Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

A Universal Question

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

A Universal Question

Old 11-12-19, 07:56 AM
  #1  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Thread Starter
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,229

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 174 Posts
A Universal Question

I've seen them twice...braze on Universal center pull calipers. I saw them once on a Marastoni that I was outbid on, and once in CDM's garage. Does anyone know if these had a unique model number? How hens tooth are they? For reasons I won't immediately share, I'd like to source a pair.
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 08:09 AM
  #2  
TenGrainBread 
Senior Member
 
TenGrainBread's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,742
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 649 Times in 336 Posts
There's always a possibility they were converted from regular center-mount calipers. People do this regularly with MAFAC and Dia Compe centerpulls.

If they are factory that would intrigue me as well...
TenGrainBread is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 08:16 AM
  #3  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Thread Starter
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,229

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 174 Posts
Originally Posted by TenGrainBread
There's always a possibility they were converted from regular center-mount calipers. People do this regularly with MAFAC and Dia Compe centerpulls.

If they are factory that would intrigue me as well...
I'm not sure...to be honest, I didn't know they were converted regularly.
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 08:24 AM
  #4  
Moe Zhoost
Half way there
 
Moe Zhoost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,955

Bikes: Many, and the list changes frequently

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 985 Post(s)
Liked 879 Times in 526 Posts
Originally Posted by TenGrainBread
There's always a possibility they were converted from regular center-mount calipers. People do this regularly with MAFAC and Dia Compe centerpulls.

If they are factory that would intrigue me as well...
I've seen these many years ago, though my memory is vague.. I'm not sure that they were conversions back then, though. Rather the frames were intentionally designed with bosses to fit. Sort of a precursor to cantilevers.
Moe Zhoost is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 08:28 AM
  #5  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,691

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 510 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7287 Post(s)
Liked 2,364 Times in 1,382 Posts
I've read that brakes like those work great. I've always been more than happy with regular MAFAC brakes and wonder how much better they can get.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 08:40 AM
  #6  
gomango
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: STP
Posts: 15,223
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 821 Post(s)
Liked 253 Times in 141 Posts
Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
I'm not sure...to be honest, I didn't know they were converted regularly.
It's been awhile, but I think the Universals I had on the Mariposa were Model 61s.

I didn't have that bike very long, but I recollect we used modded Kool Stop pads.

There was a clearance issue on the front with fenders, so we cut them down to 2/3rds length.

My buddy that refreshed the bike switched them to Compass centerpulls.

Not sure why, but probably because they were shiny and new.

I don't know that the Compass brakeset was an upgrade.

I'll try to get some pics and I'll add them to the thread down the road.
gomango is offline  
Likes For gomango:
Old 11-12-19, 08:45 AM
  #7  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,324
Mentioned: 414 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3782 Post(s)
Liked 3,287 Times in 2,147 Posts
-----

Fratelli Pietra information online in English is limited.

Possible there may be detailed discussion of this on one or more of the Italian fora.

Another place to check would be the CR email list.

Perhaps @MauriceMoss will have some helpful information...

-----
juvela is offline  
Likes For juvela:
Old 11-12-19, 09:13 AM
  #8  
TenGrainBread 
Senior Member
 
TenGrainBread's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,742
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 649 Times in 336 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
I've seen these many years ago, though my memory is vague.. I'm not sure that they were conversions back then, though. Rather the frames were intentionally designed with bosses to fit. Sort of a precursor to cantilevers.
It's unclear whether centerpulls or cantilever brakes came first. @T-Mar has done a little research and has found examples of both from the late 1800s. Part of the answer depends on how you define "cantilever" and "centerpull".

Any centerpull brakes utilizing the braze-on studs, regardless if Universal, MAFAC, Dia Compe, etc... require a specific mounting stud placement on the fork and frame, above the wheel. The studs are shorter and a different diameter than cantilever studs (except when using Paul centerpulls, which use standard cantilever studs). When I said "conversion" above, I mean replacing the hardware at the pivots in the brake calipers such that they can fit and pivot around braze-on studs instead of pivoting independently from the frame (as they do when mounted via one central bolt). I didn't mean converting a frame/fork.

Braze-on centerpulls were a popular option on custom and semi-custom frame in France for many decades, and even some production frames, such as Meral and I believe a couple of high-end Peugeot bikes built under contract by smaller builders. They generally use MAFAC brakes, though. I haven't seen Universal centerpulls being used, but I'm sure it's possible with the right pivot hardware.

