when I'm carrying my computer. Otherwise, I think I can do just as well without it when I'm not carrying my computer.
On my recumbents I feel naked without the mirror. It is not as easy to turn to see behind you in a recumbent. It's not impossible, but not easy. The mirror is a crucial piece of recumbent equipment.
Regardless, no matter what bike or what mirror, I can barely see anything back there anyway, either in the mirror or turning and looking back. Just shapes and movement. Maybe I'm blind or something.
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
Suzie Jones, quoted in the article....
"Those of us who choose not to use mirrors feel that many cyclists become overly concerned with the situation behind them.....there is concern the mirrored cyclists are concentrating in the wrong direction."
"Those of us who choose not to use mirrors feel that many cyclists become overly concerned with the situation behind them.....there is concern the mirrored cyclists are concentrating in the wrong direction."
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by chipcom
I can agree that perhaps some cyclists spend too much time looking in the mirror and that some may over-rely on it to monitor the situation behind them, but that is no reason not to have mirrors at all.
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In driver's ed, they teach you to check your mirrors constantly -- every 5 to 10 seconds, depending on circumstances. When making a lane change or other move, you check your mirrors, signal, look over your shoulder, and then make the move. Constantly checking a mirror in the car is not considered obsessional -- its considered safe. If mirrors are important for cars, in which the effects of rear-ending are relatively trivial, then how much more so for bikes? If you glanced over your shoulders every few seconds, you would have a very sore neck and shoulder. Doubly so if you're also using a messenger bag. Mirrors are not a substitute for the glance over the shoulder before making a move, but an important facilitator.
I don't see how somehow can claim to be a "vehicular" cyclist, and then complain if people equip themselves with the same equipment that the other vehicles (cars) have.
People who have trouble using mirrors probably need a better mirror or a better set up. I like the take-a-look, but I did have to figure out how to mount it to my helmet properly. Maintaining and protecting a mirror? Huh? Just put it on, do a 2 second adjustment and go. What's so hard about that? Once again, checking your mirror is one of the first things you're supposed to do when climbing into a driver's seat. For people who don't wear glasses or helmets, there's a whole slew of other mirror choices these days.
I don't see how somehow can claim to be a "vehicular" cyclist, and then complain if people equip themselves with the same equipment that the other vehicles (cars) have.
People who have trouble using mirrors probably need a better mirror or a better set up. I like the take-a-look, but I did have to figure out how to mount it to my helmet properly. Maintaining and protecting a mirror? Huh? Just put it on, do a 2 second adjustment and go. What's so hard about that? Once again, checking your mirror is one of the first things you're supposed to do when climbing into a driver's seat. For people who don't wear glasses or helmets, there's a whole slew of other mirror choices these days.
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
very interesting take on mirrors that is in marked contrast with what the high sophist of A&S force feeds down everybody's internet portal around here.
I don't think a mirror is a great as a lot of people who post here do and I have my reasons why and I sure don't think others opinions I don't agree with are worth getting bothered by.
There all just opinions and different ones are the best things to learn from.
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I'm with Gene. I use mirror to tell me when to look back over shoulder. I use mirror to keep situationaly aware.
Unlike quote from article, after adjustment period mirror has reduced concern from rear. It has build confidence in how well and early most motorists see me. In other cases a glance in the mirror has given me info on an approaching vehicle that results in me moving a bit further left (not right as 'fear from the rear' would cause)
Mirror is also needed if one chooses to ride centerish position in wide lanes and move right when faster traffic approaches.
I do also look in mirror to check out things for interest/curiosity, sometimes I also look into the distance to the side of road where no vehicles will ever be. Or to check if a cyclist I passed decided to ramp up their speed.
I do think/agree for a novice traffic cycler it could inhibit learning safe cycling techniques, such as being able to look over shoulder and ride in straight line, or give the opportunity for putting too much focus on rear.
Al
Unlike quote from article, after adjustment period mirror has reduced concern from rear. It has build confidence in how well and early most motorists see me. In other cases a glance in the mirror has given me info on an approaching vehicle that results in me moving a bit further left (not right as 'fear from the rear' would cause)
Mirror is also needed if one chooses to ride centerish position in wide lanes and move right when faster traffic approaches.
I do also look in mirror to check out things for interest/curiosity, sometimes I also look into the distance to the side of road where no vehicles will ever be. Or to check if a cyclist I passed decided to ramp up their speed.
I do think/agree for a novice traffic cycler it could inhibit learning safe cycling techniques, such as being able to look over shoulder and ride in straight line, or give the opportunity for putting too much focus on rear.
