So ... what are the latest thoughts on carbon clinchers and rim brakes?
09-18-17, 01:42 PM
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I am considering building a lightweight endurance-geometry frame which would be more comfortable (more relaxed riding position, wider tires) for longer rides than my Workswell 066.
The question I am facing is rim brakes and deepish carbon clinchers with potentially questionable braking ability and the potential of wearing out the (rather more expensive) rim or disc brakes, in which case I could offset the weight lost with CF wheels with discs and heavier calipers. (I always seek to avoid unnecessary weight loss.)
With CF rims I can get lighter wheels for the same money--but light wheels which don't stop or don't last .... not such a bargain.
So ... does anyone here ride CF rims with caliper brakes, and how bad is it/are they?
The question I am facing is rim brakes and deepish carbon clinchers with potentially questionable braking ability and the potential of wearing out the (rather more expensive) rim or disc brakes, in which case I could offset the weight lost with CF wheels with discs and heavier calipers. (I always seek to avoid unnecessary weight loss.)
With CF rims I can get lighter wheels for the same money--but light wheels which don't stop or don't last .... not such a bargain.
So ... does anyone here ride CF rims with caliper brakes, and how bad is it/are they?
09-18-17, 02:19 PM
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you are better off getting a custom build with a decent spoke count and which weighs 200 grams more than the Zipp 202 which weigh 1450 grams (200 grams weighs a bit more than a few M&M's .... or fill your waterbottle 3/4 instead of full)
09-18-17, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Zipp's website
Set Weight 1375g
Max recommended rider weight (lbs) 250lbs
Max recommended rider weight (lbs) 250lbs
09-18-17, 02:53 PM
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here is where I stand: I originally planned to go with disc brakes and carbon clinchers--clinchers because if I am trying to do a century, I want to be able to replace/repair tubes whenever needed. I have gotten two and once three flats on a shot ride ... and if I am 50 miles from home ... that's a lot farther than I want to walk.
Carbon so I could do 38-mm semi-aero rims and not have big weight---and discs because of rim wear and wet braking.
It is great to say "Don't ride if it looks like rain," but if I am on six- or seven-hour ride .... weather happens. If I decide to take a cycling trip to say, ride some hilly terrain, and one a week-long cycling vacation (CC touring or out-and backs from hotels/hostels/campsites each day) and it rains, and I am on hilly terrain ... vacation time is Very rare and I would need to ride regardless.
That idea--that I wanted a bike I could Always ride, anywhere paved or close to it---was the initial motivation and the initial motivation for discs. I prefer rim brakes because they are lighter and work as well ... unless I was say, on a road which didn't look like packed earth and gravel on the map, but when I crested the hill, turned out to be ... and since it is only drizzling ....
I have a dedicated rain bike, but it is heavy compared to my speedy road bike (speedy indicating potential, if it had a decent motor.) I really feel the difference--and I want a wide-tire century bike with enough luggage space for a rain jacket and a spare bottle which weighs a lot less than my rain bike, which is also my grocery and light-touring bike.
People scoff at the idea of building a new bike with rim brakes ... but for most riders doing most riding, rims brakes are just fine and a lot lighter (Hy-Rd calipers 205 each, 105 calipers like 175 ... plus discs, plus fluid, plus through-axles ... Also, disc-ready wheels seem to cost a little more and are heavier themselves. I am looking at a really light frame with heavy hardware all of a sudden.
I am torn on this ... and I understand the disc/rim brake debate pretty well, having rim brakes, and hydro and mech discs on different bikes. I really want light weight and I really want disc brakes for the "just in case" .... so I obviously have to compromise.
What I have no experience with, is carbon clinchers with rim brakes. That seemed like the one option I hadn't explored, and with the Chinabomb option I could get under 1400 grams for under $400 ... which suits the bank account nicely.
The idea of really sorry braking in the rain though .... it is a serious consideration. From what people say, it isn't "As bad as calipers on alloy" it is "Worse that calipers on steel rims:" (for you old folks) Plus it eats the CF rims. Plus I hear way too many horror stories about Chinese wheels .... the well-known brands are good, but cost more and the others are crapshoots.
These are the kind of hyper-important First-World issues I have to weigh.
The life of a cyclist is hardest not on climbs or into a headwind, but shopping online.
Carbon so I could do 38-mm semi-aero rims and not have big weight---and discs because of rim wear and wet braking.
It is great to say "Don't ride if it looks like rain," but if I am on six- or seven-hour ride .... weather happens. If I decide to take a cycling trip to say, ride some hilly terrain, and one a week-long cycling vacation (CC touring or out-and backs from hotels/hostels/campsites each day) and it rains, and I am on hilly terrain ... vacation time is Very rare and I would need to ride regardless.
