Campagnolo Record with a long cage?
#1
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Campagnolo Record with a long cage?
Hello,
I’m converting a racing bike from 66 to a 650b randonneur. It has fully campagnolo parts and I was thinking that it would be nice to keep it as far as possible like that.
I know that campagnolo nuovo record can be converted in to a longcage with a cage from rally. But would the same cage work on earlier record derailleur?
or are there some other longcage derailleurs from 66 or earlier?
I have a huret jubilee as a back up plan, but its bit too new…
thanks!
I’m converting a racing bike from 66 to a 650b randonneur. It has fully campagnolo parts and I was thinking that it would be nice to keep it as far as possible like that.
I know that campagnolo nuovo record can be converted in to a longcage with a cage from rally. But would the same cage work on earlier record derailleur?
or are there some other longcage derailleurs from 66 or earlier?
I have a huret jubilee as a back up plan, but its bit too new…
thanks!
#2
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Hello,
I’m converting a racing bike from 66 to a 650b randonneur. It has fully campagnolo parts and I was thinking that it would be nice to keep it as far as possible like that.
I know that campagnolo nuovo record can be converted in to a longcage with a cage from rally. But would the same cage work on earlier record derailleur?
or are there some other longcage derailleurs from 66 or earlier?
I have a huret jubilee as a back up plan, but its bit too new…
thanks!
I’m converting a racing bike from 66 to a 650b randonneur. It has fully campagnolo parts and I was thinking that it would be nice to keep it as far as possible like that.
I know that campagnolo nuovo record can be converted in to a longcage with a cage from rally. But would the same cage work on earlier record derailleur?
or are there some other longcage derailleurs from 66 or earlier?
I have a huret jubilee as a back up plan, but its bit too new…
thanks!
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#4
Disraeli Gears
Hello,
I’m converting a racing bike from 66 to a 650b randonneur. It has fully campagnolo parts and I was thinking that it would be nice to keep it as far as possible like that.
I know that campagnolo nuovo record can be converted in to a longcage with a cage from rally. But would the same cage work on earlier record derailleur?
or are there some other longcage derailleurs from 66 or earlier?
I’m converting a racing bike from 66 to a 650b randonneur. It has fully campagnolo parts and I was thinking that it would be nice to keep it as far as possible like that.
I know that campagnolo nuovo record can be converted in to a longcage with a cage from rally. But would the same cage work on earlier record derailleur?
or are there some other longcage derailleurs from 66 or earlier?
#5
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#6
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You haven't disclosed exactly which model you're talking about; that might help you find an answer. Picture(s) too. A few years ago, BF member Henry III was making water-jet cut Rally-type cage plates from 1/8" aluminum for people on an asked-for basis, to fit either Nuovo or Super Record short-cage derailleurs. I have a pair, that I'd be willing to copy, if you want to get a local shop to make you some. Don't know if they'd fit a Gran Sport or other early Campy derailleur.
Hello, sorry I thought I was clear on what model I ment. The derailleur the bike has is the first record derailleur before nuovo or the super. This diy cage you are talking about sounds amazing though. As a copy do you mean you could send me the dimensions for it?
#7
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#8
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I found a post that has all the right answer. Seems that the same aftermarket cage that works for nuovo record, doesn’t fit the record. But the shimano seems to work!
now I just have to find a crane for the cage…
Not what you asked, but a Fun Fact: A Crane cage (short or GS) bolts right onto a Campy Record, the older steel and bronze one (early '60s) that preceded the NR.
If you need a wider gear range than a Record can wrap, and you refuse to put a proper touring derailer on your old racing bike for sentimental reasons, the GS cage can make that happen. It's not going to fool anyone, but you can plausibly claim it was done back in '72 or whenever, to salvage a little vintage cred.
I sorta lied about "bolts right on", there is a tiny little blip of aluminum you must remove from the GS cage, but it takes 5 seconds with a Dremel and it doesn't prevent it from working on the Crane mech if you switch it back (non-destructive)
Even putting the short Crane cage on a Record improves it's shifting and range a little, and saves some weight (the Record cage is steel). But I'd only do it if my Record cage was mucked up somehow. Otherwise, keeping it original trumps the tiny advantages of the "upgrade".
Note, a NR or Rally cage will not bolt onto a Record, their attachment is different. Similarly the Crane cage will not bolt onto a NR. If you have a NR then the long cage to get is the Rally, or the modern repro of it, sold by Soma.
