Frame sizing on vintage bikes
#1
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Portland
Posts: 357
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 267 Times
in
98 Posts
Frame sizing on vintage bikes
My recently purchased Schwinn VSP is a fun ride. Nimble with nothing in the bags, yet planted and comfortable when the bags are filled with groceries. It is a 21”, 21.5” top tube, 170mm cranks, 74 degree head/seat and 27” wheels. With the amount of stem and seatpost showing, it looks like the frame is too small for me, but when I bought the bike I also tried a 23” version and it was too big for me. My nice bike is 56/56, 73/73 with 650b and it fits quite nicely and looks proportionate.
I’m trying to figure out why this bike looks small though it fits perfectly the way it is set up. Would a dirtdrop stem make the bike look more proportional?
I’m trying to figure out why this bike looks small though it fits perfectly the way it is set up. Would a dirtdrop stem make the bike look more proportional?
#2
ambulatory senior
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Peoria Il
Posts: 5,998
Bikes: Austro Daimler modified by Gugie! Raleigh Professional and lots of other bikes.
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1955 Post(s)
Liked 3,661 Times
in
1,679 Posts
Looks pretty good to me. If you want the 23" your stand over might be too much. Personally I don't worry about stand over but it's not a bad thing to be aware of. If that works for you and you have enough stem insertion I think you're golden.
Likes For 52telecaster:
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,394
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked 1,734 Times
in
974 Posts
People typically eyeball frame sizes by looking at the headtube length. But on a bike like this- there is a huge amount of air space between the fork crown and the top of the tire. So the fork is longer and the head tube shorter, and that makes the frame look like it's a size smaller than it is.
But to answer your question- yes a 90 degree (or more) stem would look better in this situation.
But to answer your question- yes a 90 degree (or more) stem would look better in this situation.
Likes For icemilkcoffee:
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,784
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3505 Post(s)
Liked 2,924 Times
in
1,774 Posts
Looks OK to me. The stem is up high, but that isn't an indicator of proper frame size; more like a comfort thing. Seatpost is right there in the range.
Likes For smd4:
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,703
Bikes: 82 Medici, 2011 Richard Sachs, 2011 Milwaukee Road
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1948 Post(s)
Liked 2,010 Times
in
1,109 Posts
Why do you think the 23” version is too big? Was it too tall or too long? By how much?
I’d say that if you need that much stem to get the bars where you want them, AND you have an opportunity to get the next larger size, get the next larger size.
I’d say that if you need that much stem to get the bars where you want them, AND you have an opportunity to get the next larger size, get the next larger size.
__________________
I don't do: disks, tubeless, e-shifting, or bead head nymphs.
I don't do: disks, tubeless, e-shifting, or bead head nymphs.
Likes For Classtime:
#6
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Portland
Posts: 357
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 267 Times
in
98 Posts
The 23” hurt. It pressed on my taint. Plus I bought this while on vacation, so I’m nowhere near the bike. The 23” was only a few dollars less and nowhere in as good of condition.
Likes For Lbxpdx:
#7
ambulatory senior
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Peoria Il
Posts: 5,998
Bikes: Austro Daimler modified by Gugie! Raleigh Professional and lots of other bikes.
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1955 Post(s)
Liked 3,661 Times
in
1,679 Posts
With that info I'd say you bought the right bike. All my stems are pretty high. It's an arthritis thing and I don't care what people think!
#8
Thrifty Bill
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mountains of Western NC
Posts: 23,524
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue X2, 88 Cimarron LE, 1975 Sekai 4000 Professional, 73 Paramount, plus more
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1236 Post(s)
Liked 964 Times
in
628 Posts
You like it so thats all that matters.
Back in the day, bikes tended to the bigger size seat tube wise. I remember the Varsity in the early. 1970s coming in 22, 24. and 24 inch frame size. Typical was about one hand width worth of seat post showing. I was sized to a medium, 24 inch. Now I am comfortable on a 21 1/2 inch. Sold my 24 inch bike years ago.
I like dirt drop style stems for comfort too. Its one reason I am attracted to the drop bar conversion on a rigid frame MTB.
Back in the day, bikes tended to the bigger size seat tube wise. I remember the Varsity in the early. 1970s coming in 22, 24. and 24 inch frame size. Typical was about one hand width worth of seat post showing. I was sized to a medium, 24 inch. Now I am comfortable on a 21 1/2 inch. Sold my 24 inch bike years ago.
I like dirt drop style stems for comfort too. Its one reason I am attracted to the drop bar conversion on a rigid frame MTB.
Likes For wrk101:
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,155
Mentioned: 481 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3809 Post(s)
Liked 6,684 Times
in
2,609 Posts
With that short of a head tube, looks more like a 19” frame than a 21”.
Likes For nlerner:
#10
feros ferio
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,796
Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1392 Post(s)
Liked 1,324 Times
in
836 Posts
You must be about my size. The bikes which fit me best are the Bianchi, the Carlton, and the three Capos, all of which are 55cm C-T. The UO-8 is a 21-incher, but proportionally long in the top tube.