That idea--that I wanted a bike I could Always ride, anywhere paved or close to it---was the initial motivation and the initial motivation for discs. I prefer rim brakes because they are lighter and work as well ... unless I was say, on a road which didn't look like packed earth and gravel on the map, but when I crested the hill, turned out to be ... and since it is only drizzling ....
I have a dedicated rain bike, but it is heavy compared to my speedy road bike (speedy indicating potential, if it had a decent motor.) I really feel the difference--and I want a wide-tire century bike with enough luggage space for a rain jacket and a spare bottle which weighs a lot less than my rain bike, which is also my grocery and light-touring bike.
People scoff at the idea of building a new bike with rim brakes ... but for most riders doing most riding, rims brakes are just fine and a lot lighter (Hy-Rd calipers 205 each, 105 calipers like 175 ... plus discs, plus fluid, plus through-axles ... Also, disc-ready wheels seem to cost a little more and are heavier themselves. I am looking at a really light frame with heavy hardware all of a sudden.
I am torn on this ... and I understand the disc/rim brake debate pretty well, having rim brakes, and hydro and mech discs on different bikes. I really want light weight and I really want disc brakes for the "just in case" .... so I obviously have to compromise.
What I have no experience with, is carbon clinchers with rim brakes. That seemed like the one option I hadn't explored, and with the Chinabomb option I could get under 1400 grams for under $400 ... which suits the bank account nicely.
The idea of really sorry braking in the rain though .... it is a serious consideration. From what people say, it isn't "As bad as calipers on alloy" it is "Worse that calipers on steel rims:" (for you old folks) Plus it eats the CF rims. Plus I hear way too many horror stories about Chinese wheels .... the well-known brands are good, but cost more and the others are crapshoots.
These are the kind of hyper-important First-World issues I have to weigh.
The life of a cyclist is hardest not on climbs or into a headwind, but shopping online.
09-18-17, 03:45 PM
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generally agree but will toss in one positive here, no need to worry about braking performance or wear on the rim brake track if you have disc. not a big deal if you ride predominately on clean roads in dry conditions. venture into the wet, unpaved MUP's and general nasty conditions and disc/carbon seems like it would be a better option. personally I was floored at how noticeable the grit was on my AL rims in the wet, seems like every single piece of dust/dirt got onto the brake track and sounded/felt like i was using sandpaper to stop. myself, after that experience, I rethought my desire to have carbon wheels with rim brakes.
i dont necessarily worry about grit on the carbon surfaces. i dont see much evidence of them anyway - they probably get swept away during braking. what is more worrying is the grit that gets embedded in the brake pads that ends up chewing the brake track
09-18-17, 04:18 PM
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here is where I stand: I originally planned to go with disc brakes and carbon clinchers--clinchers because if I am trying to do a century, I want to be able to replace/repair tubes whenever needed. I have gotten two and once three flats on a shot ride ... and if I am 50 miles from home ... that's a lot farther than I want to walk.
.
.
09-18-17, 05:03 PM
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to be honest, that was my thought aswell, but the OP stated that he wanted rim brakes.
Nothing wrong with rim brakes if you use the correct brake pads, but from what I have heard and read, carbon rims with rim brakes in the wet is not good, no matter which pads you use
I've never had a bike with hydraulic disk brakes and thru axles, as my 2 bikes are old. But, if I were to build a new bike from scratch, disc brakes would be a priority
Nothing wrong with rim brakes if you use the correct brake pads, but from what I have heard and read, carbon rims with rim brakes in the wet is not good, no matter which pads you use
I've never had a bike with hydraulic disk brakes and thru axles, as my 2 bikes are old. But, if I were to build a new bike from scratch, disc brakes would be a priority
09-18-17, 05:10 PM
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It is great to say "Don't ride if it looks like rain," but if I am on six- or seven-hour ride .... weather happens. If I decide to take a cycling trip to say, ride some hilly terrain, and one a week-long cycling vacation (CC touring or out-and backs from hotels/hostels/campsites ea
Right now we're breathing a sigh of relief as fire-season ending rains pour down out of the sky. We've waited three months or longer for them. I was watering my garden twice a day in July and August. We've had median fires on the freeway. And this is the wet side of the mountains, to the east it's a rain shadowed desert. Ephrata boasts 300 days a year of sunshine. What I'm saying is you can find reliable dry to ride in. Climate patterns are pretty steady and weather forecasting is pretty good.
09-18-17, 05:41 PM
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On that note, @Maelochs, the Methow Valley is one of the best places in the PNW to ride, and reliably dry from June through mid September. There is easily a week of great road riding, there are also great MTB and hiking trails, and a good LBS to rent you a trail bike. Plenty of great hotels and restaurants. Beth and I love the Rivers Edge Resort in Winthrop, there are private hot tubs with each cabin.
