georges1

Until you have a breakdown and you are blocked in a high gear as was Mollema
Mechanical derailleurs rarely fail if maintained properly but when an electronic circuit fails and it is dead good luck for replacing it unlike a cable. Rain and electronic don't mix well neither with mud. Mechanical shifting is doingfine and works for daily rides in any situation. As for Di 2, it equips the majorityof the professionnal professional road bike racing teams ,not the case of SRAM. I like things that I can fix and not things that are not repairable. I am not the right customer for buying electronic shifting to be honest.

Fox Farm

I see Record for not much more on sale

GhostRider62

One of my two calls of shame were due to a snapped spring in mechanical rear derailleur where it then went into the spokes and of course snapped off the hanger. In 5 seasons, I am batting a 1000 with electronic. Mollema seems to have a lot of problem, especially with the big ring.

t2p

don’t own a bike with electronic shifting - but I like it

especially wireless

PeteHski

Are you seriously trying to convince me that I should go back to mechanical shifting based on one infamous video and a few false flags? Sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself out of insecurity that nothing could possibly be better than your own gear.

The 2 reasons I prefer SRAM to Di2 are the multiple swappable batteries and fully wireless setup. I'm not a sponsored rider, so I'm free to choose. I would happily ride Di2 if it came on a new bike. I would prefer either to mechanical at this point

georges1

False flags I don't think so if the SRAM failed, it can fail again. I haven't heared about horror stories about DI2 unless I am missing a thing. Like I said before I am not into wireless electronic transmission but to each their own.

GhostRider62

At least we have progressed to discussing the merits of SRAM vs Di2.

I took out my ancient 70's Masi with tubies and DT Campy recently, it was like driving a Model T. Nostalgic but not really fun.

Redbullet

I don’t lie, why do you think I’d lie you?
In 2015-2016 we had a number of options for buying a very good and light road bike (mechanical and rim brakes), in the range of 6.5-7 kg, at a price between 2300 and 3000 EUR. Hard to show a list on the internet now, as time has passed, but just take a look at this awesome 2015 Canyon at 6.8 kg and 2600 EUR, in the link below. Nowadays, you hardly can find a good bike of 7.5-8 kg, at a price of 4200 EUR. But that was the past...
P.S.: I now can see that the options might have been available only in EU.
https://kombikes.com/2015-canyon-ultimate-cf-sl/

GhostRider62

Now you are conflating money. Let's not confuse matters lest I accuse you of being disingenuous.

The Canyon with mid grade Di2 and the same carbon make up as the old bike you linked is 7.14 Kg.

A difference of 340 grams. 5% differential in weight for a middle of the road group. The difference at the top end is closer to 250 grams as I outlined about. But at the UCI limit

If you want to go light, go for the top of the line Canyon race bike with dura ace, it is only 6.3 Kg. I consider buying one it but the geometry does not work for me.

Redbullet

No.
I put the link of a Canyon CF SL from 2015, with 6.8kg and 2600 EUR price, aluminum rims, aluminum stem and handlebar, etc. You will note that in the article they say that CF SLX was their top model, but they only analyze the lower CF SL.
You refer to an actual Canyon CF SLX from 2023, with 7.14 kg and 6500 EUR price, carbon rims, carbon stem/handlebar. This is a totally different line, at totally different price. But still heavier than cheaper 2015.
If you go for CF SL - to be comparable with the 2015 bike in my example, the best you will find is CF SL 7 DI2, at 8 kg and 4000 EUR. It is 105, not ultegra, because they made another layering here: you can't buy Ultegra without carbon rims. Canyon is not the only one that imposed such layering in the last year(s).

Sorry if you are still under the impression that I somehow want to cheat you, but I really don't; I know very well what I bought years ago.
Maybe we should leave it here?

GhostRider62

Fine

I listed the actual weight differences from a scale

You listed something entirely different.

The actual weight difference due to modern grouppos is well under 1 pound, more like 250 grams. You can believe what you want, so, let us just disagree

Redbullet

Well... in fact, maybe now we just start to agree .
I also considered the weight difference between disk and rim brakes. In total, I don't claim a very high accuracy in the limits of +/- 100-200 grams, it is just an assessment.
But being again in the situation to hunt for a bike (as I was years ago), I can see an obvious tendency of increasing in weight with around 1 kg vs aquivalent, when the only relevant differences are disks vs rims brakes and electronic vs mechanic, all together with a price increase around around 80-90% (incl. move to electronic), vs 2015-2016. That is all and it is not quite "customer friendly", but there is no choice.

genejockey 

If you can't tell the difference, did you really need to shift?

Kontact 

The thing that always seems funny about this debate is that current mechanical shifters are built to move derailleurs that could be controlled by friction shifters. So even though we are index only, we have to fight a derailleur return spring that gets stiffer as we shift toward the lowest gear in back.

In that light electronic shifting becomes a Rube Goldberg solution to avoiding derailleur return springs, instead of just abandoning the friction control paradigm and making control of the derailleurs something mechanically more sophisticated that requires less force or lever travel.

Steve B.

Mechanical derailleurs rarely fail if maintained properly but when an electronic circuit fails and it is dead good luck for replacing it unlike a cable. Rain and electronicdon't mix well neither with mud

This is fallacy of your argument. The overwhelming general experience of electronic users is the systems rarely if ever actually fail. And in less then ideal conditions it continues to work, rain included. Mud is where it shines as the cables are essentially not affected the way mechanical can get grit into the housing, that doesn't happen with electronic and if anything, electronic works better for a person riding in crappy conditions regularly.

