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Few Shimano compatibility Q's

Old 09-25-22, 12:23 AM
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Ryan_M
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Few Shimano compatibility Q's

The GF bought a reasonable but dated road bike last season that has a 3x9 Shimano 105 5501 drivetrain. The drivetrain works meh and has an off brand crank that shifts like trash. It's frustrating for both of us, shifts rarely go smoothly so she's 30m behind me by the time she gets it straightened out and it's a triple so there's even more shifting. I'm also tired of trying to polish that turd. She doesn't have the disposable income to buy the parts for me to build her a whole new ride but since Christmas is coming plus her B-day is soon after so I want to buy her a R7000 groupset. It'll help her now and she can takes the parts with her when she's able to update everything else.... that's probably code for I'll be buying/building her a set of wheels next year lol. I wan't to confirm all this is actually going to fit. I have a R8020 groupset on my bike so I have the means to confirm some parts will fit but hoping for a yay or nay before I take 2 bikes apart.

1.) Bottom braket. Looking at it I don't recognize it. I thought it was one of the cartridge styles that have the 4 sided tapers but not sure now. Sort of looks like a threaded BB with lockrings. It does state the familiar 68mm/73mm on the lockring though so that's promissing. I can't check directly becauce mine is a pressfit. It looks like the groupset I'm looking to buy comes with a BBR60 BB which looks (only by pics) identical to my MTB gear. Shimano is good but not great at documentation so I don't have a lot to go on. I have a spare BB-M8000 that I can try but if it can thread in, does that do anything to prove that a BBR60 will work?

2.) Cassette. It's a 9sp road cassette on there now. I know the 11sp road freehubs are wider but would a CS-HG700 11-34 fit? It has the dished in spider at the back. On-line documentation says it will but it'd be nice to get confirmation. Also if it does fit does that do anything to screw with chainline?

3.) Front deraillier. The new stuff uses braze on but hers is a clamp type. I've seen there are adapters but they look kinda flimsy. Has anyone used one? Do they work OK?

Thanks!

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Old 09-25-22, 05:29 AM
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What is her "dated road bike"
Dated road bike bike can mean different things to different people. Anything from a 80's lugged steel to 2015 carbon
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Old 09-25-22, 05:37 AM
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Is it possible that things are worn and/or out of adjustment?
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Old 09-25-22, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dedhed
What is her "dated road bike"
Dated road bike bike can mean different things to different people. Anything from a 80's lugged steel to 2015 carbon
Ryan_M states it has 5501, which puts it as late 90's-early '00's (1996-2005), if it's been used, then it's probably worn out by now and mostly will need a refresh (probably hard to do as spares like bracket covers (hoods) will be HTF/unavailable) or replacement with a more modern drive train.

For the questions
1 - If it's 68/73mm, then a HT2 BB will fit, for Shimano being poor on documentation you can find it here Manuals | Manuals & Technical Documents (shimano.com) For the BBR60, this is a different spec to MTB HT2 BB's, and need an adaptor to fit, All of these I have purchased came with the adaptor, but from seeing post more recently, this may no longer be the case and it may need to be purchased separately.

2 - Should work, your current RD may not, that said, if the bike is a triple, check the ratios, as a 11-34 + triple is a massive range for a road bike, even if your looking at a double 50/34, this gives a very wide ratio

3 - Flimsy? not seen a band on adaptor that would ever be described a flimsy, you should still be able to buy band on FD's, using a clamp on is just easier if swapping/mean shops need less SKU's

For sticking a new groupset on any old bike, would do the math on is it cost effective vs just buying a complete bike, you currently have a 25–30-year-old bike, and throwing a new groupset on it will still leave you with an old bike, just with a few new components. You haven't mentioned if things like the stem and handlebars fit, add all this up.

Does your GF really need R7000? would looking at a new bike with Sora or Tiagra that has a modern fit be better? there is nothing wrong with the lower end Shimano groupsets, they are ergonomically as good today as the higher end ones, and work as well.
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Old 09-25-22, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jimc101
Ryan_M states it has 5501, which puts it as late 90's-early '00's (1996-2005), if it's been used, then it's probably worn out by now and mostly will need a refresh (probably hard to do as spares like bracket covers (hoods) will be HTF/unavailable) or replacement with a more modern drive train..

