CEBEP

Jipe are you happy with your current setup using Shimano Ultegra RD-R8000 derailleur considering how low it is while on smallest cog? Compared to Brompton, Birdy with, let’s call it standard derailleur is pretty low to the ground while on smallest cog, I wander how this derailleur is in that respect and if there are any derailleur alternatives you would recommend to consider which can be shorter (higher from the ground)? When I see Birdy pictures I always think how people manage to not yank it out on the rough surface.

jackyharuhiko

Here it is.

Shifter: SRAM Rival eTap AXS wireless (Max 36T)
Cassette: Shimano Ultegra CS-R8100 11-30T
Chain: KMC 1/2” X12/128” x 126 Links

CEBEP

Thanks. Will it work with 11s 9-34t Ethirteen cassette?

I see there are two models available,
RD-RIV1-E-D1 and RD-RIV-E-D1. Which one you chose and why?

Another question is shifter, I see that the inly shifter they have is integrated with brakes on drop bars which will not be the case with me. Which shifter so you use?

CEBEP

I must have mixed the things up. I meant when derailleur is in it’s lowest to the ground position which is when I assume it’s on biggest cog. My idea is to have the shorter derailleur so it’s not too close to the ground in it’s lowest position, if it makes sense.

jackyharuhiko

Let me take a photo of the lowest position later.

Jipe

The Shimano Ultegra RD-R8000 I use is the SGS with a medium cage, its position to the ground is I think similar to the one of the SRAM Etap AXS. For those, there are two types, the older one that was going only up to 32t and the latest one that goes to 36t. There is also now the XPLR type for a cassette to 44t but tis cassette won't work on the Birdy (I think, I haven't tried it).

Yes, the Birdy without mudguard roll on its rear wheel without any easy wheels, but i need mudguards.

CEBEP

Tuanks. Will appreciate of you could also specify the model you have as I see two and the shifter you used. Another stupid question, will 12s derailleur work on 11 speed cassette?

Jipe

The cage of the derailleur is not the closest to the ground on the biggest cog nor on the smallest, it is closest to the ground when the cage is vertical what happen somewhere in the middle of the cassette.

The cage of the RD-R8000SGS is slightly shorter than the cage of the original RD-T610-SGS derailleur mounted by R&M on the Birdy Touring.

No, a 12s derailleur won't work with a 11s cassette and especially not an electronic derailleur like the SRAM Etap AXS.

But SRAM has an excellent 10-36 cassette with very nicely spaced cogs, a 10t smallest cog that provides a good gear inch with the 52t front chainring and Big Apple tires. Actually, the main reason I was interested by the SRAM Etap AXS derailleur was the existence of this cassette and this cassette works only with SRAM 12s Etap AXS derailleur (its the problem of 12s: no compatibility between different manufacturers nor between road and MTB derailleur, cassette and chain from the same manufacturer).

CEBEP

If I’ll go with upgrading hub/cassette I’ll definitely go with your suggestion of SRAM 10-36 as we have lot’s of hills here in Istanbul.

CEBEP

jime to sum things up the setup you have on your R&M Touring is:

XDR body rear hub
Shimano Ultegra RD-R8000 (RD-R8000SGS) derailleur.
SRAM Force Etap AXS 12s and 10-36 cassette

Am I correct?
The only question is which spokes (length) to use.

Jipe

No, that's not possible !

I have:
- XDR body hub (Tune Climbhill CL32 with XDR freewheel, on the Ti Birdy, its a Hope RS4).
- Shimano SL-RS700 11s shifter.
- Shimano RD-R8000SGS.
- E thirtheen XCX+ 11s 9-34 cassette (its unfortunately impossible to use a 12s cassette with 11s derailleur).
- KMC X11SL Gold chain Ti-N long lasting ultralight chain.
- Garbaruk narrow-wide 50t chainring (I managed to mount the original R&M chainring protection on the Garbaruk chainring).

The rim is an Alex Crostini that I kept to have the same front and rear rim. I took Sapim D-light silver spokes and the Tune hub in black also to have the same color as the front wheel spokes and hub.

jackyharuhiko

Shifter: SRAM Rival eTap AXS wireless (Max 36T)
Cassette: Shimano Ultegra CS-R8100 11-30T
Chain: KMC 1/2” X12/128” x 126 Links

CEBEP

Thanks. Could you suggest how setup should look like to be able to use SRAM 10-36 cassette? My preference will definitely be 36t biggest cog for better range for hills.

CEBEP

everything is clear except the Hub

- XDR body hub (Tune Climbhill CL32 with XDR freewheel, on the Ti Birdy, its a Hope RS4).

could you post a link to the hub in this configuration or is it some sort of hub kit?

