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Cleats shedding nails

Old 11-16-22, 10:02 AM
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Mr. Spadoni 
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Cleats shedding nails

Back when I started riding, putting cleats on shoes was something you did yourself. Did it on various shoes, with mixed results. Used nails, screws, epoxy, depending of material of cleats and model of shoes. Didn’t know anyone who took their shoes to a cobbler.

Fast forward 30 or so years, I got a pair of new vintage style shoes. Bought some NOS Long TA cleats. Figured it was time to have them done correctly and I’m planning on keeping these shoes. Rode them to mark the position. Took them to a cobbler who looked experienced. Brought a pair of cranks and pedals so he could see how the step up worked.

Everyone worked out fine. Rode the shoes and cleats about a year and a half. But now I’ve dropped a couple nails. In the old days, I’d just put new nails in, because shoes never lasted long and I wasn’t worried about the life of the soles.

So do I go that route?. Or try something else like screws or rivets? Or maybe some different cleats that would allow me to use a new set of holes?

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Old 11-16-22, 10:14 AM
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I did this only once, in 1974 IIRC. I was lucky to find in my stepfather's workshop one of these iron upside-down-foot things cobblers used. It was recommended to drill the shoe and cleat and use copper rivets. Worked like a champ and a couple of years ago when the shoes were lost thrown out (actually I do not remember where they went), the cleats and rivets still in place. Betcha you couple cobble something together using that anvil of yours.
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Old 11-16-22, 10:27 AM
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I've got a pair of vintage leather shoes and a pair equally vintage Anquetil cleats that I've been meaning to nail on... for about 20 years.
Some time ago, I asked the CR list for some advice on how to get them nailed on. Most of the replies focused on the need for nails long enough to actually curl over when they were nailed into the shoe. The advice usually specifically mentioned that the nails that come with the Anquetil cleats are too short to do the job.

By some instinct that I'd still need this advice far into the future, I managed to save it and put it somewhere that I'd actually be able to find it. As such, I feel obliged to share it.

The first bit of advice came from Mark Bulgier, aka "Bulgie":
Harvey Sachs wrote:

>>
>> 1) If an expert is someone who has done it several times,
>> been photographed doing it, and has a Genuwine Shoemaker's
>> Anvil, then I qualify.


Hey, all I need to be an expert is for someone to catch me in the act
and photograph it?! I've nailed 'em a number of times, dozen-ish, and
have an iron foot that Laurie thinks is décor but really is a manly
tool.


>> [great advice snipped] Being a cautious type, I tend to drive
>> home one nail pretty well, then check the angle against the
>> crank and the wear line, then do the rest of them.


We used to take this one step further and nail about 4 nails and have
the guy go ride it a bit gingerly to verify the correct position before
committing. We used the nails that come with the cleats for the
tentative nailing - they're usually too short to be really reliable, but
being easy to pull them out if needed is a good thing in this first
step.

Then we nailed 'em with longer nails that curve back when they hit the
anvil, making little "J" shapes.

I forget what those nails are called but we got 'em at the local Ace
hardware. Like carpet tacks but a bit more slender and a small head.
The pointy end is very slender and wicked sharp; you can press them in
by hand far enough that they'll hold still for nailing, no need to
hammer on your fingers. Also this fine point is quick to double back
when it hits the anvil.

Been a long time since I bought any. Maybe they're called "slender
carpet tacks"? Length should be the combined thickness of the sole and
cleat plus 2 or 3 mm for the J hook.

Yes they go right through the sole and are visible inside, right where
your tender feet press down. But they come out so flush with the sole
that you'll never feel the bumps unless you're akin to a certain
legume-sensitive princess.

We nailed 'em like this for track sprinters and high-mileage roadies,
and no one ever had a cleat come loose. In my experience they will
definitely come loose if you use short nails that don't double back
inside.

Jamie Swan had a good story to share about having cleats nailed on....
OK, I haven't told a story in a while but this reminds me of a good one.

When I got serious about cycling in the early 70's I had a riding
partner named Mitch. We got going in racing at the same time and we
both bought leather cycling shoes as well as the aforementioned TA
cleats. We did what you are supposed to do; ride the shoes without the
cleats until you get a mark, and then nail the cleats on using the
special nails that come in the bag with the cleats. Everything was cool
for a few rides but after a while the nails loosened up and the cleats
fell off!

