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How you ride a bike

Old 12-01-21, 03:46 PM
  #26  
Korina
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I've taught a few kids how to ride a bike. I never had to explain to any of them how to turn, and couldn't have if I'd had to. There's got to be some relationship to the skills we need to walk upright that make this instinctive. You definitely don't tell a child how to walk before they start just doing it.
Yep; like using a swing, or knowing the grammatical rules of English.

Here's one for you; dyspraxia. Sadly, not everyone can learn to ride a bike.
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Old 12-01-21, 04:30 PM
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Thinking about it more, I think the OP premise of subconcious counter steering is a total crock. LOL. How would you differentiate just plain weaving along?
Looking at the bike rolling without a rider, you see that the bike is doing it all by itself. So unless you are stiff arming at the time, then you just won't think about what's happening. He is correct that it is very hard to ride a straight line on the road very far. I'm lucky if I can go 5 feet, likely because I'm looking down instead of ahead. TdF guys somehow learn to do it far better. Anyway, 99% of the time I'm dodging stuff on the raod. Waggling is what I do often anyway, like on hills. I've also been doing it more, like tacking into the wind. My speedometer says I'm going faster, but probably the actual travel forward is where it would be just going straight.

Plus just go ride a Flying Pidgeon bike with crooked wheels. Then you will see what it actually takes to steer, naturally or NOT. I did this in Chengdu.

As for self propelling, I have seen a video about a Cesna 152 that was idling too fast when the pilot got out to pull the wheel blocks. The plane TOOK OFF. This was in south central valley of California. So the plane was heading west. The pilot was quickly able to get another pilot/ plane to follow it. It flew over 200 miles and thru 2 low cuts in ridges, at a near constant 1,500 feet. It only came back to earth when it ran out of gas 300 yards off the ocean edge. LOL.

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Old 12-01-21, 04:31 PM
  #28  
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I think Walmart sells a Dyspraxia hybrid.

It’s not you, it’s the bike.

John
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Old 12-01-21, 05:06 PM
  #29  
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Mindless ambling….my favorite kind of ride!
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Old 12-02-21, 05:58 AM
  #30  
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how to riders ride hands-free anyhow? Been riding for 30 years, still whether on the pub bike or not, the bike wobbles as soon as I take the hands off the bars.
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Old 12-02-21, 06:38 AM
  #31  
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I still don't get why this stuff doesn't "prove" that turning a unicycle safely is impossible.
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Old 12-02-21, 06:59 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by CooperJames View Post
how to riders ride hands-free anyhow? Been riding for 30 years, still whether on the pub bike or not, the bike wobbles as soon as I take the hands off the bars.
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Old 12-02-21, 09:31 AM
  #33  
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OK, I think I see now why these conversations always go wrong. There has to be a countershift in weight to adjust the center of gravity to successfully make the turn. That people turn successfully with no hands on bicycles and on unicycles without handlebars demonstrates that the hands are not necessary to initiate this. What is clear is that the handlebars need to be free in both directions for the bike to "right" itself (it would be interesting to try the unidirectional lockout on a "self-propelled" bike and see if it collapses like it does when you fix the front wheel entirely).

My sense when I'm riding is that turns are not initiated with the hands but with my body. I think the no-hands and unicycles demonstrate that that isn't a crazy proposition. Where the broomstick analogy in the video goes wrong is that a broomstick cannot adjust its own center of gravity but the human body can and does it all the time--for example, we can hop around on one foot which is a really remarkable feat of balance and proprioception. We cannot possibly consciously process all the micro-adjustments necessary just to remain in a standing position, so we have even less awareness of all the things we do to accomplish something as complex as turning a bicycle without falling off. . I cannot tell from the videos whether the small apparent turn of the handlebars is actually the riders turning them with their hands or their hands remaining loose enough so the handlebars turn on their own in response to a very brief counter-lean which would probably not be observable on video. If you lock the handlebars, this "automatic" adjustment would be blocked just as well as an intentional turn of the hands.
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Old 12-02-21, 02:04 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I've taught a few kids how to ride a bike. I never had to explain to any of them how to turn, and couldn't have if I'd had to. There's got to be some relationship to the skills we need to walk upright that make this instinctive. You definitely don't tell a child how to walk before they start just doing it.
Yup. I've 2 6 year olds on pedal bikes and a nearly-3 year old who scoots around on his balance bike without a care in the world. I've never "told" them how to steer the bikes, but they can all maneuver around crowded parks, along busy pathways, and zig-zag through obstacles in our backyard.