Mark B
If you need a wider gear range than a Record can wrap, and you refuse to put a proper touring derailer on your old racing bike for sentimental reasons, the GS cage can make that happen. It's not going to fool anyone, but you can plausibly claim it was done back in '72 or whenever, to salvage a little vintage cred.
I sorta lied about "bolts right on", there is a tiny little blip of aluminum you must remove from the GS cage, but it takes 5 seconds with a Dremel and it doesn't prevent it from working on the Crane mech if you switch it back (non-destructive)
- Don't remove the entire raised bump if you want to be able to put it back on the Crane. Try mounting the Record spring cap to the cage and you'll see where you need to remove a little aluminum. It's a small portion of the entire raised bump. so the bump still works as intended on a Crane.
- Tapping threads for the "pawn" bolt is optional. That bolt isn't touched at all while riding, it's just for making wheel changes a little easier. It does the same thing that the raised bump does, when on a Crane, keeping the cage from over-rotating while the wheel is off.
Even putting the short Crane cage on a Record improves it's shifting and range a little, and saves some weight (the Record cage is steel). But I'd only do it if my Record cage was mucked up somehow. Otherwise, keeping it original trumps the tiny advantages of the "upgrade".
Note, a NR or Rally cage will not bolt onto a Record, their attachment is different. Similarly the Crane cage will not bolt onto a NR. If you have a NR then the long cage to get is the Rally, or the modern repro of it, sold by Soma.
Mark B
now I just have to find a crane for the cage…
Last edited by ToniH.; 09-25-22 at 10:09 AM.
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#9
Disraeli Gears
Wasn't clear to me.
I could scan them, verify critical dimensions (thickness, hole sizes and distances between them) with a dial caliper, draw them up in CAD, and send you a DXF or PDF vector file (either is a format that most fabricators can use). 1/8" plate is easy enough to find, I don't remember if Henry III was using a particular alloy, but whatever it was might be available from McMaster-Carr. I trawled through both threads linked-to below without ever seeing alloy info, nor thickness. Henry III was working in both aluminum and stainless steel plate. I know the plates I got are aluminum, but I'm not sure of the thickess without getting them out of my stash. If I were to try this out, I'd source some harder aluminum alloy than 6061, but that's just a seat-of-the-pants recommendation.
Here are a couple BF threads on this topic
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...started-1.html -- the original by Henry III (who hasn't posted on BF since December 2020), and you might want to look at the post #50 on page 2, concerning possible limitations and #57 (threading of pivot bolt on a NR) & #58 (pulley bolt considerations), #87, #91
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...lly-cages.html -- a follow-up by mkeller234 about implementation. You might want to look at post #7 and following ones about the quality of shifting of Campy derailleurs with longer cages -- I'm no expert.
I could scan them, verify critical dimensions (thickness, hole sizes and distances between them) with a dial caliper, draw them up in CAD, and send you a DXF or PDF vector file (either is a format that most fabricators can use). 1/8" plate is easy enough to find, I don't remember if Henry III was using a particular alloy, but whatever it was might be available from McMaster-Carr. I trawled through both threads linked-to below without ever seeing alloy info, nor thickness. Henry III was working in both aluminum and stainless steel plate. I know the plates I got are aluminum, but I'm not sure of the thickess without getting them out of my stash. If I were to try this out, I'd source some harder aluminum alloy than 6061, but that's just a seat-of-the-pants recommendation.
Here are a couple BF threads on this topic
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...started-1.html -- the original by Henry III (who hasn't posted on BF since December 2020), and you might want to look at the post #50 on page 2, concerning possible limitations and #57 (threading of pivot bolt on a NR) & #58 (pulley bolt considerations), #87, #91
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...lly-cages.html -- a follow-up by mkeller234 about implementation. You might want to look at post #7 and following ones about the quality of shifting of Campy derailleurs with longer cages -- I'm no expert.
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That's pretty cool.
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#11
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Wasn't clear to me.
I could scan them, verify critical dimensions (thickness, hole sizes and distances between them) with a dial caliper, draw them up in CAD, and send you a DXF or PDF vector file (either is a format that most fabricators can use). 1/8" plate is easy enough to find, I don't remember if Henry III was using a particular alloy, but whatever it was might be available from McMaster-Carr. I trawled through both threads linked-to below without ever seeing alloy info, nor thickness. Henry III was working in both aluminum and stainless steel plate. I know the plates I got are aluminum, but I'm not sure of the thickess without getting them out of my stash. If I were to try this out, I'd source some harder aluminum alloy than 6061, but that's just a seat-of-the-pants recommendation.