Mitch's next door neighbor was an Italian immigrant. His brother, Hugo,
was a shoe maker and his shop was right on our regular training route.
Mitch had an idea that maybe Uncle Hugo could make our cleats stay put.
So he bought a new set of cleats and we stopped at Hugo's shop on our
next ride.

The place was a wonderful mess; old shoes, scraps of leather and all
kinds of crazy stuff strewn about. Hugo didn't speak a word of English.
Mitch took off one of his shoes and handed it to Hugo with a sad cleat
hanging on by a couple of loose nails. Then he handed him the new
cleats in the sealed plastic bag with the special nails. While babbling
at us in Italian, Hugo tore open the bag, spilled the sacred nails into
the palm of his hand and promptly threw them over his shoulder into
abyss of endless leather scraps. We were dumbfounded!!! This IDIOT has
just thrown away the SACRED NAILS!!!

Before we could say a word Hugo picked up a nail from his bench and
proudly held it up for our examination. It was square in cross section
and tapered over its whole length. But the punch line was that it was
easily twice as long as the sole of the shoe was thick. "Isn't that
going to stick into the bottom of my foot??? Why did we ever come in
here??? This guy is a lunatic!!!" That was the low point of or visit to
Uncle Hugo's.

Hugo pull the old cleat off with a pair a pincers. He loosened the
laces and placed the shoe on the iron foot thingy. Next he carefully
bent the cleat a bit over the edge of the bench so that it matched the
curve of the sole of the shoe... I tiny glimmer of hope that he wasn't
a complete moron. Next he brushed a thick coat of glue on the sole of
the shoe, plopped the cleat down and lined up the slot with the mark
left from Mitch's pedal... Things were starting to look up. Uncle Hugo
actually understood that the slot in cleat had to line up with the
mark... But what about those way too long nails?

Hugo started a nail with a little tap of his hammer. Then he took a
huge swing at it and drive the nail home in one swat! Hugo pulled back
the tongue of the shoe and showed us the insole of the shoe. It was a
miracle!!! The nail was not sticking out at all. It was bend around
back on itself like a capitol letter J. Uncle Hugo was a GENIUS!!!

Hugo finished the job and wouldn't take our money. On the next ride we
stopped in with a bottle of Chianti... Needless to say those cleats
never loosened up. We used those TA cleats for years after that, but
they only lasted about one season before the aluminum base plate
cracked at the middle of the slot. It was mildly annoying but at least
it was an excuse to go visit uncle Hugo.
No idea if this is the problem you are having, but at least it is one thing to check.

Steve in Peoria, still planning on getting those cleats nailed on "one of these days".
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Old 11-16-22, 11:28 AM
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BITD when we were nailing on cleats we just used long carpet tacks and the shoemaker buck. They never came loose and who cares what the nails holding on the cleat looked like?
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Old 11-16-22, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Spadoni
Back when I started riding, putting cleats on shoes was something you did yourself. Did it on various shoes, with mixed results. Used nails, screws, epoxy, depending of material of cleats and model of shoes. Didn’t know anyone who took their shoes to a cobbler.
The nice thing about taking them to a cobbler is that the cobbler is likely to have the cast-iron shoe lasts they can put inside the shoe. When the nail hits the last, the end bends back to form a hook that prevents the nails from working loose or poking into your foot.
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Old 11-16-22, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
The nice thing about taking them to a cobbler is that the cobbler is likely to have the cast-iron shoe lasts they can put inside the shoe. When the nail hits the last, the end bends back to form a hook that prevents the nails from working loose or poking into your foot.
we never used the tacks that came with the cleats. Used as I recall #4 - long enough to do as Mr Thompson states, hit the iron and curl around . A mess to remove!
use only when cleats are in a good position.
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Old 11-16-22, 05:05 PM
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I agree with all the posts suggesting making the nails bend over. However, the only time I used a "iron upside-down-foot thing cobblers used" I broke it. Too vigorous with the hammer, I guess. But the method I have used with success is to clamp a hammer in a vice and use the hammer as an anvil, lining it up with nails as you drive them.
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Old 11-16-22, 05:53 PM
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BITD, an area LBS owner would rivet them He told me to go for a few rides to establish the position, then he would do his thing. Worked like a charm. I have no clue who you could ask to do something like that now.
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Old 11-16-22, 06:07 PM
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No advice about your dilemma, but a short story on bringing my shoes to a cobbler.
When I brought my cycling shoes into a cobbler (we call them shoemakers here), I thought about his reaction to the job I needed done. He took them with no questions asked. Then I looked up and he had a poster of the Russian National Cycling Team hanging behind the counter.
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Old 11-19-22, 11:58 AM
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There's an item called screw nails. Old old ones are square nails that were twisted a few turns. Your local cobbler may have them, a quick google search says they are still widely available. My original supply was handed to me by Othon Ochsner Sr. so this is a vintage approved.