Over-thinking steering can very easily lead to mistakes, so "keep your eyes where you want to go and the bike will follow" remains the best advice (along with "keep your handlebars straight, your brakes maintained, and your tires pumped up").
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Old 12-02-21, 02:43 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Leinster View Post
Yup. I've 2 6 year olds on pedal bikes and a nearly-3 year old who scoots around on his balance bike without a care in the world. I've never "told" them how to steer the bikes, but they can all maneuver around crowded parks, along busy pathways, and zig-zag through obstacles in our backyard.

Over-thinking steering can very easily lead to mistakes, so "keep your eyes where you want to go and the bike will follow" remains the best advice (along with "keep your handlebars straight, your brakes maintained, and your tires pumped up").

I don't get that, though. I also need to visually scan to the right and left of me to make sure there's nothing coming at me from the sides (crossroads, etc.) and we all had to train ourselves not to follow our eyes when we do that.
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Old 12-02-21, 04:37 PM
  #36  
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With a nod to Mstateglfer and livedarklions, our ability to balance depends on vestibular input, both static and dynamic, from the vestibular system in our ears, proprioceptive inputs (a sense of our body's position and movement) and visual inputs. When these three sources fail to agree we may be unsteady, fall, and/or experience nausea.
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Old 12-03-21, 02:53 AM
  #37  
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All of my best answers are at least "R" rated, which often happens when I am drinking while on the computer.
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Old 12-03-21, 06:30 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
With a nod to Mstateglfer and livedarklions, our ability to balance depends on vestibular input, both static and dynamic, from the vestibular system in our ears, proprioceptive inputs (a sense of our body's position and movement) and visual inputs. When these three sources fail to agree we may be unsteady, fall, and/or experience nausea.

I think that's why the video doesn't really prove much other than if the bike doesn't "behave" the way you're accustomed to, you'll lose balance because it throws off your proprioception. I have no idea if someone could or couldn't learn with practice how to complete the turn under these conditions.
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Old 12-03-21, 08:00 AM
  #39  
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I doubt that a bike with locked steering could turn without losing traction. I would like to have seen them roll that bike down the hill without a rider. It also might be interesting to see if using a front tire that is much narrower than the rear might help turn where they each might have a different turn radius on edge. Looks like someone with excellent balance could learn to ride the locked steering bike in a straight line though.



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Old 12-03-21, 08:42 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by majmt View Post
I doubt that a bike with locked steering could turn without losing traction. I would like to have seen them roll that bike down the hill without a rider. It also might be interesting to see if using a front tire that is much narrower front tire than the rear might help turn where they each might have a different turn radius on edge. Looks like someone with excellent balance could learn to ride the locked steering bike in a straight line though.

https://youtu.be/1JcFhwZ1pg8

https://youtu.be/dlVQKDQK5vQ

I don't think anyone has enough experience with a one-way lockout to know what can and can't be done with such a bike with practice. What your videos demonstrate is that people can train themselves to do feats of balance that might be thought impossible until someone actually does them.. As we know, circus acts are full of such people.

It's interesting watching the two wire performers on very different kinds of wires, using completely different techniques, none of which would be practical at speed on a road or path.
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Old 12-03-21, 02:37 PM
  #41  
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I often like doing the no hands on the bike because sometimes I just need to for whatever reason. It's interesting how when riding with panniers making one of the panniers a lot heavier than the other really messes up the balance and makes it a lot harder to keep balance.

You can also add in other things like throwing a ball in the air, etc to really see how your co ordination can get.

