Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Dream Build: SRAM Force Etap or Shimano Dura Ace Di2

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Dream Build: SRAM Force Etap or Shimano Dura Ace Di2

Old 11-18-21, 07:55 PM
  #1  
Amelio 
Let’s discuss bikes
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Toronto
Posts: 94

Bikes: Apollo something, 1983 Bianchi Super, Specialized Road

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 14 Posts
Dream Build: SRAM Force Etap or Shimano Dura Ace Di2

If you had a choice and cost wasn’t a concern, which groupset would you choose? For a C$10,000 bike.

SRAM Force Etap 12 speed

or

Shimano Dura Ace Di2 11 Speed


and why?

Thanks for your input!
Amelio is offline  
Old 11-18-21, 08:09 PM
  #2  
GlennR
On Your Left
 
GlennR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 8,373

Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3004 Post(s)
Liked 2,433 Times in 1,187 Posts
Red... it's lighter.
GlennR is offline  
Old 11-18-21, 08:26 PM
  #3  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,453

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7628 Post(s)
Liked 3,453 Times in 1,823 Posts
$10,000 Canadian .... that's about six dollars US, right?

I have no idea what the conversion factor is .... so just kidding.

I would wait and get Dura-Ace DI2 12-speed. If I were spending a Really big chunk of money (well, not compared to a car or a house, but for a bike) and I was seriously going for a "dream build:" why would I want to rush into a build and get less than all I could get?

I figure I would rather wait a season for a bike I might have for a few decades (should I live so long) than get the bike a year sooner and listen to people describe how much better they like 12 compared to their old 11-speed set-ups.

It depends on what cassettes Shimano comes out with, but for me the utility of more sequential steps and still a wide useable range coupled with programable shifting ..... so I could set it sequential on one or both rings .....

But I am old and not as impatient as I was when younger. I know for some younger folks, saying "Just wait a year longer" sounds beyond insane.
Maelochs is offline  
Likes For Maelochs:
Old 11-19-21, 05:28 AM
  #4  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,175
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4274 Post(s)
Liked 4,713 Times in 2,911 Posts
Why are you comparing SRAM Force with DuraAce Di2? SRAM Red vs DuraAce Di2 would be a more like-for-like comparison if cost wasn't a concern.
PeteHski is offline  
Likes For PeteHski:
Old 11-19-21, 05:47 AM
  #5  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times in 1,311 Posts
I have SRAM Red AXS. My hand like the shape of the brake lever. Wireless is very easy to setup. My system is a bit of a franken build. I think the rear derailleur is ugly. It seems to shift faster than my 11S etap. The blip box and blips work for me due to some hand/arm disability


The Shimano 12S Dura Ace is not yet available and it is questionable whether one could get a grouppo before late Spring IMO. One drawback if you have rim brakes is the wiring complexity for that setup. A big advantage is battery life. If I were going for a completely custom build, it would be Dura Ace. I like that they stuck with 11T as the smallest sprocket and the group does not have as many imposed compatibility constraints as SRAM's marketing geniuses imposed. Just my opinion.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 06:59 AM
  #6  
TiHabanero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,435
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1726 Post(s)
Liked 1,350 Times in 705 Posts
Having set up numerous Di2 bikes and eTap bikes, I vote for eTap every time. Easy set up that makes life simple. FWIW, I am not a fan of most everything Sram sells, however the eTap system is simply brilliant. Now the bad part. You have to use Sram hydro brakes which are inferior to Shimano hydro brakes.
TiHabanero is offline  
Likes For TiHabanero:
Old 11-19-21, 07:21 AM
  #7  
Bald Paul
Senior Member
 
Bald Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 806 Post(s)
Liked 1,612 Times in 764 Posts
I built a bike last year (Covid project) and was considering Etap, because I could use a set of carbon bars I already had, and didn't have to worry about internal wiring. Couldn't find a groupset anywhere at the time, so I went with Di2 and aluminum bars designed for internal wiring.