Last edited by TenGrainBread; 11-12-19 at 09:18 AM.
TenGrainBread is offline  
Likes For TenGrainBread:
Old 11-12-19, 09:22 AM
  #9  
Hudson308 
Mr. Anachronism
 
Hudson308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Somewhere west of Tobie's
Posts: 2,093

Bikes: fillet-brazed Chicago Schwinns, and some other stuff

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 526 Post(s)
Liked 256 Times in 165 Posts
I think you need to immediately share why you'd like to source a pair.
__________________
"My only true wisdom is in knowing I have none" -Socrates
Hudson308 is offline  
Likes For Hudson308:
Old 11-12-19, 09:25 AM
  #10  
67tony 
Senior Member
 
67tony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Williamsburg, VA Sebastian, FL
Posts: 1,373

Bikes: 1987 Centurion Ironman Master, 1992 Koga Miyata Exerciser, 1992 Schwinn Crosscut

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 209 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 174 Times in 91 Posts
I continue to be amazed...
How the heck do you guys KNOW SO MUCH???

67tony is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 09:46 AM
  #11  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Thread Starter
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,229

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 174 Posts
Originally Posted by 67tony
I continue to be amazed...
How the heck do you guys KNOW SO MUCH???

Well, I just make stuff up. It works with clients, and usually the IRS.

Originally Posted by Hudson308
I think you need to immediately share why you'd like to source a pair.
If it happens, it's a long ways down the road.
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 09:46 AM
  #12  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,324
Mentioned: 414 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3782 Post(s)
Liked 3,287 Times in 2,147 Posts
-----

Sidenote -

Once one gets seven decades back, and beyond, it is possible to encounter both centrepulls and cantilevers whose pivot posts are clamp-ons.


-----
juvela is offline  
Likes For juvela:
Old 11-12-19, 10:36 AM
  #13  
gomango
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: STP
Posts: 15,223
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 821 Post(s)
Liked 253 Times in 141 Posts
Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
Well, I just make stuff up. It works with clients, and usually the IRS.



If it happens, it's a long ways down the road.
Going to have a little something built?
gomango is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 10:40 AM
  #14  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Thread Starter
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,229

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 174 Posts
Originally Posted by gomango
Going to have a little something built?
No. Probably not. Possibly?
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Likes For KonAaron Snake:
Old 11-12-19, 10:55 AM
  #15  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,691

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 510 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7287 Post(s)
Liked 2,364 Times in 1,382 Posts
Originally Posted by 67tony
I continue to be amazed...
How the heck do you guys KNOW SO MUCH???

I've learned a lot here.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 11:44 AM
  #16  
gomango
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: STP
Posts: 15,223
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 821 Post(s)
Liked 253 Times in 141 Posts
Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
No. Probably not. Possibly?
I get the itch pretty often to have something built, but then I look at the basement full of neat bikes.

It's a-ok to dream. imho
gomango is offline  
Old 11-12-19, 12:08 PM
  #17  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,324
Mentioned: 414 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3782 Post(s)
Liked 3,287 Times in 2,147 Posts
Originally Posted by 67tony
i continue to be amazed...
How the heck do you guys know so much???


-----





-----
juvela is offline  
Old 11-13-19, 07:13 AM
  #18  
T-Mar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,233
Mentioned: 652 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4719 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,034 Times in 1,874 Posts
Like TenGrainBread, I suspect these were converted from standard centre-pull models. Brazed-on (aka direct mount) centre-pull brakes, while relatively rare, eliminate the weight and flex of the brake bridge. The latter increases both braking power and modulation. The downside is the added cost of the brazing operation for studs. One can argue the quantitative benefits but it is the nth degree type of detail that appealed to constructeurs and their high end clients.

Typically, when a company manufacturers a direct mount component, they also supply the brazed-on fitting to guarantee compatibility. This is why companies like Campagnolo and Shimano offered dropouts and shift lever bosses. Consequently, if a company offered direct mount brakes, you would expect to see matching bosses and this is the case when you look at the cantilevers in a MAFAC catalogue. Dia-Compe catalogues show brazed-on fittings for both their cantilever and centre-pull models (see scan) but the entries for the centre-pull brakes makes no specific mention of direct mount versions. This suggests that Dia-Compe considered demand for direct mount centre-pull brakes to be so small that they were either non-catalogued special orders or manufacturer conversions. Often, with niche products, it's less expensive for large volume manufacturers to offer a standard product than change the manufacturing, packaging and logistics process.

I have seen relatively few Universal catalogues but none that I have seen include direct mount fittings or brakes, either cantilever or centre-pull.

As an aside, I distinctively remember seeing my first direct mount centre-pull brakes, as it made such as impression on me. They were Dia-Compe on a 1976 Centurion Pro Tour.

It's also worth noting the current trend towards direct mount dual pivot brakes as an option to disc brakes, though the forks and stays use recessed threaded fittings, as opposed to protruding studs, as recessed fittings are more appropriate for carbon fibre frames.


Last edited by T-Mar; 11-13-19 at 07:22 AM.
T-Mar is offline  
Likes For T-Mar:
Old 11-13-19, 07:51 AM
  #19  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Thread Starter
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,229

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 174 Posts
Great post T-mar, and thank you.

