Road Fan

Hi, Jeff! Where did you look in Wikipedia, and found that statement about the science of countersteering? I’d like to know what they think is missing.

Shimagnolo

A fault I find with the MSF course is that they don't teach about counter-steering.
After passing the MSF course and getting my CO motorcycle endorsement, I bought a bike.

The first time I descended Boulder Canyon, I missed a curve. i.e. I ran off the left side of a righthand curve into the gravel, but thankfully there was enough space to brake to a stop w/o hitting anything or dropping the bike. Shaken, I went hope and began an online search for everything about turning motorcycles. I learned a lot!

Shimagnolo

Here are a couple videos demonstrating counter steering.

In the first, he engages cruise control at 20mph in a large parking lot, and just pushes one end of the bars at a time, Jump to 1:40 where it begins:

In the second, the video is shot by a bystander and played in slow motion, so you can see the movement of the front wheel. This is at 8mph:

AdkMtnMonster

That’s not countersteering! It’s weighting the inside end of the handlebar. Try thus: walk alongside your motorcycle in a parking lot or on a bike driveway, keeping the cycle upright and rolling straight. Lean it over to initiate a turn to the left while turning the bars to the right, and report back.

AlmostTrick

Counter steering was taught in the League of American Bicyclists road course. To initiate a turn you briefly push the bars the opposite direction you wish to go. This sets the bike lean up for the direction you want to turn. The quicker and harder you do this the quicker the turn. They taught us how to do this to avoid road obstacles.

Counter steering is for initiating a turn and cannot be maintained. If you push the bar forward and hold it there you will soon be going down.

Shimagnolo

I do 5000 miles a year on a motorcycle in the mountain twisties here in CO.
You are wrong.
See post #28, first video.

terrymorse 

Yes, yes it is.

Repeat after me: Turning a two-wheeled cycle using the handlebars requires counter steering. There is literally no other way to do it.

AlmostTrick

Maybe the LAB training was wrong, or maybe motorcycles are different, but I don't think so.

So to turn right you push the bars left (that's counter steering) and hold it there? Video please.

AlmostTrick

Ok, so I went back and checked the motorcycle video. When he says "see I PUSH left", he is pulling back not pushing forward.

AdkMtnMonster

Countersteering can be used to shift the weight to the side of the intended turn, but for a left turn STEERING right of center (once already turning) will NOT result in a left turn. Weighting, weight shifting and leaning on a handlebar are NOT countersteering. But please, turn right to go left. It works for UPS. What else can brown do for you, besides stain your shorts?

terrymorse 

​AlmostTrick is correct. Your bike will not turn left while the front wheel is pointing right (counter steered).

On a motorcycle in a turn, you need to continue pushing "counter" on the bars to counteract the trail forces trying to center the bars. But once in the turn, there is absolutely no counter steering (unless you intentionally counter steer to shorten the turn radius).

AdkMtnMonster

People are confusing counterWEIGHT with counterSTEER. This is sad. I grieve for the children of the future.

AlmostTrick

Ok, this makes sense, and is likely where some of the confusion is coming from. Well said!

terrymorse 

If you are already in a left turn and you counter steer, you won't turn left?

I don't follow that at all.

If you are in a left turn and you counter steer to the right, the bike will lean farther to the left, you will compensate for the lean by turning the bars left, and the radius of the turn will decrease.

Rule: Counter steering in the middle of a turn tightens the turn radius.

AdkMtnMonster

Not once in the first video did the bike’s handlebar turn RIGHT when he was making LEFT turns. Pushing on the left bar, once turning, prevents the turn from tightening up and works to establish a balance of energy between speed, angular momentum, acceleration and center of mass and gravity. It’s still not countersteering. Sorry.

Shimagnolo

I think this is a point of confusion here.
I use the term counter to include the opposite pressure while maintaining the turn, but yes, the wheel only briefly points in the opposite direction on the initiation.

AdkMtnMonster

Read what I wrote again. Turning RIGHT OF CENTER in a LEFT TURN (actual example of countersteering) will not tighten your turn. Handlebars and front wheel will always be turned in the direction of the turn, just like in the first video in post #28.