1959 Capo with Nervar Star crank and Campag. 980 derailleur upgrades and new Brooks Pro saddle.
1959 Capo with Nervar Star crank and Campag. 980 derailleur upgrades and new Brooks Pro saddle.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
Likes For John E:
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 20,435
Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5888 Post(s)
Liked 3,471 Times
in
2,079 Posts
That bike looks on the small side to me given how high the bars are. That said, it seems to work for you. I hope you have enough of the stem inserted into the head tube for that to be safe. You are running a Nitto technomic stem (or a tall stem from a different manufacturer), right
Likes For bikemig:
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,784
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3505 Post(s)
Liked 2,924 Times
in
1,774 Posts
#13
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Portland
Posts: 357
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 267 Times
in
98 Posts
People typically eyeball frame sizes by looking at the headtube length. But on a bike like this- there is a huge amount of air space between the fork crown and the top of the tire. So the fork is longer and the head tube shorter, and that makes the frame look like it's a size smaller than it is.
But to answer your question- yes a 90 degree (or more) stem would look better in this situation.
But to answer your question- yes a 90 degree (or more) stem would look better in this situation.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 20,435
Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5888 Post(s)
Liked 3,471 Times
in
2,079 Posts
You're kidding right? Did you bother to read the rest of my post? If the OP is happy with that set up, who cares right as long as the stem has sufficient insertion.
I dunno about what kind of expertise you may have but I worked in a bike shop selling and fitting bikes throughout the 80s. . . .
I dunno about what kind of expertise you may have but I worked in a bike shop selling and fitting bikes throughout the 80s. . . .
Last edited by bikemig; 08-10-22 at 05:46 PM.
Likes For bikemig:
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,703
Bikes: 82 Medici, 2011 Richard Sachs, 2011 Milwaukee Road
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1948 Post(s)
Liked 2,010 Times
in
1,109 Posts
Do the Voyageur SPs have high BB? That is the only way taint pressure can occur with so much seat post showing.
ps: I’m a pretty good internet fitter given woefully imperfect information.
ps: I’m a pretty good internet fitter given woefully imperfect information.
__________________
I don't do: disks, tubeless, e-shifting, or bead head nymphs.
I don't do: disks, tubeless, e-shifting, or bead head nymphs.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,829 Times
in
1,995 Posts
I would need to see the rider on the bike
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,784
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3505 Post(s)
Liked 2,924 Times
in
1,774 Posts
You're kidding right? Did you bother to read the rest of my post? If the OP is happy with that set up, who cares right as long as the stem has sufficient insertion.
I dunno about what kind of expertise you may have but I worked in a bike shop selling and fitting bikes throughout the 80s. . . .
I dunno about what kind of expertise you may have but I worked in a bike shop selling and fitting bikes throughout the 80s. . . .
If the rider gets proper leg extension with the saddle at that level, it’s not too small at all.
Worked as a wrench, also selling and fitting, 10 years, 1985-1995.
Likes For smd4:
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: North, Ga.
Posts: 2,401
Bikes: 3Rensho-Aerodynamics, Bernard Hinault Look - 1986 tour winner, Guerciotti, Various Klein's & Panasonic's
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked 375 Times
in
162 Posts
Do manufacturers still make some sort of rando handle bars? The kind that allow a couple of centimeter height to the bars relative to the stem? I am sure there is a proper name for those. Just an idea.
Your frame size looks correct. A 23 could be very challenging.
Your frame size looks correct. A 23 could be very challenging.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 20,435
Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5888 Post(s)
Liked 3,471 Times
in
2,079 Posts
I did read the rest of your post. That was all well and good. Obviously, I took issue with your assertion that the stem length had anything to do with proper frame sizing.
If the rider gets proper leg extension with the saddle at that level, it’s not too small at all.
Worked as a wrench, also selling and fitting, 10 years, 1985-1995.
If the rider gets proper leg extension with the saddle at that level, it’s not too small at all.
Worked as a wrench, also selling and fitting, 10 years, 1985-1995.
Last edited by bikemig; 08-10-22 at 07:39 PM.
Likes For bikemig:
Likes For Steel Charlie:
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,371
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2482 Post(s)
Liked 2,952 Times
in
1,677 Posts
Frame angles of 74 degees parallel for a 21" touring bike? Seems unlikely. That's '80s Italian criterium bike/track bike territory.
Likes For Trakhak:
#24
Newbie
I agree with Steel Charlie. I would address the seat first by leveling it. That would also require adjusting seat height. Then the reach to the bars would be improved allowing the rider to drop the stem further into the head tube. This set up looks very uncomfortable and the bar position is compensating for poor saddle position.
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,445
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4233 Post(s)
Liked 2,948 Times
in
1,807 Posts
I have to agree that it looks like that saddle angle would be uncomfortable for me and everything else might change if that did. On the other hand, if that saddle angle works for you, go for it.