Bah Humbug

Indeed. Some of us actually like manual shifting... though yes I have run into a few who like crank windows for whatever reason.

PeteHski

I've read about the odd Di2 battery failure on this forum. It's fair enough that you are not "into wireless electronic transmission", but there's no need to justify it with vague nonsense about reliability. If I have a SRAM electronic failure I will be sure to mention it here so you can feel more secure.

Bah Humbug

I have enough friends with eTap issues I wouldn't trust it. I've had and read enough about SRAM mechanical issues that I wouldn't trust that either.

Shimano has worked just fine, both mechanical and Di2. I'd trust Campy as well.

DaveSSS 

After 25 years with Campy, I switched to SRAM AXS. I've got three bikes with AXS and had zero problems. Two lever shifting is my favorite. No way I'd go back to any four lever system. I don't use SRAM cranks though. I want more range, so Shimano GRX cranks is what I use. Never had a chain drop and I don't use a FD wedge or a chain catcher.

Maelochs

Pretty much all higher-end (other than box-store/entry-level) bikes are much lighter than they were 20 years ago and do everything much better.

I see this in cameras ... people nowadays can buy cameras with immensely greater resolution, much higher frame-per-second, with more controls and sensitivity than the pros used thirty years ago. An entry-level Canon is better than the best pro camera at the very beginning of the digital age. People have lost sight of how good things are.

We are arguing about bikes weighing 8.5 kg instead of 7.5 kg .... 20 years ago except racers on custom-made machinery, people would have been thrilled with an 8 kg bike. My first "ten-speed," as we called them back then, was a Schwinn Suburban which weighed 46 pounds ..... I did a fully loaded tour in 2002 on a rebuilt/modded Schwinn which weighted 32 pounds---eleven consecutive 100-mile days. And friction shifting, 3x6. How did we ever survive such hardship?

If it weren't for the racer/weight-weenie push (which a lot of people decry in other threads) and various marketing departments seeing low weight as a selling point (several hundred dollars per 100 grams selling point) we'd all see a 17-lb bike as a lightweight machine. And it is .... but we have bought some of the conditioning.

A bike with disc brakes and wider tires is likely every bit as fast and rides more comfortably than the same bike with skinny tires and rim brakes---I can compare my two Workswells, one with Ultegra mechanical (rims) and rock-hard 23s, and the other on softer 28s, with 105 mech and rim brakes. Maybe 350 gram difference (16.5 to 17.25 lbs ready to roll, as I recall)..... but neither is particularly faster.

Add a pound for discs and electronic .... a huge change? I don't see it as being a problem. And while I don't personally need road discs (though I have them on my Fuji) I don't see them as being a drawback ... being able to panic-stop with two fingers and ride with one seems okay.

I have never tried electronic shifting but I note two classes---one group which has tried it and says, "Wow, I would never go back" and another group which hasn't tried it and lists endless imaginary drawbacks. 'Nuff said here.

As for Seypat ... you are not even trying. Seriously, No One is ever going to service 120 mm dropout riders. That is fifty-year-old tech. No one can make money selling it except to C&V folks, at top dollar. Your demanding what you demand is basically saying, "No company is willing to invest in a market so small as to be unmeasurable, and to lose significant money and maybe lose their businesses ..... " which speaks for itself.

You know, I prefer a stick-shift. I drive a 20-year-old Honda with a tiny, almost impotent engine and a five-speed and I Love it. I have enough miles on automatics to know what's up there, but for me part of the driving experience is shifting, trying to perfectly coordinate my various body parts and the various mechanical parts, to take maximum advantage of the systems controls .... My wife's 7- or 8-speed or whatever in her V6 Toyota has three times the power and super-easy part-throttle kickdown and basically does everything better than I ever could, but I love my Honda.

Guess what? Like it or not, my next car--if I get one---will almost certainly have an double-clutch box. Time marches on.

If I can no longer reasonably afford 5800 and 6800 replacement parts for my bikes, I will need to buy what is on the market. Such is life. First-World struggles are real. I might have to ... buy another bike (or two.) Horrors!!!!

The fact that in a lot of places people don't have food and I am crying because bike parts have gotten so expensive ... what? What's your point.

Basically, this Retro-Grouch wrote an article he knew would generate a ton of reactions ... and look, so many people took the bait!

The guy probably owns six or eight bikes, and two (the ones he rides most) probably have hydro discs and electronic shifting, plus a couple old steel bikes he has had forever and hardly rides .... but he needed to come up with a column, and he knows if he gets a lot of online reactions he can ask for a raise next year, so ......

tomato coupe

Post reported to moderators for excessive reasonableness.

SoSmellyAir

I don't think so?

Spring Rate 101 – A Simple Guide to Understanding Spring Rates (hardwareproducts.com)

Kontact 

What don't you think so? Derailleurs without return springs have already been made.

SoSmellyAir

I was merely disagreeing with your statement that the RD return spring gets stiffer toward the largest cog. I don't think that the RD return spring is a progressive spring; rather, its spring rate stays the same throughout the movement range of the RD.

C9H13N 

Too bad they fail at the subjective measure of “soul”.

I’m still driving a 6 speed manual in 2023 and I’m not at all excited about the future of the driving experience.