Steel might be real, but countersteering to turn is not.

terrymorse 

Incorrect. The bars turn right at the initiation of the left turn. To repeat, there is literally no way to use the handlebars to initiate a left turn without counter steering.

Also incorrect. Pushing on the LEFT bar, once in the LEFT turn, resists the trail forces of the front wheel from straightening the bike and ending the turn. It prevents the turn from loosening up.

terrymorse 

Still incorrect, no matter how many times you write it.

Counter steering is the only way you can use your handlebars to:

• initiate a turn
• change the radius of a turn

When in the middle of a turn, most people never use counter steering to change the radius of a turn, but it is a valuable skill. I've used it many times to avoid debris or potholes that I see at the last moment, or an oncoming vehicle that's crossed the center line.

terrymorse 

Others completely misunderstand the simple physics of counter steering.

seypat

After thinking about it, I use the Jeannie method from "I Dream Of Jeannie." I don't have to blink my eyes like Jeannie, either. I think it, and it happens.

Road Fan

(replying to myself)

I’ve just been reading the Wiki article called “Counter-steering.” There are a lot of other articles which come up in the list of articles, and I don’t know if they are consistent. The one I found shows two kinds of counter-steering. The first one is “by momentarily steering counter to the desired direction ("steer left to turn right").”

The second one (somewhat down-page) in called “counter steering by leaning,” which would have to be what we do when we no-hand.

In both cases after starting the turn, there is the trade off between keeping the upper body in-plane with the bike frame, leaning the upper body into the turn more than the bike frame (better pedal clearance), and leaning the upper body away from the turn (less pedal clearance and the tires are running closer to the sidewalls).

This Wiki article clarified that for both kinds of counter-steer, the counter-steer is for initiating a turn. The bicycle must transition from the steady state of vertical, stable motion in a straight line to a (simplified) steady state of leaning, stable motion in a constantly curved path. I call this “simplified” because a curved path can have varying radius. I think the two modes of counter-steering can force the bike to transition from the leaned mode back into the vertical mode.

I haven’t read the whole Wiki page, but I don’t see where that author says something suggesting the science is incomplete. What I see is that the steered and leaned transitions between two steady state types of path are explained, and the distinctions between steady motion and transitions are made pretty clearly. We weren’t taken into the math, but it seems to me one can create math models for everything that was discussed. With my ancient history in college physics, nothing looks wrong or omitted to me, at least assuming smooth roads, rigid frames and wheels, and of course the ubiquitous ideal sphere from physics textbooks.

Question: where is that sphere when I’m pedaling?

Ken

Happy Feet

I think perhaps the confusion is in the term counter "steering".

What you are doing is maintaining your balance in a lean by pushing against the inside bar.

Example: You are turning left, leaning left,
You push against the left bar with your left hand to maintain your balance and keep your body up.
If you pull left with your left hand to maintain balance, you would decrease the radius of the turn, your body would not be able to balance and you would fall into the turn or you would counter too quickly and flop the other way.
If you pull right with the right hand to maintain balance you lay the bike down more on its left side (pulling yourself across the top of the bike).
If you push right with the right hand you again decrease the radius of the turn while shifting weight over the bike and laying it down, eventually losing traction on the sidewalls.

Pushing against the left bar allows you to balance and maintain traction through the bike into the tires/road.

When people bail in a turn they usually are going too fast and get afraid of the steep lean and try to right themselves mid turn by pulling the right side of the bar. That increases the radius but shifts their body weight to the outside and they can't maintain the turn so they wander into the oncoming lane. The option then is really to decrease speed while maintaining the turn which is difficult if task loaded and usually one learns to decrease before the turn and then power up through it.

It may be called counter steering but its really counter weighting.

redcon1

Hmm I took both the Basic and Advanced MSF courses years ago, in the early 90's, and the instructors talked about countersteering at length. It was a skill we had to demonstrate repeatedly to pass the course.. much more so in the Advanced course--- but even in the Basic course as evasive maneuvering. Have they eliminated this from the POI?

indyfabz

This train is right on schedule.