Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Harassment of cyclists in New Jersey

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Harassment of cyclists in New Jersey

Old 04-23-21, 01:35 PM
  #51  
DangerousDanR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Fargo ND
Posts: 375

Bikes: Lynskey R350, Ritchey Breakaway, Ritchey Double Switchback, Lynskey Ridgeline, ICAN Fatbike

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked 184 Times in 104 Posts
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Exactly. "Spoiled brats". "Dumb kids". Disrespectful, just like some other spoiled kids you got mad at. That's really what you folks are upset about. So much so that you went to the trouble to compile a misleading timeline of misdeeds, a pretty pathetic list of criminal behavior even if you took it at face value (not to say anyone should)

Wrong side when there was no traffic. Half the commuters in this forum admit to doing that. I could go on but I won't, because all of that completely missed the point.

The takeaway here is that repressive ordinances are just fine with some bike forum members, as long as they're used as a pretext for giving some jerk his comeuppance. Even better if it's a kid.
1) Never once have I supported bicycle licensing because it is always a pretext to put money in government coffers with absolutely zero benefit to the licensee.
2) This group of kids clearly are riding in the oncoming traffic lane when there is oncoming traffic on several occasions.
3) My term "misdemeanor dumbass" refers to things that are so petty that they should result in a simple warning. And that is what happened in this case.
4) Their riding on the MUP clearly forced other users into the wall.
5) Claiming "racism" for everything and anything dilutes the value of the term when there is genuine incident.
6) For me the desired outcome would be that these kids find a safe venue to further hone their fairly impressive bicycle handling skills. It looks like Rhaway Avenue Park which is about 10 miles from their home town of Edison has a fairly nice facility. Or the Jersey Exposition Center if they just want to ride trails off roads. Or ride the roads, but not in a dangerous manner.
DangerousDanR is online now  
Likes For DangerousDanR:
Old 04-23-21, 02:27 PM
  #52  
wphamilton
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2933 Post(s)
Liked 336 Times in 224 Posts
Originally Posted by DangerousDanR View Post
1)
3) My term "misdemeanor dumbass" refers to things that are so petty that they should result in a simple warning. And that is what happened in this case.
That's what I've been saying. Warn them. Using a pretext to arrest them is abusive.

5) Claiming "racism" for everything and anything dilutes the value of the term when there is genuine incident.
Did I claim racism?
wphamilton is offline  
Old 04-23-21, 03:37 PM
  #53  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 5,034
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4908 Post(s)
Liked 7,063 Times in 3,060 Posts
The cops didn't seem at all interested in cuffing these kids and impounding their bikes until the kids failed to be submissive enough. Which is pretty typical cop behavior, in my experience.

The funniest part of the video is at the end, when one of the cops is telling the kids, "You think I don't have better things to do?" When the answer is clearly no, she didn't have anything better to do -- if she had, she wouldn't have been hassling those kids.

Last edited by Koyote; 04-23-21 at 04:06 PM.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 04-24-21, 05:00 AM
  #54  
downhillmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1,644
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 957 Post(s)
Liked 749 Times in 393 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
The cops didn't seem at all interested in cuffing these kids and impounding their bikes until the kids failed to be submissive enough. Which is pretty typical cop behavior, in my experience.

The funniest part of the video is at the end, when one of the cops is telling the kids, "You think I don't have better things to do?" When the answer is clearly no, she didn't have anything better to do -- if she had, she wouldn't have been hassling those kids.
So much intelligent legal analysis
downhillmaster is offline  
Old 04-24-21, 06:36 AM
  #55  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 5,034
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4908 Post(s)
Liked 7,063 Times in 3,060 Posts
Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
So much intelligent legal analysis
It's just my view of the situation; I never claimed any special insight.

And I can acknowledge that others may watch the same video and reach different conclusions without accusing them of ignorance. After all, the kids were not blameless, either.
Koyote is offline  
Old 04-24-21, 07:15 AM
  #56  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,001
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3321 Post(s)
Liked 812 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
The takeaway here is that repressive ordinances are just fine with some bike forum members, as long as they're used as a pretext for giving some jerk his comeuppance. Even better if it's a kid.
You are either imagining this or making it up.

​​​​​​No one here suggested bicycle licences were "fine".

I said they were dumb. One can't be any clearer than that.

And you still managed to get it wrong.
njkayaker is offline  
Likes For njkayaker:
Old 04-24-21, 09:37 AM
  #57  
Moe Zhoost
Half way there
 
Moe Zhoost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,644

Bikes: Many, and the list changes frequently

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times in 408 Posts
Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
Having laws that are enforced only at the convenience of the police when it serves their ends seems like a very poor practice.
Our world is full of laws and regulations that attempt to control behaviour through some seemingly unrelated artifice. This is usually intentional to give the authorities leverage when they feel that it should be applied. I won't say that such strategies are horrible; I think they can be applied in an effective and fair manner. However there are many times when they are used too frequently and for the wrong reasons.

Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
Hard for anyone to have much respect for a system that treats the law in so capricious a fashion.
We have what we have. Remember that the folks who brought you such laws were voted into office by a majority of your neighbours.
Moe Zhoost is offline  
Likes For Moe Zhoost:
Old 04-24-21, 03:37 PM
  #58  
Rick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 909
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 245 Times in 158 Posts
A license to ride a bicycle! Go to hell Perth Amboy. If the kids were intentionally breaking laws, they should be charged with that crime. Being told to ride on the sidewalk is a really bad idea. According to a female officer they were riding on the wrong side of the road. That is illegal and dangerous to them and anybody else entering the road. The Police likely were following up on a complaint. If I drove my car against traffic would the police confiscate my car. I would like to see the police be honest in there dealings with people on bicycles. Evidently this is to much to ask.
Rick is offline  
Likes For Rick:
Old 04-24-21, 07:34 PM
  #59  
downhillmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1,644
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 957 Post(s)
Liked 749 Times in 393 Posts
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
A license to ride a bicycle! Go to hell Perth Amboy. If the kids were intentionally breaking laws, they should be charged with that crime. Being told to ride on the sidewalk is a really bad idea. According to a female officer they were riding on the wrong side of the road. That is illegal and dangerous to them and anybody else entering the road. The Police likely were following up on a complaint. If I drove my car against traffic would the police confiscate my car. I would like to see the police be honest in there dealings with people on bicycles. Evidently this is to much to ask.
Yes. Of course.
If you intentionally drove against traffic in your car and then argued with the police that pulled you over, your car would get confiscated/impounded.
What part of that can you not comprehend?
downhillmaster is offline  
Old 04-24-21, 07:52 PM
  #60  
Rick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 909
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 245 Times in 158 Posts
Yes. Of course.
If you intentionally drove against traffic in your car and then argued with the police that pulled you over, your car would get confiscated/impounded.
What part of that can you not comprehend?
I understand very well. I just want the rant that went on without all the info to wake up. The kids were being dangerous. They needed to be approached by the police. The police were right to approach them, but did not explain the law they were actually breaking. The get out of the road approach that the police took is typical of the uneducated, ignorance I have seen toward people riding bicycles all my life.
Rick is offline  
Likes For Rick:
Old 04-25-21, 06:56 PM
  #61  
wphamilton
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2933 Post(s)
Liked 336 Times in 224 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
Our world is full of laws and regulations that attempt to control behaviour through some seemingly unrelated artifice. This is usually intentional to give the authorities leverage when they feel that it should be applied. I won't say that such strategies are horrible; I think they can be applied in an effective and fair manner. However there are many times when they are used too frequently and for the wrong reasons.



We have what we have. Remember that the folks who brought you such laws were voted into office by a majority of your neighbours.
There is no legitimate theory of jurisprudence to support this idea, that you have laws to control behaviors unrelated to the law. Any "authority" who makes a habit of applying "leverage" as "they feel" when the behavior is outside of the legal framework is engaging in textbook abuse of office. He needs to be stripped of office and, in egregious cases, prosecuted for abuse of power.

And to the poster who opines that I made it up, here is an explicit example of someone who thinks repressive ordinances are fine as a pretext to give someone a comeuppance when the law doesn't or isn't applied.

Last edited by wphamilton; 04-25-21 at 06:59 PM.
wphamilton is offline  
Likes For wphamilton:
Old 04-25-21, 07:06 PM
  #62  
jon c. 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,200
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 426 Times in 233 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post

We have what we have. Remember that the folks who brought you such laws were voted into office by a majority of your neighbours.
Progress in human society moves at a glacial pace.
jon c. is offline  
Old 04-25-21, 07:48 PM
  #63  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 5,034
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4908 Post(s)
Liked 7,063 Times in 3,060 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
Our world is full of laws and regulations that attempt to control behaviour through some seemingly unrelated artifice. This is usually intentional to give the authorities leverage when they feel that it should be applied. I won't say that such strategies are horrible; I think they can be applied in an effective and fair manner. However there are many times when they are used too frequently and for the wrong reasons.
You do realize that such laws would violate the Fourth Amendment, right? And so there probably aren't very many of them.