I have to admit I'm curious about direct mount dual pivots, but, at the same time, I like going dual front, single rear for the mix of power and modulation. I've never used a dual pivot brake and wished it had more stopping power, so I'm wondering if this is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I (briefly) owned one of those Centurions, but never really rode it. Stunning bike though.

IF I do start looking at this project, I'm still leaning direct mount center pull.
Originally Posted by T-Mar
Like TenGrainBread, I suspect these were converted from standard centre-pull models. Brazed-on (aka direct mount) centre-pull brakes, while relatively rare, eliminate the weight and flex of the brake bridge. The latter increases both braking power and modulation. The downside is the added cost of the brazing operation for studs. One can argue the quantitative benefits but it is the nth degree type of detail that appealed to constructeurs and their high end clients.

Typically, when a company manufacturers a direct mount component, they also supply the brazed-on fitting to guarantee compatibility. This is why companies like Campagnolo and Shimano offered dropouts and shift lever bosses. Consequently, if a company offered direct mount brakes, you would expect to see matching bosses and this is the case when you look at the cantilevers in a MAFAC catalogue. Dia-Compe catalogues show brazed-on fittings for both their cantilever and centre-pull models (see scan) but the entries for the centre-pull brakes makes no specific mention of direct mount versions. This suggests that Dia-Compe considered demand for direct mount centre-pull brakes to be so small that they were either non-catalogued special orders or manufacturer conversions. Often, with niche products, it's less expensive for large volume manufacturers to offer a standard product than change the manufacturing, packaging and logistics process.

I have seen relatively few Universal catalogues but none that I have seen include direct mount fittings or brakes, either cantilever or centre-pull.

As an aside, I distinctively remember seeing my first direct mount centre-pull brakes, as it made such as impression on me. They were Dia-Compe on a 1976 Centurion Pro Tour.

It's also worth noting the current trend towards direct mount dual pivot brakes as an option to disc brakes, though the forks and stays use recessed threaded fittings, as opposed to protruding studs, as recessed fittings are more appropriate for carbon fibre frames.

KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 11-13-19, 11:16 AM
  #20  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,691

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 510 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7287 Post(s)
Liked 2,364 Times in 1,382 Posts
You will find that dual pivots stop with slightly less effort than center pulls, but the difference is small for a strong person like you. Maybe you got a bad sample from dual pivots, because they really are excellent. And I remember Campagnolo's rationale for having a single pivot in the back, but I think it's silly. These brakes are not hard to control. Not that it's a bad setup, either, it's just not necessary or even optimal.

Each choice represents some kind of compromise.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 11-13-19, 11:42 AM
  #21  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Thread Starter
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,229

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 174 Posts
Originally Posted by noglider
You will find that dual pivots stop with slightly less effort than center pulls, but the difference is small for a strong person like you. Maybe you got a bad sample from dual pivots, because they really are excellent. And I remember Campagnolo's rationale for having a single pivot in the back, but I think it's silly. These brakes are not hard to control. Not that it's a bad setup, either, it's just not necessary or even optimal.

Each choice represents some kind of compromise.
I like dual pivot brakes quite a bit...

I have the campy dual/single combo...and I think they're onto something with it. I have AMPLE stopping power, and I like it's ability to flutter as well.
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 11-13-19, 05:45 PM
  #22  
Dfrost 
Senior Member
 
Dfrost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 1,988

Bikes: ‘87 Marinoni SLX Sports Tourer, ‘79 Miyata 912 by Gugificazione

Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked 464 Times in 255 Posts
After Gugificazione mods to the fork of the 1979 Miyata 912, I now have a braze-on centerpull front (so that I could use a front rack, bag, etc.) and bolt-on dual pivot (RX100 in this case) in back. Pads on both ends are Kool Stop salmons. Brake feel/lever travel with Campy/Sachs Ergo levers is good for both brakes. Since this photo, I’ve switched to Kool Stop Cyclocross Linear pads for a better fit against the 23mm wide rim. Works great!

Not sure if Universal 61’s would fit the same pivots, but I was also able to fit MAFAC Racers on the posts that’s @gugie used. I prefer the quieter operation and easier setup of the Dia-Compe (also lighter). Brake feel seems a bit nicer with DC.

Dfrost is offline  
Old 11-13-19, 10:19 PM
  #23  
Jeff Wills
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
 
Jeff Wills's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: other Vancouver
Posts: 9,811
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 788 Post(s)
Liked 688 Times in 367 Posts
Originally Posted by 67tony
I continue to be amazed...
How the heck do you guys KNOW SO MUCH???

Developed my mental muscles lifting Schwinn Varsities onto shop racks.

The real reason: I lived through the '80's and '90's, a chaotic time for the bicycle business. Now I'm older than dirt and freely share my hard-won knowledge.
__________________
Jeff Wills

Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
Jeff Wills is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.