I'm glad I did. SRAM has stopped all production of components for earlier 11 spd Etap systems (although now they have some updated software that will allow you to buy the newer 12 spd levers and reprogram them to work with 11 spd.) And now, with the new 12 sp Di2, there are no wires from the levers to run.
Bald Paul is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 07:56 AM
  #8  
Flatforkcrown
Full Member
 
Flatforkcrown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Barboursville, Va
Posts: 289

Bikes: N+1

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 159 Posts
Why not campy?
Flatforkcrown is offline  
Likes For Flatforkcrown:
Old 11-19-21, 08:01 AM
  #9  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times in 1,311 Posts
The Shimano Dura Ace R9250 group uses wires from the shifter.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 09:36 AM
  #10  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,768
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6882 Post(s)
Liked 10,873 Times in 4,637 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62
The Shimano Dura Ace R9250 group uses wires from the shifter.
I believe that is true for the rim brake group, but the disc brake levers are wireless.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 11-19-21, 10:31 AM
  #11  
chaadster
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,373

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3078 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times in 1,005 Posts
I’d go Force AXS over DA 11spd Di2, for sure, because having the extra gear is cool, the ease of AXS installation and setup is unbeatable, and having the flexibility and adapatability of the AXS platform is appealing. Dura Ace Di2 11spd offers a fair bit of weight savings over Force AXS, like nearly 1lbs, but if money was no object and the total build was coming in around 10k, I’d be well into “light bike” territory anyway, where a pound either way just wouldn’t really matter

SRAM have a beta program for AXS, so I suspect the system will be the basis of development for awhile.
chaadster is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 10:46 AM
  #12  
popeye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 1,935

Bikes: S works Tarmac, Felt TK2 track

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 179 Times in 111 Posts
Originally Posted by chaadster
I’d go Force AXS over DA 11spd Di2, for sure, because having the extra gear is cool, the ease of AXS installation and setup is unbeatable, and having the flexibility and adapatability of the AXS platform is appealing. Dura Ace Di2 11spd offers a fair bit of weight savings over Force AXS, like nearly 1lbs, but if money was no object and the total build was coming in around 10k, I’d be well into “light bike” territory anyway, where a pound either way just wouldn’t really matter

SRAM have a beta program for AXS, so I suspect the system will be the basis of development for awhile.
I would be hard pressed to give up a pound on a 10K$ bike. I find that a weight does matter biggly but then my bike and I come to 150lbs. YMMV
popeye is offline  
Likes For popeye:
Old 11-20-21, 08:51 AM
  #13  
DaveSSS 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,213

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked 554 Times in 443 Posts
I switched from Campy chorus 12 to force axs 12 on two bikes, last July. No regrets at all. I first had my force levers on rim brake frames, but in October and November I switched to disc frames, but kept my force levers and used Juin-Tech GT mechanically operated hydraulic calipers. They've worked great for over a year now. I'm not fond of sram cranks and their limited range, so I've used Campy 48/32 and shimano grx cranks that are offered in 48/31 and 46/30. The need for smaller chain rings does limit your crank choices.

Battery life with axs is good. Having easily removable batteries means you can carry a spare and never have to worry about having a dead system out on the road. I recharge mine every couple of weeks..

IMO, red axs offers nothing but a little lower weight for a lot more money. Same goes for shimano DA.
DaveSSS is offline  
Old 11-20-21, 11:25 AM
  #14  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times in 1,311 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
I switched from Campy chorus 12 to force axs 12 on two bikes, last July. No regrets at all. I first had my force levers on rim brake frames, but in October and November I switched to disc frames, but kept my force levers and used Juin-Tech GT mechanically operated hydraulic calipers. They've worked great for over a year now. I'm not fond of sram cranks and their limited range, so I've used Campy 48/32 and shimano grx cranks that are offered in 48/31 and 46/30. The need for smaller chain rings does limit your crank choices.

Battery life with axs is good. Having easily removable batteries means you can carry a spare and never have to worry about having a dead system out on the road. I recharge mine every couple of weeks..