Al
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
I'm with Gene. I use mirror to tell me when to look back over shoulder. I use mirror to keep situationaly aware.
Unlike quote from article, after adjustment period mirror has reduced concern from rear. It has build confidence in how well and early most motorists see me. In other cases a glance in the mirror has given me info on an approaching vehicle that results in me moving a bit further left (not right as 'fear from the rear' would cause)
Mirror is also needed if one chooses to ride centerish position in wide lanes and move right when faster traffic approaches.
I do also look in mirror to check out things for interest/curiosity, sometimes I also look into the distance to the side of road where no vehicles will ever be. Or to check if a cyclist I passed decided to ramp up their speed.
I do think/agree for a novice traffic cycler it could inhibit learning safe cycling techniques, such as being able to look over shoulder and ride in straight line, or give the opportunity for putting too much focus on rear.
Al
Unlike quote from article, after adjustment period mirror has reduced concern from rear. It has build confidence in how well and early most motorists see me. In other cases a glance in the mirror has given me info on an approaching vehicle that results in me moving a bit further left (not right as 'fear from the rear' would cause)
Mirror is also needed if one chooses to ride centerish position in wide lanes and move right when faster traffic approaches.
I do also look in mirror to check out things for interest/curiosity, sometimes I also look into the distance to the side of road where no vehicles will ever be. Or to check if a cyclist I passed decided to ramp up their speed.
I do think/agree for a novice traffic cycler it could inhibit learning safe cycling techniques, such as being able to look over shoulder and ride in straight line, or give the opportunity for putting too much focus on rear.
Al
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Perhaps not also. "Too much time"? Sez who and based on what? By what method have the self appointed experts determined that ANY cyclist spends too much time looking in their mirror?
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by chipcom
I might have one criteria, based on experience...when you are too busy checking out some cute gal you just passed in your mirror to notice a pothole the size of a small country in front of you...it wasn't pretty.
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Mirror is also needed if one chooses to ride centerish position in wide lanes and move right when faster traffic approaches.
Al
John Schubert himself implicates mirrors in anti cyclist views in court cases; "...the assumption that a bicyclist should use a mirror to yield to overtaking traffic plays a key role in undermining cyclists' rights to the road."
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
Actually, Al, that is wholly debatable and one of the points of the article.
John Schubert himself implicates mirrors in anti cyclist views in court cases; "...the assumption that a bicyclist should use a mirror to yield to overtaking traffic plays a key role in undermining cyclists' rights to the road."
John Schubert himself implicates mirrors in anti cyclist views in court cases; "...the assumption that a bicyclist should use a mirror to yield to overtaking traffic plays a key role in undermining cyclists' rights to the road."
Anyway, no it does not. What is debatable is if yielding (moving right) to overtaking traffic when it is safe undermines perception of cyclist right to road. A mirror is only a tool that lets one know there is faster traffic, but does not mean one must move right.
For me the decision to move right is one of courtesy, not one of of rights.
If I didn't have a mirror I would then have three ways for riding a WOL. (note all of these have implications to perception of 'rights to the road')
-stay to the far right at all times
-stay in center and never give the courtesy of moving right
-stay in center and move right when I notice faster or tailgating traffic with shoulder check. This would not allow for as smooth a flow as I would not shoulder check as often and overtaking motorist may think I am merging left with shoulder check and slow for me.
Al
Last edited by noisebeam; 05-25-06 at 11:31 AM.
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In our corporate driver training, we are taught to check MORE frequently than 5 - 10 sec... if you check every 10, you might get a bad grade on your commentary drive (the instructor drives with you and observes... mandatory annually).
I've been riding with a mirror for 28 years, am not going to let some yahoo tell me otherwise. There is never too much information about your environment that can be gathered.
And yes, I also have a bad neck!
I've been riding with a mirror for 28 years, am not going to let some yahoo tell me otherwise. There is never too much information about your environment that can be gathered.
And yes, I also have a bad neck!
Originally Posted by MarkS
In driver's ed, they teach you to check your mirrors constantly -- every 5 to 10 seconds, depending on circumstances. When making a lane change or other move, you check your mirrors, signal, look over your shoulder, and then make the move. Constantly checking a mirror in the car is not considered obsessional -- its considered safe. If mirrors are important for cars, in which the effects of rear-ending are relatively trivial, then how much more so for bikes? If you glanced over your shoulders every few seconds, you would have a very sore neck and shoulder. Doubly so if you're also using a messenger bag. Mirrors are not a substitute for the glance over the shoulder before making a move, but an important facilitator.