Here are a couple BF threads on this topic
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...started-1.html -- the original by Henry III (who hasn't posted on BF since December 2020), and you might want to look at the post #50 on page 2, concerning possible limitations and #57 (threading of pivot bolt on a NR) & #58 (pulley bolt considerations), #87, #91
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...lly-cages.html -- a follow-up by mkeller234 about implementation. You might want to look at post #7 and following ones about the quality of shifting of Campy derailleurs with longer cages -- I'm no expert.
I could scan them, verify critical dimensions (thickness, hole sizes and distances between them) with a dial caliper, draw them up in CAD, and send you a DXF or PDF vector file (either is a format that most fabricators can use). 1/8" plate is easy enough to find, I don't remember if Henry III was using a particular alloy, but whatever it was might be available from McMaster-Carr. I trawled through both threads linked-to below without ever seeing alloy info, nor thickness. Henry III was working in both aluminum and stainless steel plate. I know the plates I got are aluminum, but I'm not sure of the thickess without getting them out of my stash. If I were to try this out, I'd source some harder aluminum alloy than 6061, but that's just a seat-of-the-pants recommendation.
Here are a couple BF threads on this topic
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...started-1.html -- the original by Henry III (who hasn't posted on BF since December 2020), and you might want to look at the post #50 on page 2, concerning possible limitations and #57 (threading of pivot bolt on a NR) & #58 (pulley bolt considerations), #87, #91
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...lly-cages.html -- a follow-up by mkeller234 about implementation. You might want to look at post #7 and following ones about the quality of shifting of Campy derailleurs with longer cages -- I'm no expert.
#12
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There were factory long cage mechs available in the 80s. Not as elegant as Campy’s high end equipment but pretty well made.
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I have a couple Shimano 500gs long cage derailleurs, and wonder if they are also compatible.
Last edited by bark_eater; 09-25-22 at 02:35 PM.
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Just offering my opinion it would be a shame to breakup a Shimano Crane Derailleur especially a GS version. They are a better made, better shifting and more rare than the Campagnolo one you want to modify. People who are assembling 1st generation Dura Ace groups are always on the lookout for nice Crane derailleurs.
#15
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...Shimano made a couple of long cage versions that were contemporary with Crane GS, both Titlist GS and Tourney GS. The Titlist was cheaper, had less attention to finish, and can usually be found (on E-bay at least) selling for less money. Crane long cage has gotten pretty pricey for using as a parts derailleur. The cages look similar, but I've never taken one off. They all work about the same on the bicycles I've had them on.
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@ToniH.
There are a lot of workarounds here, many far more functional than hacking the original.
I would not butcher that original Record, crappy though they may be, you don't really ever want to have to look for a good one if you need it.
There are a lot of workarounds here, many far more functional than hacking the original.
I would not butcher that original Record, crappy though they may be, you don't really ever want to have to look for a good one if you need it.
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FWIW, the Shimano Titlist GS is identical to the Crane GS, except with a steel pulley cage instead of aluminum. And the Schwinn GT300 LeTour was a re-badged Crane GS. So a cage from either of those ought to work as well.
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The nice thing about the proposed Shimano cage swap is that it does not involve modifying the original Record derailleur, just some slight modifications to the Shimano cage. Keep the original Record pulley cage, and restoring the derailleur to its original state is just a cage-swap away.
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FWIW, there's an overpriced Campagnolo Euclid on the Sacramento craigslist, in bike parts. No affiliation, just thought someone might feel like negotiating. 🙂
#20
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Sharp-eyed viewers may have noticed that the mech in the pic ToniH. posted is shifting to a 34t freewheel. Don't expect to get that range from your Record just by putting a GS cage on it. Though it might work, the one in the pic has been hybridized. The upper knuckle is a from a "Sport" (not Gran Sport), the single-pulley mech intended for 3-speed city bikes. That upper knuckle has a spring, so grafting (riveting) it onto the Record parallelogram arms makes a double-spring shifter, equivalent to the Simplex of that era. Vastly increases the range, even with the original Record pulley cage. I fact for the bike that's on, I went back to the Record cage, even though I'm using a wide-range triple in front (20t difference) and a 14-30 freewheel. The short cage has enough wrap to reach all 15 gears.
Here are pics of it handling the extremes, big-big and small-small:
I don't know what size freewheel you can get with the non-hybridized Record by swapping the cage to GS. Probably a little bigger than with the stock cage, but the main advantage will be letting you use a wider range of chainrings. The Record was intended for a narrow range up front, typically only 3 or 4 teeth, the half-step you get with a racing size freewheel of that era. The GS cage will allow you to use a triple or wide-range double.
