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New bikes, and the creeping cost of entry to our favorite sport

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New bikes, and the creeping cost of entry to our favorite sport

Old 05-02-21, 06:46 AM
  #251  
rekmeyata
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
I donít recall reading any posts like thisÖ In fact, quite the opposite: I read posts from people who are trying to figure out how to replace a part and save an old bike.
I've actually read posts like that, I do frequent other forums, but I think I remember hearing of people doing that on this one, this is why some guys have a lot of bikes in their stable.
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Old 05-02-21, 09:07 AM
  #252  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
The frame was Tenax, which was Columbus brand Cro Moly. Maybe I should have kept the Schwinn and figured out a way to make it work. Maybe a shorter stem, and some new bars might have done the trick. Or kept as it and my son could have grown into it. But that was years ago. Better that someone else got a chance to enjoy it, and I am happy with my Salsa Casserol, which is the best bike I have ever owned, even if the frame is generic Taiwan made Cro Moly instead of Columbus. Even though I wanted to love friction shifting, in the end, I just prefer indexed shifting, and having the controls at my fingertips rather than on the downtube.
Casseroll is an awesome, underrated/overlooked bike IMO. Iím really bummed Salsa discontinued it.

Do you have the 1st gen (with caliper brakes) or the 2nd gen (with cantis)?

Iíve got a 1st gen (wife rides it now), and I find the ride quality top notch, regardless of the type of steel they used.
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Old 05-02-21, 10:10 AM
  #253  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
Give me a break. If you read my original post, my concern isn't for myself. I will pay what I have to for the quality I want. So this isn't about me. And it isn't about blaming it on greedy capitalists, though that might be a factor here. This is about those looking to get into this game. And no, the Trek and Specialized you linked to are not counter examples. They are indeed examples of my original point.
As for the economics lesson, thank you, but I do not believe that markets are perfect. There are supply interruptions, and there is short term profit seeking that may hurt the industry in the long run.
so basically I got ripped off ?
paid 700$ For a specialized entry level roll sport
tourney shimano on it no disc brakes 7 speed ?!
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Old 05-02-21, 10:11 AM
  #254  
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Specialized roll

Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
Give me a break. If you read my original post, my concern isn't for myself. I will pay what I have to for the quality I want. So this isn't about me. And it isn't about blaming it on greedy capitalists, though that might be a factor here. This is about those looking to get into this game. And no, the Trek and Specialized you linked to are not counter examples. They are indeed examples of my original point.
As for the economics lesson, thank you, but I do not believe that markets are perfect. There are supply interruptions, and there is short term profit seeking that may hurt the industry in the long run.
so basically I got ripped off ?
paid 700$ For a specialized entry level roll sport
tourney shimano on it no disc brakes 7 speed ?!
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Old 05-02-21, 10:17 AM
  #255  
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Rolls sport

Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
It isn't what I want to pay. I do not buy entry level bikes. It is what I see as good value and not good value for newcomers to our sport. And in my mind, a $700 bike with Tourney level components is not good value.
looks like I got ripped off paid 700$ for entry level roll sport 2021 tourney and no disc brakes 7 speed ?!
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Old 05-02-21, 10:20 AM
  #256  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
This is a variation on a theme I see from time to time. I am not really concerned for myself, as I have a nice bike that I have invested in new wheels, and have otherwise maintained over the years.
I have seen a creep up in new bike prices in recent years. Where as if you asked me 5 or 6 years ago, what it the minimum price to pay for a good basic bike for al around use, such as neighborhood ride, MUPs, light off road, or even group or charity rides of 50 miles or less, I would have said, $400 to $500. Today, I would say $700 to $800. And I don't really like telling people this. Often a beginner will be looking for not one, but maybe two bikes. One for themselves, and one for a spouse. So where as in the past, I would have said, you can probably get started for $1,000 or less, now that price is almost $2,000, for two people.