Or it's older and has already had an update in the past like my 84 Raleigh or 91 Trek updated to 6600 Ultegra.

A FC-5503 crank would have used an Octalink BB which is usually a cartridge unless someone opted for the DuraAce version (BB-7700?) for some reason which did use a lock ring.
Assuming it's a threaded BB shell they need to determine BSA/Italian threading for the new one.
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Old 09-25-22, 09:35 AM
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What exactly doesn't go smoothly when she shifts the front? If she doesn't understand that at the same time the front is shifted that the rear must be shifted two or three cogs to get the correct next ratio, then that might be why she's 30 meters behind all of a sudden. And if on that 3x she's going from the large to the smallest ring in one shift, intentionally or unintentionally, well that's an issue too and maybe a simple adjustment.

Might be the old stuff is worn out and can't be adjusted. But since it's a 3x, you really need to determine if those lower ratios are needed. If they are, then maybe 10 speed Tiagra 4700 with a 3x crank will be a good upgrade. And they still make it so it can be all new stuff instead of used that you hope works. And certainly less expensive than the 105 R7000 that will only be 2x and not give the low ratios that might be needed.

If you can describe the actual issues with the front shifting that you say is happening, then maybe there is a fix for that. Is your bike a size that she can ride and you ride hers to compare?

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Old 09-25-22, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jimc101
2 - Should work, your current RD may not.
Current RD will not work with ST-R7000s. Shimano changed the RD pull ratio with 11-speed road - and with 10-speed mountain, FWIW (to something else different from either 10- or 11-speed road).

Tiagra 4700 and one or two other newer gravel 10-speed groups that post-date Shimano's intro of 11-speed road also use the new pull road ratio. 10-speed 105 and Ultegra did NOT use the new 11-speed road pull ratio.

If the OP's GF wants to stay with a front triple, that could be an issue too. Shimano doesn't seem to offer one with R7000 or R8000 (though both groupsets are available with either braze-on or clamp mounted double FDs). And I understand the FD pull ratio also changed with 11-speed road, so a new FD will also likely be required to go R7000.
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Old 09-25-22, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by dedhed
What is her "dated road bike"
Dated road bike bike can mean different things to different people. Anything from a 80's lugged steel to 2015 carbon
Originally Posted by Hondo6
Current RD will not work with ST-R7000s. Shimano changed the RD pull ratio with 11-speed road - and with 10-speed mountain, FWIW (to something else different from either 10- or 11-speed road).

Tiagra 4700 and one or two other newer gravel 10-speed groups that post-date Shimano's intro of 11-speed road also use the new pull road ratio. 10-speed 105 and Ultegra did NOT use the new 11-speed road pull ratio.

If the OP's GF wants to stay with a front triple, that could be an issue too. Shimano doesn't seem to offer one with R7000 or R8000 (though both groupsets are available with either braze-on or clamp mounted double FDs). And I understand the FD pull ratio also changed with 11-speed road, so a new FD will also likely be required to go R7000.
From the question, was taking it that Ryan meant using the current wheels (9 speed) with a new to be purchased 11 speed R7000 RD/Groupset, in this case, the 11-34 cassette should (according to the Shimano specs) fit on an older freehub.

Thinking this is on the basis that the freehub was 9 speed road, as with many questions on BF, there is a lot of guess work with the limited info given even in this case were is was pretty detailed

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Old 09-25-22, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jimc101
Ryan_M states it has 5501, which puts it as late 90's-early '00's (1996-2005), if it's been used, then it's probably worn out by now and mostly will need a refresh (probably hard to do as spares like bracket covers (hoods) will be HTF/unavailable) or replacement with a more modern drive train.

For the questions
1 - If it's 68/73mm, then a HT2 BB will fit, for Shimano being poor on documentation you can find it here Manuals | Manuals & Technical Documents (shimano.com) For the BBR60, this is a different spec to MTB HT2 BB's, and need an adaptor to fit, All of these I have purchased came with the adaptor, but from seeing post more recently, this may no longer be the case and it may need to be purchased separately.