The second weekend in October is prime larch viewing.
The second weekend in October is prime larch viewing.
09-18-17, 05:52 PM
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here is where I stand: I originally planned to go with disc brakes and carbon clinchers--clinchers because if I am trying to do a century, I want to be able to replace/repair tubes whenever needed. I have gotten two and once three flats on a shot ride ... and if I am 50 miles from home ... that's a lot farther than I want to walk.
Carbon so I could do 38-mm semi-aero rims and not have big weight---and discs because of rim wear and wet braking.
It is great to say "Don't ride if it looks like rain," but if I am on six- or seven-hour ride .... weather happens. If I decide to take a cycling trip to say, ride some hilly terrain, and one a week-long cycling vacation (CC touring or out-and backs from hotels/hostels/campsites each day) and it rains, and I am on hilly terrain ... vacation time is Very rare and I would need to ride regardless.
That idea--that I wanted a bike I could Always ride, anywhere paved or close to it---was the initial motivation and the initial motivation for discs. I prefer rim brakes because they are lighter and work as well ... unless I was say, on a road which didn't look like packed earth and gravel on the map, but when I crested the hill, turned out to be ... and since it is only drizzling ....
I have a dedicated rain bike, but it is heavy compared to my speedy road bike (speedy indicating potential, if it had a decent motor.) I really feel the difference--and I want a wide-tire century bike with enough luggage space for a rain jacket and a spare bottle which weighs a lot less than my rain bike, which is also my grocery and light-touring bike.
People scoff at the idea of building a new bike with rim brakes ... but for most riders doing most riding, rims brakes are just fine and a lot lighter (Hy-Rd calipers 205 each, 105 calipers like 175 ... plus discs, plus fluid, plus through-axles ... Also, disc-ready wheels seem to cost a little more and are heavier themselves. I am looking at a really light frame with heavy hardware all of a sudden.
I am torn on this ... and I understand the disc/rim brake debate pretty well, having rim brakes, and hydro and mech discs on different bikes. I really want light weight and I really want disc brakes for the "just in case" .... so I obviously have to compromise.
What I have no experience with, is carbon clinchers with rim brakes. That seemed like the one option I hadn't explored, and with the Chinabomb option I could get under 1400 grams for under $400 ... which suits the bank account nicely.
The idea of really sorry braking in the rain though .... it is a serious consideration. From what people say, it isn't "As bad as calipers on alloy" it is "Worse that calipers on steel rims:" (for you old folks) Plus it eats the CF rims. Plus I hear way too many horror stories about Chinese wheels .... the well-known brands are good, but cost more and the others are crapshoots.
These are the kind of hyper-important First-World issues I have to weigh.
The life of a cyclist is hardest not on climbs or into a headwind, but shopping online.
Carbon so I could do 38-mm semi-aero rims and not have big weight---and discs because of rim wear and wet braking.
It is great to say "Don't ride if it looks like rain," but if I am on six- or seven-hour ride .... weather happens. If I decide to take a cycling trip to say, ride some hilly terrain, and one a week-long cycling vacation (CC touring or out-and backs from hotels/hostels/campsites each day) and it rains, and I am on hilly terrain ... vacation time is Very rare and I would need to ride regardless.
That idea--that I wanted a bike I could Always ride, anywhere paved or close to it---was the initial motivation and the initial motivation for discs. I prefer rim brakes because they are lighter and work as well ... unless I was say, on a road which didn't look like packed earth and gravel on the map, but when I crested the hill, turned out to be ... and since it is only drizzling ....
I have a dedicated rain bike, but it is heavy compared to my speedy road bike (speedy indicating potential, if it had a decent motor.) I really feel the difference--and I want a wide-tire century bike with enough luggage space for a rain jacket and a spare bottle which weighs a lot less than my rain bike, which is also my grocery and light-touring bike.
People scoff at the idea of building a new bike with rim brakes ... but for most riders doing most riding, rims brakes are just fine and a lot lighter (Hy-Rd calipers 205 each, 105 calipers like 175 ... plus discs, plus fluid, plus through-axles ... Also, disc-ready wheels seem to cost a little more and are heavier themselves. I am looking at a really light frame with heavy hardware all of a sudden.
I am torn on this ... and I understand the disc/rim brake debate pretty well, having rim brakes, and hydro and mech discs on different bikes. I really want light weight and I really want disc brakes for the "just in case" .... so I obviously have to compromise.
What I have no experience with, is carbon clinchers with rim brakes. That seemed like the one option I hadn't explored, and with the Chinabomb option I could get under 1400 grams for under $400 ... which suits the bank account nicely.