So what happened? Is it tariffs? Corporate greed? Demand for bikes boosted by the pandemic while supply chain got interrupted last year?
Hard to say.
One thing I have noticed with the big brands is pushing disc brakes, which is pushing up the price of the entry level, while leaving the budget bikes without disc brakes also seriously under spec'd. For example, the Trek FX1 retails for $500, but has a 7 speed freewheel. Not so long ago, you could get an FX 7.2 with 8 speed freehub for around $500, and Giant made an 8 speed Escape 2 for $460, and you could even get a carbon fork 9 speed Escape 1 for $650.
Today, if you want an 8 speed Trek or Giant (or any other major brand), you have to get one with disc brakes, and it will cost you $700. If you want carbon fork, or 9 speed, you are talking about $800 to $900.

I find this frustrating not so much for a bike enthusiast like myself, but for those looking to get into the sport. The entry level price seems high for what you are getting, especially compared to just a few years ago. It would literally cost the major brands a couple of bucks per unit to offer a $500 bike with an 8 speed freehub and cassette over the barely better than department store bike 7 speed freewheel. And, for $700, I hate to seem like a Luddite, but better wheels, and drivetrain seem like a better thing to offer the customer at that price point than disc brakes.

So to put a finer point on this, I think $500 is a reasonable entry point into the sport for a good, basic bike. But is it too much to ask that the manufacturers at least equip said bike with a freehub, and decent drivetrain components?
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
I got one roll sport for my fiancť I m new to biking so I donít know much paid roll sport entry level 700$ plus taxes etc almost 760$-770$ and I still need a bike for myself thank god I found this forum at least I m looking for myself not to make same mistakes . So did I get ripped off with this purchase she likes it it looks high end bike compare to many but is it ?
so shimano tourney cheap stuff ?! 7 speed no good ? Entry level bike for 700$ too much I think for sure
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Old 05-02-21, 10:32 AM
  #257  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
It is harder to keep track of Cannondale's old specs because they don't archive it like Trek does. But according to this website, Cannondale has downgraded the Quick 6 from just 2 years ago, when the Quick 6 had a Shimano 9 speed drivetrain, and now it is downgraded to 7 speed, and Microshift 7 speed at that. https://99spokes.com/bikes/cannondale/2019/quick-6

If you wanted to make a point of a brand offering good value, IMO, Kona is a better example. Their Dew plus commuter in 2015 was a 3 x 8, and sold for a little under $700. Today's Dew Plus has 1 x 10 drivetrain, and 650b tires, and through axles instead of quick release. now that is good value for the money. Generic 7 speed freewheel for $650 or Tourney 7 speed for $700 is not.
Even so, that is still a lot of money for entry level.
is IMO also a brand ?
kona dew plus is now 779$ on their website if you get it by local shop they ll add extras like assembly etc at least another 100$ They will add so would be almost 900$ bike .
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Old 05-02-21, 10:43 AM
  #258  
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Bike shops don't add for assembly, that comes out of the retail price. If anyone is doing that, it's just price gouging.
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Old 05-02-21, 11:22 AM
  #259  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Casseroll is an awesome, underrated/overlooked bike IMO. I’m really bummed Salsa discontinued it.

Do you have the 1st gen (with caliper brakes) or the 2nd gen (with cantis)?

I’ve got a 1st gen (wife rides it now), and I find the ride quality top notch, regardless of the type of steel they used.
Cantis. Likely my Salsa is a 2nd Gen bike. I have been very happy with it. There are a lot of different ways you can set it up.

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Old 05-02-21, 11:24 AM
  #260  
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Originally Posted by utku1985 View Post
is IMO also a brand ?
kona dew plus is now 779$ on their website if you get it by local shop they ll add extras like assembly etc at least another 100$ They will add so would be almost 900$ bike .
Nope. The retail price should include assembly, adjustments, even free tuneups for 1 to 2 years after purchase.
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Old 05-02-21, 11:26 AM
  #261  
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Originally Posted by utku1985 View Post
I got one roll sport for my fiancť I m new to biking so I don’t know much paid roll sport entry level 700$ plus taxes etc almost 760$-770$ and I still need a bike for myself thank god I found this forum at least I m looking for myself not to make same mistakes . So did I get ripped off with this purchase she likes it it looks high end bike compare to many but is it ?
so shimano tourney cheap stuff ?! 7 speed no good ? Entry level bike for 700$ too much I think for sure
Tourney is pretty cheap stuff. Not terrible, but not what I would expect of a premium brand like Specialized. . And I don't think $700 for 7 speed Tourney is a good value.