Note I do not recommend chopping up Records and Sports and Frankensteining them together. This was a "fun" exercise in some ways, but also a total PITA. And just about any touring mech will work better with much less cursing and excess stomach acid. Oh and for the record (no pun intended), both the "organ donors" were dead. The Record had a broken top knuckle, and the Sport had a twisted cage, so no working mechs were sacrificed.
FYI I also have a hybridized Gran Sport, the earlier bronze-steel version. The Sport upper knuckle fits those too.
Mark B
Here are pics of it handling the extremes, big-big and small-small:
I don't know what size freewheel you can get with the non-hybridized Record by swapping the cage to GS. Probably a little bigger than with the stock cage, but the main advantage will be letting you use a wider range of chainrings. The Record was intended for a narrow range up front, typically only 3 or 4 teeth, the half-step you get with a racing size freewheel of that era. The GS cage will allow you to use a triple or wide-range double.
Note I do not recommend chopping up Records and Sports and Frankensteining them together. This was a "fun" exercise in some ways, but also a total PITA. And just about any touring mech will work better with much less cursing and excess stomach acid. Oh and for the record (no pun intended), both the "organ donors" were dead. The Record had a broken top knuckle, and the Sport had a twisted cage, so no working mechs were sacrificed.
FYI I also have a hybridized Gran Sport, the earlier bronze-steel version. The Sport upper knuckle fits those too.
Mark B
Last edited by bulgie; 09-25-22 at 07:54 PM.
#21
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Sharp-eyed viewers may have noticed that the mech in the pic ToniH. posted is shifting to a 34t freewheel. Don't expect to get that range from your Record just by putting a GS cage on it. Though it might work, the one in the pic has been hybridized. The upper knuckle is a from a "Sport" (not Gran Sport), the single-pulley mech intended for 3-speed city bikes. That upper knuckle has a spring, so grafting (riveting) it onto the Record parallelogram arms makes a double-spring shifter, equivalent to the Simplex of that era. Vastly increases the range, even with the original Record pulley cage. I fact for the bike that's on, I went back to the Record cage, even though I'm using a wide-range triple in front (20t difference) and a 14-30 freewheel. The short cage has enough wrap to reach all 15 gears.
Here are pics of it handling the extremes, big-big and small-small:
I don't know what size freewheel you can get with the non-hybridized Record by swapping the cage to GS. Probably a little bigger than with the stock cage, but the main advantage will be letting you use a wider range of chainrings. The Record was intended for a narrow range up front, typically only 3 or 4 teeth, the half-step you get with a racing size freewheel of that era. The GS cage will allow you to use a triple or wide-range double.
Note I do not recommend chopping up Records and Sports and Frankensteining them together. This was a "fun" exercise in some ways, but also a total PITA. And just about any touring mech will work better with much less cursing and excess stomach acid. Oh and for the record (no pun intended), both the "organ donors" were dead. The Record had a broken top knuckle, and the Sport had a twisted cage, so no working mechs were sacrificed.
FYI I also have a hybridized Gran Sport, the earlier bronze-steel version. The Sport upper knuckle fits those too.
Mark B
Here are pics of it handling the extremes, big-big and small-small:
I don't know what size freewheel you can get with the non-hybridized Record by swapping the cage to GS. Probably a little bigger than with the stock cage, but the main advantage will be letting you use a wider range of chainrings. The Record was intended for a narrow range up front, typically only 3 or 4 teeth, the half-step you get with a racing size freewheel of that era. The GS cage will allow you to use a triple or wide-range double.
Note I do not recommend chopping up Records and Sports and Frankensteining them together. This was a "fun" exercise in some ways, but also a total PITA. And just about any touring mech will work better with much less cursing and excess stomach acid. Oh and for the record (no pun intended), both the "organ donors" were dead. The Record had a broken top knuckle, and the Sport had a twisted cage, so no working mechs were sacrificed.
FYI I also have a hybridized Gran Sport, the earlier bronze-steel version. The Sport upper knuckle fits those too.
Mark B
I know this whole thing does not make any sense. And there would be cheaper, better working and overall more sane options for derailleur. But for me big part of the hobby is trying some weird things like this. Its fun, and somehow I like the idea to keep the original derailleursystem as close to how it was originally.
#23
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That inner cage plate is mounted upside down!
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