IMO, red axs offers nothing but a little lower weight for a lot more money. Same goes for shimano DA.
Are you also using the SRAM flat top chain and the 12S SRAM cassette? If not, which cassette and chain? If yes, did you change the chainrings?
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 11-20-21, 02:33 PM
  #15  
Germany_chris
I’m a little Surly
 
Germany_chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Near the district
Posts: 2,427

Bikes: Two Cross Checks, a Karate Monkey, a Disc Trucker, and a VO Randonneur

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 698 Post(s)
Liked 1,292 Times in 646 Posts
SRAM levers agree with my hands better so I’d go SRAM
Germany_chris is offline  
Old 11-20-21, 03:29 PM
  #16  
DaveSSS 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,213

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked 554 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Are you also using the SRAM flat top chain and the 12S SRAM cassette? If not, which cassette and chain? If yes, did you change the chainrings?
The SRAM flat top chain works just fine with both Campy and Shimano GRX cranks and Campy 12 cassettes. The combination is incredibly quiet. I tried a Shimano 12 chain and found that it didn't work great with a SRAM AXS cassette. I had shifting problems in the 13-14-15 range. If someone wanted to create a mixed drivetrain with a Shimano 12 cassette, it would work fine.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 11-21-21 at 03:04 PM.
DaveSSS is offline  
Old 11-20-21, 06:46 PM
  #17  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times in 1,311 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
The SRAM flat top chain works just fine with both Campy and Shimano GRX cranks and Campy 12 12 cassettes. The combination is incredibly quiet. I tried a Shimano 12 chain and found that it didn't work great with a SRAM AXS cassette. I had shifting problems in the 13-14-15 range. If someone wanted to create a mixed drivetrain with a Shimano 12 cassette, it would work fine.
I am using a Rotor 11-36 12s cassette, Dura Ace 7800 crank, YBN chain, and AXS red FD, RD, and shifters. Its just ok but part of it is the B stop, I am have it maxed out to handle the 36T on the regular RD. I am going to try a Campy Record chain next, then, the 36T RD after that.
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 11-20-21, 07:10 PM
  #18  
DaveSSS 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 7,213

Bikes: Cinelli superstar disc, two Yoeleo R12

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked 554 Times in 443 Posts
It's easy to make a longer B screw from an M4 button head screw with the head ground down, but too much gap will foul up the 10-11 shift.. The gap needs to be about 3mm instead of 5mm. On my bikes, the screw in all the way creates too much gap. Unless the axs chain won't work with your crank, it's the best for the cassette.

If shifting isn't good, blame the 11-36 cassette - the sprocket spacing is not correct. A sram 10-36 will work.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 11-20-21 at 07:59 PM.
DaveSSS is offline  
Old 11-20-21, 07:18 PM
  #19  
bampilot06
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: 757
Posts: 11,044

Bikes: Madone, Emonda, 5500, Ritchey Breakaway

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10065 Post(s)
Liked 5,051 Times in 2,155 Posts
I’ve been happy with sram force on my madone.

My other bikes are shimano.
bampilot06 is offline  
Old 11-20-21, 09:23 PM
  #20  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,538

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10902 Post(s)
Liked 7,393 Times in 4,148 Posts
I have yet to see a SRAM wireless setup and think- 'wow, that drivetrain looks awesome!', so between your two choices I would go Shimano.
mstateglfr is offline  
Likes For mstateglfr:
Old 11-21-21, 09:37 AM
  #21  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times in 1,311 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS
It's easy to make a longer B screw from an M4 button head screw with the head ground down, but too much gap will foul up the 10-11 shift.. The gap needs to be about 3mm instead of 5mm. On my bikes, the screw in all the way creates too much gap. Unless the axs chain won't work with your crank, it's the best for the cassette.

If shifting isn't good, blame the 11-36 cassette - the sprocket spacing is not correct. A sram 10-36 will work.
I absolutely don't want the 10T, do not have XDR wheels, and the flat top chain is very inefficient. Once Shimano dura ace 10-34 12 speed cassettes are available in the USA, I think I am in business. It isn't bad but the 53x 28, 32, 36 are not the best shifting
GhostRider62 is offline  
Old 11-21-21, 11:34 AM
  #22  
chaadster
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,373

Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3078 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times in 1,005 Posts
Originally Posted by GhostRider62
…and the flat top chain is very inefficient.
If you’re referring to CeramicSpeed’s efficiency testing, I don’t think there’s enough substance there to warrant the clam that flattops are “very inefficient.” First, after giving the chains their super race lube treatment and running them 13hrs at 90rpm x 250w, Dura Ace and Force AXS chains are only .62w apart. When you consider that against the fact CeramicSpeed say that with factory lube most chains run 8w-10w compared to the 4.5w and 6.5w we see for these two chains, respectively, it’s not only a quite small difference between treated results compared to factory lube results, but it clearly indicates that the type of lubrication is far and away the biggest factor in efficiency. Layer in durability, and efficiency is even harder to assess since chain wear makes staying on top of state-of-lube hypercritical.

https://cyclingtips.com/2019/12/the-...ciency-tested/
chaadster is offline  
Old 11-21-21, 11:56 AM
  #23  
JohnJ80
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,671

Bikes: N+1=5

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 875 Post(s)
Liked 243 Times in 180 Posts
Originally Posted by Amelio
If you had a choice and cost wasn’t a concern, which groupset would you choose? For a C$10,000 bike.

SRAM Force Etap 12 speed

or

Shimano Dura Ace Di2 11 Speed


and why?

Thanks for your input!
I'd go with the AXS but if I were comparing here because it works so well, is so easy to set up, and is a much cleaner installation. FWIW, I converted a Ultegra Di2 bike (11 spd) to Red eTap (11spd) and am really glad I did. I think the same would apply to 12 spd. I initially had converted a mech bike to red eTap which was really the only choice since Di2 was out of the question due to cables on a bike not designed for internal electronic routing. I liked it so much, I tossed by Di2 and replaced it with eTap. Here in Minnesota, where I ride until the ground freezes, the SRAM shifters are much easier to use with full gloves.

Originally Posted by Bald Paul
I built a bike last year (Covid project) and was considering Etap, because I could use a set of carbon bars I already had, and didn't have to worry about internal wiring. Couldn't find a groupset anywhere at the time, so I went with Di2 and aluminum bars designed for internal wiring.

I'm glad I did. SRAM has stopped all production of components for earlier 11 spd Etap systems (although now they have some updated software that will allow you to buy the newer 12 spd levers and reprogram them to work with 11 spd.) And now, with the new 12 sp Di2, there are no wires from the levers to run.
Not entirely true. SRAM has updated the rear derailleur for Red eTap (11 spd) with a clutch derailleur just last fall. You could still buy an entire system piecemeal if you wanted to. With the modifications to make 12 spd shifters work with 11 spd, the new RD upgrade, etc... that strikes me as better than normal support for a system that has been superseded by a newer one.

J.
JohnJ80 is offline  
Old 11-21-21, 12:19 PM
  #24  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times in 1,311 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnJ80
I'd go with the AXS but if I were comparing here because it works so well, is so easy to set up, and is a much cleaner installation. FWIW, I converted a Ultegra Di2 bike (11 spd) to Red eTap (11spd) and am really glad I did. I think the same would apply to 12 spd. I initially had converted a mech bike to red eTap which was really the only choice since Di2 was out of the question due to cables on a bike not designed for internal electronic routing. I liked it so much, I tossed by Di2 and replaced it with eTap. Here in Minnesota, where I ride until the ground freezes, the SRAM shifters are much easier to use with full gloves.



Not entirely true. SRAM has updated the rear derailleur for Red eTap (11 spd) with a clutch derailleur just last fall. You could still buy an entire system piecemeal if you wanted to. With the modifications to make 12 spd shifters work with 11 spd, the new RD upgrade, etc... that strikes me as better than normal support for a system that has been superseded by a newer one.

J.
SRAM was 2-3 years late to support customers on this matter and even still, you cannot build an entire system piecemeal. There are no 11 speed etap front derailleurs available anywhere (except fleebay scalpers) and you cannot use an AXS shifter with 11 speed etap RD and AXS FC. If you need a etap FD, you are SOL
GhostRider62 is offline  
Likes For GhostRider62:
Old 11-21-21, 12:55 PM
  #25  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,645 Times in 6,054 Posts
How's is this even a question? If it has SRAM it's not a dream build.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.