It isn't that 7 speed is no good, but rather, it is very old technology. My 1997 Bianchi had 7 speed. That was almost a quarter century ago. While most people can certainly get by with 7 speeds, the level of quality of modern 7 speeds has nowhere to go but down, as nobody is introducing higher quality 7 speed components. So for example, my 1997 bike with 7 speed was middle of the road technology then, and mid level quality. In those days, something like Tourney or Altus was 6 speed, followed by Acera, and STX, which was 7 speed, followed by Deore and above, which was 8 speed. Fast forward to today and among hybrids and mountain bikes, 7 speed tourney is the lowest of the low for Shimano. (there are some cheaper brands, like Microshift that also sell product, and actually some brands sell microshift instead of Shimano). Altus is the next up, and that is usually 8 speed. That is followed by Acera and Alivio, which are 9 speed. Deore and above are 10 and 11 speed. I do not expect modern entry level bikes to be 10 or 11 speed, but 8 or 9 speed? Sure, you bet I do.

As I have said earlier in this thread, I thought 7 speed was on the way out 10 years ago, as the only bikes that had them were the most entry level, usually bikes selling for less than $400.. But brands like Specialized, Cannondale, Giant and Trek are putting entry level Tourney on $700, even $750 bikes which IMO is greedy. It would literally cost them a couple of bucks more to put 8 speed components on those bikes. Where as the cost to you, the consumer to upgrade from 7 speeds to 8 speed is a couple of hundred bucks at least as you likely would need a new back wheel, cassette, derailleur and shifter. At that cost, if you wanted to upgrade the drivetrain, you would need to think long and hard about it as some might say you might as well start over and just buy a better bike.

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Old 05-02-21, 02:10 PM
  #262  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
Nope. The retail price should include assembly, adjustments, even free tuneups for 1 to 2 years after purchase.
it doesnít include 1 year free tune ups assembly also but price still higher then website or maybe I m mistaken
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Old 05-02-21, 02:11 PM
  #263  
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Originally Posted by utku1985 View Post
it doesnít include 1 year free tune ups assembly also but price still higher then website or maybe I m mistaken
it does include* 1 year tune up
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Old 05-02-21, 02:37 PM
  #264  
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Originally Posted by utku1985 View Post
so basically I got ripped off ?
paid 700$ For a specialized entry level roll sport
tourney shimano on it no disc brakes 7 speed ?!
This entire thread is based on a flawed premise, so donít let it make you dissatisfied with your new bike. Just ride it!
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Old 05-02-21, 05:40 PM
  #265  
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Originally Posted by utku1985 View Post
I got one roll sport for my fiancť I m new to biking so I donít know much paid roll sport entry level 700$ plus taxes etc almost 760$-770$ and I still need a bike for myself thank god I found this forum at least I m looking for myself not to make same mistakes . So did I get ripped off with this purchase she likes it it looks high end bike compare to many but is it ?
so shimano tourney cheap stuff ?! 7 speed no good ? Entry level bike for 700$ too much I think for sure

Seven speeds is perfectly reasonable for the Roll. It's a nice bike, well-built, and it's designed to be comfortable. If your fiance is enjoying it, it's worth the $700 plus taxes. Yes, you could pay less for a seven speed, but it wouldn't be anything like a Roll, and she probably wouldn't like it.
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Old 05-02-21, 07:44 PM
  #266  
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Originally Posted by utku1985 View Post
looks like I got ripped off paid 700$ for entry level roll sport 2021 tourney and no disc brakes 7 speed ?!
By the way, it sure looks to me like the Roll Sport does have disc brakes, and an Altus (not Tourney) rear derailleur.