Now, if you want to adjust this argument, you could suggest that police sometimes misuse their authority to try to control people's behavior even when they have no legal authority to do so.
Koyote is offline  
Old 04-26-21, 11:45 AM
  #64  
AlanO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 23 Posts
Had they actually obeyed traffic laws the police would not have shown up. Stupid kids could have killed someone.
AlanO is offline  
Likes For AlanO:
Old 04-26-21, 11:56 AM
  #65  
downhillmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1,644
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 957 Post(s)
Liked 749 Times in 393 Posts
Originally Posted by AlanO View Post
Had they actually obeyed traffic laws the police would not have shown up. Stupid kids could have killed someone.
Careful. Some people in this thread do not appreciate common sense and think that nothing was amiss because the kids were just acting like jerks
downhillmaster is offline  
Likes For downhillmaster:
Old 04-26-21, 01:08 PM
  #66  
BadGrandma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: THE belly-button of Ohio
Posts: 90

Bikes: Surly Cross, Franklin tandem, Culprit Jr., BMX racer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 28 Posts
Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
You should maybe watch an entire video before you post it
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Police officers in Perth Amboy, New Jersey confiscated bikes and placed at least one rider in custody. Their crime: riding through town without city-issued bike license tags. The riders were not residents of Perth Amboy.

https://www.rawstory.com/riding-bike...-license-tags/
Their crimes are they are dangerous dbags while riding in the streets and on the MUP's. Their crimes have already been well explained in the other posts.
These are kids? They look pretty big and hairy to me.
About their "amazing skills"- my nine-year-old grandson does them, when he thinks he can get away with that crap.
As for the license, I'm all for it on a statewide basis, otherwise I'd just hit them for obstructing traffic.
And you don't want to know what I did as a child.
BadGrandma is offline  
Likes For BadGrandma:
Old 04-26-21, 03:49 PM
  #67  
StanSeven
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Delaware shore
Posts: 13,449

Bikes: Cervelo C5, Guru Photon, Waterford, Specialized CX

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 944 Post(s)
Liked 1,103 Times in 799 Posts
Discussions are moving to fighting. How about taming it down some before it gets too personal? Thanks
StanSeven is online now  
Old 04-26-21, 05:23 PM
  #68  
Moe Zhoost
Half way there
 
Moe Zhoost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,644

Bikes: Many, and the list changes frequently

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times in 408 Posts
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
There is no legitimate theory of jurisprudence to support this idea, that you have laws to control behaviors unrelated to the law. Any "authority" who makes a habit of applying "leverage" as "they feel" when the behavior is outside of the legal framework is engaging in textbook abuse of office. He needs to be stripped of office and, in egregious cases, prosecuted for abuse of power.
Well there are theories of law, and then there is reality. Do you really think that it is rare that the intent of the law is unrelated to its language? Right or wrong, it's human nature to employ ruses to achieve an outcome, and legislators are not so honorable to resist. For example, jaywalking laws were not written with the intent to protect pedestrians,. One only has to look at the many recent controversial laws in many states to see that this is the norm.

Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
And to the poster who opines that I made it up, here is an explicit example of someone who thinks repressive ordinances are fine as a pretext to give someone a comeuppance when the law doesn't or isn't applied.
You really ought not to make assumptions, especially when it borders on an ad hominem attack. You assume that I support the use of such laws; however I condemn them as strongly as you, mate. I think the use of such artifice in legislation is an outright cowardly way to govern. The fact that sometimes those strategies are effective may make them somewhat acceptable, but it does not make them less bogus.
Moe Zhoost is offline  
Old 04-26-21, 05:35 PM
  #69  
Moe Zhoost
Half way there
 
Moe Zhoost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,644

Bikes: Many, and the list changes frequently

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times in 408 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
You do realize that such laws would violate the Fourth Amendment, right? And so there probably aren't very many of them..
Undoubtedly many laws are overturned for this reason. How many more never come before the courts?

Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Now, if you want to adjust this argument, you could suggest that police sometimes misuse their authority to try to control people's behavior even when they have no legal authority to do so.
Did the police in this video not have legal authority to do what they did? I'll answer that for you:

§ 158-9 Violations and penalties.
[Amended 5-21-1991 by Ord. No. 648.91]

A. Any bicycle being operated or propelled in violation of any of the provisions of this chapter, upon the personal observation of a law enforcement officer, is subject to immediate confiscation. A confiscated bicycle shall be returned upon payment of any fine imposed or upon any final adjudication.
Moe Zhoost is offline  
Old 04-26-21, 07:03 PM
  #70  
stuff shredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 58

Bikes: 2020 S-Works Tarmac - Sagan Edition /// 2016 Intense Tracer T275C ///

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked 53 Times in 28 Posts
This one is pretty clear to me.
The kids were riding in a manner that would get any auto driver arrested. Wheelies? No big deal. Riding on the wrong side of the road playing chicken with cars? THat's an issue. Running from the police and endangering other road users? THat's an issue.