2 - Should work, your current RD may not, that said, if the bike is a triple, check the ratios, as a 11-34 + triple is a massive range for a road bike, even if your looking at a double 50/34, this gives a very wide ratio

3 - Flimsy? not seen a band on adaptor that would ever be described a flimsy, you should still be able to buy band on FD's, using a clamp on is just easier if swapping/mean shops need less SKU's

For sticking a new groupset on any old bike, would do the math on is it cost effective vs just buying a complete bike, you currently have a 25–30-year-old bike, and throwing a new groupset on it will still leave you with an old bike, just with a few new components. You haven't mentioned if things like the stem and handlebars fit, add all this up.

Does your GF really need R7000? would looking at a new bike with Sora or Tiagra that has a modern fit be better? there is nothing wrong with the lower end Shimano groupsets, they are ergonomically as good today as the higher end ones, and work as well.
Seems the bike is 20ish years old so those dates fit. Thanks for the link but I've been through most of that. I was more looking for thread pitch/diameter specs, dimensioned drawings, etc., so I could make extra sure but haven't been able to find it though it's possible I missed a document.

Her bike fits her well, it's an ALU frame and carbon fork, so it's still serviceable for now. Wheels arent horrible, 105 hubs and Mavic rims. The handle bars have some funky bends in the drops so maybe a new HB while I'm changing everything out. It's really just the drivetrain that's the weak point. I understand what you're saying about putting all the new stuff on an old bike but like I said disposable income isn't there right now for a whole new bike. When she updates the rest of the bike I'll be building it, save a ton of $$$ that way. I built my roadie end of last winter and saved ~$2400 over a comparible commercial offering - though I'd argue mine is still a bit better. So when she does move on I'll take the groupset with and throw the old gear back on the bike so she can sell it.

No she doesn't really "need" R7000, I don't need R8020 on mine either but it's nice to have!!! I considered R4700 but the price difference on the entire groupset to go up to R7000 is $72 so might as well go for the better stuff. I'd rather not go for R3000. Thanks for the answers on the technical questions. Re: the adapter, is was looking at this part. It seems the mating surface between the adapter and the FD is a little short and won't stabilize the derailleur well but not needed now, as Hondo6 mentioned the R7000 FD is available in a clamp mount as well (I missed that so thanks!).
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Old 09-25-22, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
What exactly doesn't go smoothly when she shifts the front? If she doesn't understand that at the same time the front is shifted that the rear must be shifted two or three cogs to get the correct next ratio, then that might be why she's 30 meters behind all of a sudden. And if on that 3x she's going from the large to the smallest ring in one shift, intentionally or unintentionally, well that's an issue too and maybe a simple adjustment.

Might be the old stuff is worn out and can't be adjusted. But since it's a 3x, you really need to determine if those lower ratios are needed. If they are, then maybe 10 speed Tiagra 4700 with a 3x crank will be a good upgrade. And they still make it so it can be all new stuff instead of used that you hope works. And certainly less expensive than the 105 R7000 that will only be 2x and not give the low ratios that might be needed.

If you can describe the actual issues with the front shifting that you say is happening, then maybe there is a fix for that. Is your bike a size that she can ride and you ride hers to compare?
Lol take your pick! Sometimes the chain skips, sometimes ends up jammed in between rings, and sometimes drops on the inboard side. Visually the rings have some wear but it doesn't seem excessive, I've gone over the chain and the checker says it still has a lot of life left in it, and if I adjust the L screw any more to try and prevent the dropped chain it'll be rubbing when shes in small ring to large cog. It just looks like a POS crank, not a contour to be found anywhere to guide the chain around. I don't want to get into buying parts for this drivetrain to maybe make it work a little better. The rear doesn't shift all that great either though not nearly as problematic as the front. I've adjusted it but im not happy with how it works. I should put the tool on the hanger to see if it's bent, I haven't done that yet now that I think about it. You make a good point though, it could all just be worn past it's service life.

I run a 50/34 and 11-34 on my bike and I have no complaints. In hindsight I probably should have gone with a 11-28 cassette so I'll likely get that when it comes time to replace it. I tend to run a little higher cadence than the GF and I'm a sit and spin kind of climber so I typically need slightly shorter gearing than what she uses. Our hybrids are similarly geared and she's usually a cog down from where I am when I think to look. I was going to get her a 50/34 as well and she would have to run a 11-34 cassette without going for new hubs, if I rarely touch that 34-34 it should be adequate for her. Also she does not like tripples (nor do I) so a 2x11 would be a very welcome upgrade. Thanks for the input!