And to reiterate, this thread was started by a poster who understands little about the marketplace. $700 for your Roll Sport is just fine, esp if your fiance likes the bike. And frankly, finding anything right now is a victory.
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Old 05-03-21, 12:18 PM
  #267  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
By the way, it sure looks to me like the Roll Sport does have disc brakes, and an Altus (not Tourney) rear derailleur.

And to reiterate, this thread was started by a poster who understands little about the marketplace. $700 for your Roll Sport is just fine, esp if your fiance likes the bike. And frankly, finding anything right now is a victory.
Knock off the ad hominem attacks. You have the right to your opinion, but when you get into the realm of personal attacks, keep it to yourself.
Shifting gears, so to speak would you buy 7 speed Tourney for yourself? I hear a lot of people say Tourney is fine for entry level, but would you buy it for yourself or recommend it to your friends?

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Old 05-03-21, 12:26 PM
  #268  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
Knock off the ad hominem attacks. You have the right to your opinion, but when you get into the realm of personal attacks, keep it to yourself.
But, would you buy 7 speed Tourney for yourself?
That's not an ad hominem attack. My conclusion is based entirely on the faulty arguments you've made through this entire thread.

To answer your question: I actually do own a Roll, but mine is much older (2012 or so) and even cheaper than the poster's. It retailed for $550 back then. It does not have Tourney derailleurs - in fact, it has NO derailleurs. And it was a bargain. A very good bike.
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Old 05-03-21, 12:30 PM
  #269  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
That's not an ad hominem attack. My conclusion is based entirely on the faulty arguments you've made through this entire thread.

To answer your question: I actually do own a Roll, but mine is much older (2012 or so) and even cheaper than the poster's. It retailed for $550 back then. It does not have Tourney derailleurs - in fact, it has NO derailleurs. And it was a bargain. A very good bike.
You didn't answer the question. Would you pay $700 for a 7 speed bike with a freewheel?
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Old 05-03-21, 12:53 PM
  #270  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
You didn't answer the question. Would you pay $700 for a 7 speed bike with a freewheel?
I'm one who thinks Tourney is ok, and no I'd rather not because I don't want the freewheel. Freehub, I'd be ok with it.

Tourney DR I'm fine with if I was replacing a part, tho pointless on a road bike where claris isn't that much more
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Old 05-03-21, 01:03 PM
  #271  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
You didn't answer the question. Would you pay $700 for a 7 speed bike with a freewheel?
I wouldn't take cigarettes, K-Pop downloads, or Bud Light if they were all being given away for free; does that mean that they are poor values?

This is what you have failed to understand through this entire ridiculous thread: what you or I would purchase, or what we even think constitutes a good value, is irrelevant. Enough people are buying such bikes that manufacturers keep producing them. That's how a market system works.

By the way: as has already been pointed out several times in this thread, the typical person who's looking at a $700 townie bike doesn't even know the difference between a freewheel and a freehub. Don't believe me? Ask your non-cyclist friends about it - you'll be met with blank stares. So, why would customers care about something if they don't even know what they would be caring about?
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Old 05-03-21, 01:07 PM
  #272  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
I'm one who thinks Tourney is ok, and no I'd rather not because I don't want the freewheel. Freehub, I'd be ok with it.

Tourney DR I'm fine with if I was replacing a part, tho pointless on a road bike where claris isn't that much more
Even if I were just replacing an old part, I think I would go up to Altus just because the cost difference is not that much. It really bugs me that premium brands are putting Tourney stuff on new bikes. And the Freewheel/freehub thing, 100% agree. Absolutely not reason to be selling new premium priced bikes, even if they are entry level for the brands that sell them with freehubs in 2021.
As for Claris, it is ok. I would say for example, the Claris rear derailleur we put on my wife's Jamis is an improvement over the 2300 derailleur the bike came with. And the Claris shifters are better than those thumb shifters of the previous gen 8 speed Shimano used to sell. (my wife still uses the thumb shifters and she is OK with them, but I don't like them)
If I were buying a new road bike, I think I would want at least Sora level components, but if a friend really wanted a new road bike and was on a budget, I would tell them to just go with Claris
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Old 05-03-21, 01:18 PM
  #273  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
I wouldn't take cigarettes, K-Pop downloads, or Bud Light if they were all being given away for free; does that mean that they are poor values?