I don't see how somehow can claim to be a "vehicular" cyclist, and then complain if people equip themselves with the same equipment that the other vehicles (cars) have.
People who have trouble using mirrors probably need a better mirror or a better set up. I like the take-a-look, but I did have to figure out how to mount it to my helmet properly. Maintaining and protecting a mirror? Huh? Just put it on, do a 2 second adjustment and go. What's so hard about that? Once again, checking your mirror is one of the first things you're supposed to do when climbing into a driver's seat. For people who don't wear glasses or helmets, there's a whole slew of other mirror choices these days.
I don't see how somehow can claim to be a "vehicular" cyclist, and then complain if people equip themselves with the same equipment that the other vehicles (cars) have.
People who have trouble using mirrors probably need a better mirror or a better set up. I like the take-a-look, but I did have to figure out how to mount it to my helmet properly. Maintaining and protecting a mirror? Huh? Just put it on, do a 2 second adjustment and go. What's so hard about that? Once again, checking your mirror is one of the first things you're supposed to do when climbing into a driver's seat. For people who don't wear glasses or helmets, there's a whole slew of other mirror choices these days.
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
Actually, Al, that is wholly debatable and one of the points of the article.
John Schubert himself implicates mirrors in anti cyclist views in court cases; "...the assumption that a bicyclist should use a mirror to yield to overtaking traffic plays a key role in undermining cyclists' rights to the road."
John Schubert himself implicates mirrors in anti cyclist views in court cases; "...the assumption that a bicyclist should use a mirror to yield to overtaking traffic plays a key role in undermining cyclists' rights to the road."
If Mr. Schubert wins many cases on the basis that the cyclist didn't have a mirror and so therefore couldn't know when to yield, the likely outcome is a law requiring mirrors on cycles.
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I used to ride w/ a mirror, and took it off when I switched handlebars - I want it back. It's much easier for me to take a quick glance in a mirror every 10 seconds than to swivel the head every 10 seconds. My situation is aggravated by the fact that I wear glasses. Glasses force you to look w/ a naked eye (not effective) or have a super flexible neck. Wrap style riding glasses w/ Rx inserts help, but do not completely alleviate the problem.
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Originally Posted by MarkS
So, taken to its logical extreme, cyclists should wear blinders so that they are never responsible for knowing what other traffic is doing?
If Mr. Schubert wins many cases on the basis that the cyclist didn't have a mirror and so therefore couldn't know when to yield, the likely outcome is a law requiring mirrors on cycles.
If Mr. Schubert wins many cases on the basis that the cyclist didn't have a mirror and so therefore couldn't know when to yield, the likely outcome is a law requiring mirrors on cycles.
reconstruction." His opinions on legal matters should be considered accordingly.
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Well, gee, I didn't read the article (reference?) - if there are mains points of the article it would be nice if you had sumarized them in your OP.
Anyway, no it does not. What is debatable is if yielding (moving right) to overtaking traffic when it is safe undermines perception of cyclist right to road. A mirror is only a tool that lets one know there is faster traffic, but does not mean one must move right.
For me the decision to move right is one of courtesy, not one of of rights.
If I didn't have a mirror I would then have three ways for riding a WOL. (note all of these have implications to perception of 'rights to the road')
-stay to the far right at all times
-stay in center and never give the courtesy of moving right
-stay in center and move right when I notice faster or tailgating traffic with shoulder check. This would not allow for as smooth a flow as I would not shoulder check as often and overtaking motorist may think I am merging right with shoulder check and slow for me.
Al
Anyway, no it does not. What is debatable is if yielding (moving right) to overtaking traffic when it is safe undermines perception of cyclist right to road. A mirror is only a tool that lets one know there is faster traffic, but does not mean one must move right.
For me the decision to move right is one of courtesy, not one of of rights.
If I didn't have a mirror I would then have three ways for riding a WOL. (note all of these have implications to perception of 'rights to the road')
-stay to the far right at all times
-stay in center and never give the courtesy of moving right
-stay in center and move right when I notice faster or tailgating traffic with shoulder check. This would not allow for as smooth a flow as I would not shoulder check as often and overtaking motorist may think I am merging right with shoulder check and slow for me.
Al
Tears (of joy) in my eyes. I remember just a few months ago (or so it seems) you were just inquiring about mirror use. I remember your complaints about how your backpack blocked the mirror - how did you get around that? Anyway, now you understand and can explain the issues and techniques better than the likes of John Schubert. By the way, I'm trying to contact him about this. I'll let you know...