With the first video I notice that I'm always doing small movements whether balance or steering to keep the bike where I want to go. I don't think I've ever just sat there and hoped the bike would stay upright and the same direction. It's exactly the same if you drive a car. You'll always be making tiny corrections to keep going straight. After a while we don't think about it so we don't notice that we're doing it so much. Although like the videos further down, try just going straight on thin line or elevated ground. It's quite challenging to keep it exactly in the same spot.
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Old 12-03-21, 03:19 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by CooperJames View Post
how to riders ride hands-free anyhow? Been riding for 30 years, still whether on the pub bike or not, the bike wobbles as soon as I take the hands off the bars.
I used to do it quite a bit as a kid. I bought a new Trek a few years ago and could not ride it without hands. I assumed it was the bikes geometry but I now have to bikes that are the same frames as what I had in high school. I think I could ride them without hands, but I don't feel comfortable. I think at 57 I have lost the confidence that lets me ride without hands so I think that is a sign to me to not try it any longer.
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Old 12-03-21, 05:48 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by majmt View Post
I doubt that a bike with locked steering could turn without losing traction. I would like to have seen them roll that bike down the hill without a rider. It also might be interesting to see if using a front tire that is much narrower than the rear might help turn where they each might have a different turn radius on edge. Looks like someone with excellent balance could learn to ride the locked steering bike in a straight line though.
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I don't think anyone has enough experience with a one-way lockout to know what can and can't be done with such a bike with practice. What your videos demonstrate is that people can train themselves to do feats of balance that might be thought impossible until someone actually does them.. As we know, circus acts are full of such people.
Nope, it'd go in a straight line.
Ex-pro moto racer, writer, and rider coach Keith Code has a demonstrator at his California Superbike School called the "No BS (Body Steering) Bike", which has a second, fixed set of handlebars. Students are instructed to try to make the bike turn using only the fixed bars: The result is that no amount of throwing your weight, pushing up or down, makes the bike turn (the wheel is still free, it just goes in a straight line)
While his philosophy is the subject of debate in moto circles, the bike proves that you have to have some sort of controlled, purposeful steering input into the handlebars, in order to make the bike turn. On a velo, those inputs are slight to the point of imperceptible, unless you're really focusing on it, but on a heavy moto at medium speeds, it requires a much more deliberate and noticieable action.
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Old 12-03-21, 07:07 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Ironfish653 View Post
Nope, it'd go in a straight line.
Ex-pro moto racer, writer, and rider coach Keith Code has a demonstrator at his California Superbike School called the "No BS (Body Steering) Bike", which has a second, fixed set of handlebars. Students are instructed to try to make the bike turn using only the fixed bars: The result is that no amount of throwing your weight, pushing up or down, makes the bike turn (the wheel is still free, it just goes in a straight line)
While his philosophy is the subject of debate in moto circles, the bike proves that you have to have some sort of controlled, purposeful steering input into the handlebars, in order to make the bike turn. On a velo, those inputs are slight to the point of imperceptible, unless you're really focusing on it, but on a heavy moto at medium speeds, it requires a much more deliberate and noticieable action.

You just illustrated the problem with analogy between moto and velo. Somebody forgot to give this guy the memo about needing inputs into the handlebars:

Those inputs are definitely imperceptible, is he doing it with his breath?
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Old 12-03-21, 07:15 PM
  #45  
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I still find Jobst Brandt’s discussion of gyroscopic forces and balance very helpful.

Here are the comments on riding with no hands:

Those who ride no-hands sense and make use of the small gyroscopic effect of the front wheel to steer. This, together with trail of the steering geometry, stabilizes steering. Without trail, the bicycle would have poor straight -ahead preference and riding no-hands would be difficult. Many bicyclists never master riding no-hands because the gyroscopic forces are too small for them to detect. Hands on the handlebars completely obscure these forces.

For those who ride no-hands, countersteer should be visible and obvious because the bicycle must be leaned away from the preferred lean angle and direction of a curve so that the turn can be initiated. With hands on the bars, although the opposing lean is unnecessary, countersteer is still needed and can be done without counter-leaning.