I gave up on cleats a while ago and switched to pedal patches. Two ways to do it. Make and locate a rectangle of sole leather that fits between front and rear plates of your quill pedal. Attach that rectangle with barge cement, nails not needed. Or an oversize patch of leather and allow the pedal cage to wear into the leather. I will suggest a short easy ride to make a mark and then encourage the grooves with a piece of sandpaper. Long or hard rides your shoe will slide deeper into the toe clip and the grooves will be too far forward. Either way you do not need a deep or sharp edged pair of grooves.

Edit: That should be your foot will be too forward. The grooves will be too far back.
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Old 11-19-22, 12:03 PM
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Ha... Back in 89 I remember finding one of my set buried by the dog near the back yard fence chewed up like an ole favored dog bone...
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Old 11-19-22, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
There's an item called screw nails. Old old ones are square nails that were twisted a few turns. Your local cobbler may have them, a quick google search says they are still widely available. My original supply was handed to me by Othon Ochsner Sr. so this is a vintage approved.

I gave up on cleats a while ago and switched to pedal patches. Two ways to do it. Make and locate a rectangle of sole leather that fits between front and rear plates of your quill pedal. Attach that rectangle with barge cement, nails not needed. Or an oversize patch of leather and allow the pedal cage to wear into the leather. I will suggest a short easy ride to make a mark and then encourage the grooves with a piece of sandpaper. Long or hard rides your shoe will slide deeper into the toe clip and the grooves will be too far forward. Either way you do not need a deep or sharp edged pair of grooves.

Edit: That should be your foot will be too forward. The grooves will be too far back.
Thanks for the suggestion of the patches. Sounds like the best solution for how these shoes get used: Vintage rides, walking around before the start, at rest stops, and maybe up a hill. Cleats weren’t designed for those activities. I’m well past the time when I’m worried about pulling a foot out during a sprint so depth of the cleat isn’t an issue. Plus it sounds like replacement of worn patches wouldn’t harm the sole.

and while I didn’t ever get any nails from Oschner Sr., his son did point me to some good restaurants…….
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Old 11-19-22, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Spadoni
Thanks for the suggestion of the patches. Sounds like the best solution for how these shoes get used: Vintage rides, walking around before the start, at rest stops, and maybe up a hill. Cleats weren’t designed for those activities. I’m well past the time when I’m worried about pulling a foot out during a sprint so depth of the cleat isn’t an issue. Plus it sounds like replacement of worn patches wouldn’t harm the sole.

and while I didn’t ever get any nails from Oschner Sr., his son did point me to some good restaurants…….

Othon had a career as a chef, his son was a gourmand. They knew restaurants.

I still do small sprints and don't pull out. Cannot guarantee you won't. Depth of groove in leather will look like not much, you will feel it and be located. Careful with the sandpaper, most of the wear should be from the pedal. About when it is worn out and ready for replacement it might look like slots. Works about same early and late.

This is an old way of doing it. It was done most everywhere and favored by tourist riders. Another good feature is it sharply reduces wear on cage plates. Back when you could always get another pair of 1037/a and the Lyotards were just stuff it hardly mattered if the cleat chewed up the plate. Now it is nice to see the pedal getting used and not showing it.
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