Thanks

CEBEP

Jipe is this the hub? 12x142mm 32 hole

https://www.bike24.com/p2586632.html

Jipe

For the Birdy you need the version 135mm wide quick release 5mm 32H QR5 XD/XDR 3T black / 119455

For the derailleur, for instance this SRAM upgrade kit that contain the derailleur, the chain and the 10-36t cassette (you need to add a battery and charger not included in the kit) there is the same kit in SRAM Rival and Red.

And this SRAM controller it comes from the MTB range Eagle but all AXS elements are compatible.

jackyharuhiko

This is the controller of my set up:

• EC-AXS-ROCK-A1 AXS ROCKER PADDLE

this is from Eagle AXS.

And, on the lowest gear.

CEBEP

Thanks. This hub in this configuration seem to be available with Starbike only, which might be normal as it’s made in Germany. Do you think there are other hub alternatives that can available, say in US?

My understanding is for the hub to fit it needs to be XDR, 135mm 32 holes and be 5mm quick release?

Considering the price of these components the Alfine 11 hub should already be a cheaper upgrade soliton.

Jipe

Yes, it must be 135mm 32 holes and 5mm quick release. The Hope RS4 centerlock is also a solution, it also exists in 135mm QR4.

The problem is that current new bikes do not use very often 135mm spacing and QR5mm anymore so finding a rear hub in stock in this dimension isn't easy but most shops in Europe can order a hub directly from Tune (its what Starbike does, as you can see most variant of the Tune hub aren't in stock)..

The behavior of the Alfine 11 is very different than the behavior of a derailleur transmission, you cannot change gears while pedaling, its has a lower efficiency and its heavier.

The only internal gear hub that has an efficiency close to a derailleur and allow to change gears while pedaling is the Rohloff.

CEBEP

Thanks Jipe , I get your point regarding Alfine 11 hub. Actually I just talked to the shop owner who had similar opinion of the hub which he has on the road bike. He likes to have dun on the bike and Alfine doesn’t really allow him to. Probably good solution for touring but maybe not the best for street bike.

Regarding rear hub, as I understand it’s the only difficult part to source but the rest like cassette, chain, spokes etc is more easy to find?

Also is there a Shimano hub in 135mm suitable for Birdy?

glye

Just a "few" words about gearing range and other comparison, in case you're unsure. Range from lowest to highest gear, solutions sorted by range:
Alfine 8: 307% range
10-36 cassette: 360% range
9-34 cassette: 378% range
Alfine 11: 409% range
SRAM DualDrive: 576% range in 3x9 standard setup (discontinued)

So you choose what range you need, and then pick a front chainring size (and/or Alfine rear cog) to adjust what your actual lowest/highest gears will be.

These cassette solutions (not the sunrace one) are likely stronger than the Alfines. The cassette hubs are low maintenance, no oil change needed. Cassette shifting is quite easy to adjust. Efficiency is also higher, less energy is wasted. And weight is likely less. On the other hand, with cassettes you'll need to replace parts more often (chains and cassettes). If you go on a long tour, it's best to do it with a new cassette, since these somewhat unusual casssettes will be hard to find in physical bike shops. Some like the e-thirteen can be quite expensive. You can't shift while standing still (except by lifting the wheel and turning the pedals). You can shift while pedaling, but you should reduce the force. Folding is best done with the chain on a medium/small cog (higher gear), a little impractical but no big deal. The derailer is vulnerable when riding, it will easily pick up grass, but is protected when the bike is folded.

With Alfine 11 you have a high initial cost, somewhat difficult shifting adjustment, higher weight, lower efficiency, and the occasional oil change (easy job). Though it's cheaper than the most expensive cassette solutions, and parts replacement will likely be very rare, apart from the chain (which is cheap). Range is good, you can shift gears while standing still, and it doesn't matter what gear you are in when folding. Shifting while pedaling is possible if you slow down the pedals a little and reduce force, or you can briefly stop pedaling. Alfine Di2 may not be possible. The chain tensioner is strong and holds your chain higher up from the ground (when using the minimum chain length, which I recommend also because it helps chain uptake when folding). If an Alfine breaks down during a long tour, the tour is likely over. It will be very hard to get it fixed. This is true for most hubs, but cassette hubs are stronger and less likely to break down (except the some like the sunrace 9t).