Here is the full article:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/gyro.html

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Old 12-03-21, 07:36 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Ironfish653 View Post
Nope, it'd go in a straight line.
Ex-pro moto racer, writer, and rider coach Keith Code has a demonstrator at his California Superbike School called the "No BS (Body Steering) Bike", which has a second, fixed set of handlebars. Students are instructed to try to make the bike turn using only the fixed bars: The result is that no amount of throwing your weight, pushing up or down, makes the bike turn (the wheel is still free, it just goes in a straight line)
While his philosophy is the subject of debate in moto circles, the bike proves that you have to have some sort of controlled, purposeful steering input into the handlebars, in order to make the bike turn. On a velo, those inputs are slight to the point of imperceptible, unless you're really focusing on it, but on a heavy moto at medium speeds, it requires a much more deliberate and noticieable action.
Actually, he says it is possible in the very same article:

"Before I go any further I want to address off-road motorcycles. An off-road motorcycle will easily steer by pressing down on the inside peg, and in conjunction with shifting the upper body mass, will go over pretty easily. Still not what I would call good control but it can be done fairly efficiently."
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Old 12-03-21, 09:18 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
You just illustrated the problem with analogy between moto and velo. Somebody forgot to give this guy the memo about needing inputs into the handlebars:

Those inputs are definitely imperceptible, is he doing it with his breath?
Nope. He's doing it with his hips, more or less.
The biggest difference between moto and velo, as I've said, is that center of mass, and the rider's proportion of that mass is very different. On velo, the riders' mass is several times that of the bike, and you're able to affect more control over the bike using weight shifts and counter-shifts to control both the lean of the bike, and the CG of the whole system (bike+rider) without a whole lot of extra movement.
I'm not saying everybody can ride any bicycle with no hands, but it's not an uncommon thing.
It is really, really difficult to make a 500# moto change direction quickly and predictably without input to the bars. It's too heavy, and the CG is too low for just the rider shifting their weight to have the effect it does on a bicycle.
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Old 12-03-21, 09:39 PM
  #48  
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I am involved with bike safety training in our school district, usually 5th graders. One of the techniques we teach is an emergency turn using counter steering to initiate the turn. Right hooks, a car making a right turn in front of a cyclist, are probably one of the most dangerous situations encountered by cyclists.

The move is started by counter steering to the left, leaning right for a right turn, which pushes the front end to the left, followed by steering through a tight right turn. It is amazing how tight of a turn can be accomplished, almost 90 degees, at a relatively high speed.

It is also a good technique to know riding in a pace line. The inclination is to lean away when you get too close to the rear wheel in front of you, especially when overlapping their rear wheel. This pushes the front wheel over in the opposite direction of the lean, right into the back wheel of the other rider. The result is usually going down. Leaning toward the bike will help avoiding hitting it.

Showing off in front of my wife as she was riding behind me taking pictures

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Old 12-03-21, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Actually, he says it is possible in the very same article:

"Before I go any further I want to address off-road motorcycles. An off-road motorcycle will easily steer by pressing down on the inside peg, and in conjunction with shifting the upper body mass, will go over pretty easily. Still not what I would call good control but it can be done fairly efficiently."
Dirt bikes are a whole other animal from street bikes; they're far lighter than anything short of a MotoGP race bike ( 250cc MX are typically well under 250#, compared to around 500# for a 650cc 'middleweight' street bike). They're also taller, with a higher CG, and softer-sprung, longer travel suspension.
On dirt, too, you usually operate at lower speeds than on the street/track, and on loose/soft surfaces, with a lot more wheel spin and side slip than is generally attainable on a street bike; necessitating a different riding style, but also because engines, still different from what you do on a bicycle.
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Old 12-03-21, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ironfish653 View Post
Dirt bikes are a whole other animal from street bikes ...
Yes, and bicycles are a whole other animal than dirt bikes. What's the point of using a street bike as an example for what can or can't be done on a bicycle, when it doesn't even apply to dirt bikes?
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