Last edited by Ryan_M; 09-25-22 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 09-26-22, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jimc101
From the question, was taking it that Ryan meant using the current wheels (9 speed) with a new to be purchased 11 speed R7000 RD/Groupset, in this case, the 11-34 cassette should (according to the Shimano specs) fit on an older freehub.

Thinking this is on the basis that the freehub was 9 speed road, as with many questions on BF, there is a lot of guess work with the limited info given even in this case were is was pretty detailed
I was focusing specifically on the "RD may not work" issue. I ran across this during the height of the recent pandemic when I was trying to assemble a Tiagra 4700 build - and everything but the RD was available. Ended up researching the pull ratio change issue pretty thoroughly and purchasing an R7000 RD (which was available) instead of waiting. Works like a charm.

Good to know info about the HG-700 cassette being 10/11 road compatible; thanks for pointing that out. Gives me options I wasn't previously aware I had.
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Old 10-26-22, 09:52 PM
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Finally pulled the trigger on this.... Language barriers can be exhausting but there are some helpful sellers on Ali. FWIW I did test fit my HG-800 11-34 cassette on her bike and it was fine. Obviously indexing was nonexistent but the high and low matched up perfectly so no weird contortions of the RD are expected. I didn't double check the botton bracket but if it doesn't fit there is likely an aftermarket solution out there, worst case I can machine one (oh I hope not!!!).

Since I want to try a 11-28 cassette I ordered that and will take that and give her my Ultegra 11-34 (only has maybe 700km on it). Fair trade? Still not totally comfortable having a 105 part on my bike though, gross!! hahaha
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Old 10-27-22, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryan_M
Finally pulled the trigger on this.... Language barriers can be exhausting but there are some helpful sellers on Ali. FWIW I did test fit my HG-800 11-34 cassette on her bike and it was fine. Obviously indexing was nonexistent but the high and low matched up perfectly so no weird contortions of the RD are expected. I didn't double check the botton bracket but if it doesn't fit there is likely an aftermarket solution out there, worst case I can machine one (oh I hope not!!!).

Since I want to try a 11-28 cassette I ordered that and will take that and give her my Ultegra 11-34 (only has maybe 700km on it). Fair trade? Still not totally comfortable having a 105 part on my bike though, gross!! hahaha
How did you manage to get an 11 speed cassette on your existing freehub which I assume can only fit 8, 9 or 10 speed cassettes? Which groupo did you end up getting?
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Old 10-27-22, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Lombard
How did you manage to get an 11 speed cassette on your existing freehub which I assume can only fit 8, 9 or 10 speed cassettes? Which groupo did you end up getting?
I went with the R7000 groupset. On the HG-800 the side against the spokes is dished so it fits 8, 9, 10 speed hubs. It's standard width for mtb cassettes.
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Old 10-27-22, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryan_M
I went with the R7000 groupset. On the HG-800 the side against the spokes is dished so it fits 8, 9, 10 speed hubs. It's standard width for mtb cassettes.
Correct. But 11-speed cassettes are wider than 8-9-10 speed cassettes. Am I missing something here?
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Old 10-27-22, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Lombard
Correct. But 11-speed cassettes are wider than 8-9-10 speed cassettes. Am I missing something here?
Yes they are wider in terms of cogs, but the inboard side is dished in so it fits on a road 8-10speed hub. look at pics of any 11sp cassette. You can put a 11sp mtb cassette on a 8-10sp road hub as well, just the 34t sprocket of the HG800 is as small as it can can go and still fit. A 11sp cassette smaller than 34t will not fit.

[edit] heres a pic that shows the dishing. If you use it on a 11sp road hub, then you nee to add a shim as well (1.85mm I believe).

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Old 10-27-22, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan_M
Yes they are wider in terms of cogs, but the inboard side is dished in so it fits on a road 8-10speed hub. look at pics of any 11sp cassette. You can put a 11sp mtb cassette on a 8-10sp road hub as well, just the 34t sprocket of the HG800 is as small as it can can go and still fit. A 11sp cassette smaller than 34t will not fit.

[edit] heres a pic that shows the dishing. If you use it on a 11sp road hub, then you nee to add a shim as well (1.85mm I believe).
Ahhh, OK.
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Old 10-27-22, 04:27 PM
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Doc. from Shimano about cassette compatibility.

Note, diagram for 12 speed cassette was done by someone who can't count .
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