I mention the SRAM DualDrive because it gives you a huge gearing range in a cheap and fairly solid solution. You can use a very cheap 11-34 9-speed cassette. With the hub in 2nd gear it is in direct drive, and efficiency is the same as a regular cassette setup. However, it is discontinued by SRAM, so you'd have to search for a 2nd hand or old stock package. (Sturmey Archer still makes a very similar solution, but I can't recommend those as they likely use the same weak cassette hub body as the Sunrace one. I have had an SA cassette hub break in the same way as the sunrace, and it looked exactly the same.)
SRAM DualDrive

I think this is a fair comparison. Be aware, if you read reports about Alfine hubs being damaged: This depends on the torque you put into it, which depends on wheel size. Most bikes have large wheels and relatively small chainrings, which means high torque. The Birdy has small wheels, large chainring, and low torque. This should give any hub / chain / cog / chainring a longer life on a Birdy, than on a large wheel bike.

Spoke lengths: I learned wheel building from this book: https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php
It recommends measuring the rim and hub first (don't trust data from the manufacturer). Then calculate the spoke lengths. So if you buy everything online you'll need to buy hub and rim first, then measure, then buy spokes. There are different ways to measure, which will give different results. So make sure you measure in the same way as is recommended by the spoke length calculator you use.

best regards

CEBEP

Thanks glye
I don’t plan long distance touring, at least now and plan to use it in the city for short/fast ride. I personally lean more towards cassette setup as you’ve mentioned it’s more efficient and lighters than the hub. I may invest into the good hub as recommended by Jipe and then add cassette and maybe derailleur. As long as the hub will hold I don’t think changing cassette every once in a while will be in issue for me.

Jipe

No, no Shimano XDR hub since XD/XDR was invented by SRAM.

The Alfine 11 hub was improved by Shimano a couple of years ago to make it stronger and compatible with Shimano Steps and other pedal assist motor (it wasn't before) which opens a huge market for it (previously, only Nexus and Alfine 8 were usable for ebike) but strange enough, there are still few ebike with Alfine 11 while there are more with the much more expensive Rohloff or the similarly priced Enviolo hub (even if this one has a very bad efficiency and is much heavier).

Also, nor Riese & Müller nor Pacific Cycles propose a Birdy with Alfine 11 while they have one with Nexus 8 and Rohloff, again I don't know why because from the specifications and price, the Alfine 11 should be a good alternative (better also than the Pacific Cycles 3x8s with Sturmey Archer hub) ?

The dual drive doesn't exist anymore and even spare parts aren't available anymore. There is similar system from Sturmey Archer (Sunrace owned) mounted by Pacific Cycles but its heavy and has a lower efficiency too.

One last point, besides the potential reliability issues of the Sunrace hub, the solution of R&M work very well and gives a good gear inch and range. I rode my Birdy Touring during a little more than one year with it mainly loaded without any problem and doing many km with it, besides normal wearing, there was no mandatory need to change it.

I also cannot imagine that R&M would keep the Sunrace solution if there were a lot of failure with it.

Glye, when you had this problem with the hub, did you contact R&M directly or with your R&M dealer, did you receive any feedback from R&M, did R&M took the problem under warranty ?

CEBEP

Thanks Jipe
I talked to my bicycle mechanic and he said it will not be a problem to switch it to Ahimano hub with 135mm and disk brakes. My understanding it’s a matter of choosing a system, Shimano or XDR, right? Shimano is widely available in Turkey while I’m not so sure about XDR hubs/cassettes.

glye

I agree there should be more bikes, including Birdy, delivered with Alfine 11 as an option. It's good value for money when you need the range and don't want or can't use cassette gears.

Enviolo is a very good hub for ebikes: Very strong, long lasting, low maintenance, supremely easy to understand for bike beginners, and is even offered with automatic, constant cadence shifting. I have 13 000 km on my older Nuvinci hub now, with no servicing and no sign of trouble. On a pedelec ebike the poor efficiency and high weight means only a bit shorter battery range, not less speed. But I would not want it on a non-assisted bike!

When the cassette hub body cracked I contacted the Norwegian dealer, who sent me a new body under warranty. When the second body cracked a short time later, I gave up and ordered the Alfine 11. I don't know if the Norwegian dealer contacted R&M, but they probably did, since they're a small shop and they probably needed to order the part from R&M. I got no feedback from R&M.

Shortly after this the hub body of my Sturmey Archer X-RDC also cracked, and I took it apart and found it to be the same internal freewheel mech design as the Sunrace one, only the Sunrace is aluminium while the SA is steel. Not so strange since Sunrace owns Sturmey Archer. That's why I don't recommend the SA CS-RK3 (DualDrive lookalike), it is likely to have the same weakness.

Yes, given that R&M continues to offer the Sunrace option, one would think there are not many failures. But I had 3 failures of this design in a short time, and I will not give them a 4th chance.
I wonder what would have happened if I had kept on requesting new bodies 1-2 times per year until warranty expired... surely there would have been some raised eyebrows at R&M.