There were several cop cars involved in the initial chase. The boys were lucky to have stopped for one of the officers that was willing to let them go without applying the law (reckless driving, no license, etc.. things that WOULD get an auto driver a tix) as long as the kids listened to his advice.

After the other cops arrived, it's unfortunate that the fella started to run his piehole. He ruined the chance for generosity, for the cops to look the other way from the infractions. People need to learn when not to run their mouth.

I teach my boys to stand up for what they believe, but also be smart about it. I learned almost the exact same lesson when I was about 14 and got my BMX bike confiscated. I remember thinking it so funny how my buddy said to the cop, "but your trunk will get all muddy!" We laughed until we explained to our fathers what happened. It was a good lesson for me, and hopefully it will be a good lesson for these boys. Belligerently arguing with the cops will NEVER end well for you, as we've seen time and time again. Learn the lesson young. File a formal complaint if you feel you've been wronged.

Anyway, the boys had ticketable offenses and are lucky just a few had bikes impounded. Hopefully they'll be wiser as a result

EDIT: I checked out the video kid's YouTube channel. They have videos of riding wheelies in the mall and through shopping stores. Not cool. Has had several run-ins with the police, and doesn't seem to be learning

Last edited by stuff shredman; 04-26-21 at 07:30 PM.
stuff shredman is offline  
Likes For stuff shredman:
Old 04-26-21, 07:35 PM
  #71  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 5,034
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4908 Post(s)
Liked 7,063 Times in 3,060 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
Undoubtedly many laws are overturned for this reason. How many more never come before the courts?


Did the police in this video not have legal authority to do what they did? I'll answer that for you:

§ 158-9 Violations and penalties.
[Amended 5-21-1991 by Ord. No. 648.91]

A. Any bicycle being operated or propelled in violation of any of the provisions of this chapter, upon the personal observation of a law enforcement officer, is subject to immediate confiscation. A confiscated bicycle shall be returned upon payment of any fine imposed or upon any final adjudication.
You've confused me with the people who think that a bunch of bike-riding kids in New Jersey are worth arguing over. I'm merely here because I find it amusing to watch people get lathered up over something so trivial.

I actually just wanted to bring this thing called the "Bill of Rights" to your attention.
Koyote is offline  
Old 04-26-21, 08:11 PM
  #72  
livedarklions
High Performance Noodler
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 12,324

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6443 Post(s)
Liked 6,088 Times in 3,437 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
Undoubtedly many laws are overturned for this reason. How many more never come before the courts?


Did the police in this video not have legal authority to do what they did? I'll answer that for you:

§ 158-9 Violations and penalties.
[Amended 5-21-1991 by Ord. No. 648.91]

A. Any bicycle being operated or propelled in violation of any of the provisions of this chapter, upon the personal observation of a law enforcement officer, is subject to immediate confiscation. A confiscated bicycle shall be returned upon payment of any fine imposed or upon any final adjudication.

Guess I missed the part that justified the handcuffing.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 04-26-21, 09:12 PM
  #73  
downhillmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1,644
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 957 Post(s)
Liked 749 Times in 393 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Guess I missed the part that justified the handcuffing.
Nope.
I don’t think you missed it.
You simply chose to ignore it for your lost cause
downhillmaster is offline  
Old 04-26-21, 09:20 PM
  #74  
Hondo Gravel
Life Feeds On Life
 
Hondo Gravel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Hondo,Texas
Posts: 2,111

Bikes: Too many Motobecanes

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2747 Post(s)
Liked 2,913 Times in 1,890 Posts
Glad I ride in rural Texas nobody cares about bike riders and are safe and courteous. Though I ride where there is no through traffic that may be the difference. And county cops don’t give a flip about people riding their bikes. It is never an issue.
Hondo Gravel is offline  
Old 04-27-21, 05:40 AM
  #75  
wphamilton
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2933 Post(s)
Liked 336 Times in 224 Posts
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost View Post
Well there are theories of law, and then there is reality. Do you really think that it is rare that the intent of the law is unrelated to its language? Right or wrong, it's human nature to employ ruses to achieve an outcome, and legislators are not so honorable to resist. For example, jaywalking laws were not written with the intent to protect pedestrians,..
Theory of jurisprudence IS the reality of courts. Laws must be specific and explicit in what they prohibit for example, otherwise they are challenged in court as illegal and the cases fail.

Jaywalking laws were intended to keep traffic moving smoothly. That's how jaywalking laws were intended and are applied, and in fact there are exceptions in many jurisdictions allowing crossings at places where it does not disrupt traffic. That's not a good example of a ruse to punish something else.
wphamilton is offline  
Likes For wphamilton:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.