This is what you have failed to understand through this entire ridiculous thread: what you or I would purchase, or what we even think constitutes a good value, is irrelevant. Enough people are buying such bikes that manufacturers keep producing them. That's how a market system works.

By the way: as has already been pointed out several times in this thread, the typical person who's looking at a 00 townie bike doesn't even know the difference between a freewheel and a freehub. Don't believe me? Ask your non-cyclist friends about it - you'll be met with blank stares. So, why$7 would customers care about something if they don't even know what they would be caring about?
People don't know what they don't know. That is why Wal Mart continues to sell poor quality bikes at less than $200.
Imagine for a second the frustration of a newbie who goes out and buys a Wal Mart bike, finds out he or she wasted his money. A month 6 months, or a year later, goes to a bike shop and plunks down $500, $600 or even $700 on a bike he or she thinks is a premium product because of the relatively high price compared to the big box store bike. And because it is assembled hopefully by a competent mechanic and supported by the brand, and the store, it works ok for awhile. Until that person finds the entry level components just don't stay in tune all that well, or the person runs into problems with the wheels, or freewheel. Comes back and finds out that maybe they should have bought a bike with a freehub, even though they didn't even know what a freehub was. (I sure didn't when I started). So, how much for a freehub? Well, you can't just get a new freehub, you need a new wheel. And cassette. And maybe a new shifter. And since you are replacing all that stuff, you probably also need a new chain.
This has to be very frustrating for the person who just wants something that works, works well, and won't need to be replaced or upgraded for many years.
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Old 05-03-21, 01:27 PM
  #274  
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Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
People don't know what they don't know. That is why Wal Mart continues to sell poor quality bikes at less than $200.
Imagine for a second the frustration of a newbie who goes out and buys a Wal Mart bike, finds out he or she wasted his money. A month 6 months, or a year later, goes to a bike shop and plunks down $500, $600 or even $700 on a bike he or she thinks is a premium product because of the relatively high price compared to the big box store bike. And because it is assembled hopefully by a competent mechanic and supported by the brand, and the store, it works ok for awhile. Until that person finds the entry level components just don't stay in tune all that well, or the person runs into problems with the wheels, or freewheel. Comes back and finds out that maybe they should have bought a bike with a freehub, even though they didn't even know what a freehub was. (I sure didn't when I started). So, how much for a freehub? Well, you can't just get a new freehub, you need a new wheel. And cassette. And maybe a new shifter. And since you are replacing all that stuff, you probably also need a new chain.
This has to be very frustrating for the person who just wants something that works, works well, and won't need to be replaced or upgraded for many years.
But none of what you have written here really relates to your original complaint, does it? You seem to think that manufacturers should magically be able to put better components ("better" meaning that they meet with your approval, even though you're not in that market) without charging a higher price. But you've given zero evidence that this is possible.
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Old 05-03-21, 01:48 PM
  #275  
MRT2
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Location: Wisconsin
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Bikes: 2012 Salsa Casseroll, 2009 Kona Blast

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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
But none of what you have written here really relates to your original complaint, does it? You seem to think that manufacturers should magically be able to put better components ("better" meaning that they meet with your approval, even though you're not in that market) without charging a higher price. But you've given zero evidence that this is possible.
Kona sells the Dew for $629 retail and it has 8 speed Altus drivetrain, 650b wheels and tires, and mechanical disc brakes. The Dew Plus retails for $779 and has hydraulic disc brakes, 1 x 10 Deore drivetrain. It even comes with a kickstand.
Specialized sells its Roll Sport for $800, with a mix of Tourney and Altus drivetrain, mechanical discs, and 3 x 7 drivetrain.

Somehow the smaller company, with less economy of scale is managing to sell a better product at a lower price. So it is possible.
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