The idea of really sorry braking in the rain though .... it is a serious consideration. From what people say, it isn't "As bad as calipers on alloy" it is "Worse that calipers on steel rims:" (for you old folks) Plus it eats the CF rims. Plus I hear way too many horror stories about Chinese wheels .... the well-known brands are good, but cost more and the others are crapshoots.
These are the kind of hyper-important First-World issues I have to weigh.
The life of a cyclist is hardest not on climbs or into a headwind, but shopping online.
of all the compromises you have to make, the easiest one to give up is weight. probably the most incompatible characteristic for touring.
just get an alloy-carbon wheelset like from HED or FFWD. reasonably light , if you compare it against a mid range mavic , and still have the advantages of being modern, wide, and aero. and theyre also offered by chinese dealers (yoeleo)
09-18-17, 08:07 PM
#38
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09-18-17, 08:25 PM
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On that note, @Maelochs, the Methow Valley is one of the best places in the PNW to ride, and reliably dry from June through mid September. There is easily a week of great road riding, there are also great MTB and hiking trails, and a good LBS to rent you a trail bike. Plenty of great hotels and restaurants. Beth and I love the Rivers Edge Resort in Winthrop, there are private hot tubs with each cabin. The second weekend in October is prime larch viewing.
Thanks for this. This is the kind of thing I might get the wife to tolerate, or I could ditch her with friends in San Francisco for a week ... I mean, let her enjoy the company and hospitality of her friends in SF, of course.
I am noting all this stuff ... you r names are going in my Permanent records ... the guy who suggested all those great routes near Jacksonville Florida, and all the best suggestions. I haven’t gone on a solo cycling vacation for a couple years so I might be about due ... luckily I am quite skilled at making the spouse tired of seeing me ...
But yeah ... I am not sure how much reduced wet-weather braking would be an issue. Here in Flatahoma I have to ride almost fifty miles to get to a decent sized mound ... so I guess wet-weather braking might not matter.
It is always possible something will break which cannot be repaired or rigged roadside. A BB could seize or a pedal .... a crank arm could work loose and strip out the big end .... a chain stay could crack, or really any weld. Or simply two tires could tear so badly that they cannot be booted. I carry a spare tire, but not two, as a rule, when loaded touring ....
I suppose if everything went South, I would hide everything well off the road under a bunch of branches and dirt and hike out and hitchhike until I had cell reception or to the nearest town where I could rent a car.
At some point, one has to trust the gear. I cannot or rather will not tour with a second bike on a Bob trailer behind me. (In any case, I would use my rain bike with mech discs if I were doing loaded touring. The century bike would be for CC or maybe overnight bike-packing stuff at most.)
Probably tomorrow I will have changed my mind again. No matter .... the longer I wait to make up my mind, the more cash i will have amassed in the bike fund.
09-19-17, 03:48 AM
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I ride CF wheels pretty much all the time on the road,
& braking is not an issue, wet or dry.
They are tubulars, so heat dissipation and weight are favorable. The 55mm ones are as light as very light alloy clinchers.
In the winter/wet, I'm more concerned w/ tire cuts but if it's really gritty then rim wear is an issue- same for alloy rims and disc pads.
Disagree w/ kbarch about comfort on long rides-
the 55mm wheels are just faster which can mean 1/2 hr less time on the bike over a long day. Not relaxing when it's really windy,
but the 35mm ones gain a little speed and are fine in gusty wind.
I've bought cast-off race wheels for little $ so not the end of the world if they get scratched or wear out.
I would not use carbon clinchers if I lived in Colorado or such.
& braking is not an issue, wet or dry.
They are tubulars, so heat dissipation and weight are favorable. The 55mm ones are as light as very light alloy clinchers.
In the winter/wet, I'm more concerned w/ tire cuts but if it's really gritty then rim wear is an issue- same for alloy rims and disc pads.
Disagree w/ kbarch about comfort on long rides-
the 55mm wheels are just faster which can mean 1/2 hr less time on the bike over a long day. Not relaxing when it's really windy,
but the 35mm ones gain a little speed and are fine in gusty wind.
I've bought cast-off race wheels for little $ so not the end of the world if they get scratched or wear out.
I would not use carbon clinchers if I lived in Colorado or such.
Seriously, though, I imagine there's some tipping point along the continuum of flat-to-hilly riding environments where my mind would change.
09-19-17, 04:06 AM
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OP, buy some light alloy clinchers, save a grand and call it good....or make sure you have your life insurance paid up to take care of little Johnny.
09-19-17, 07:56 AM
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Deep-dish Chicago-style pizza ... cheaper and always satisfying.
09-19-17, 08:13 AM
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I have the Giant P-SLR1 'Carbon Climbing' as they call it 30mm clinchers. I have only used the Giant pads that came with it so perhaps i dont have the most conclusive opinion on them, but rim braking is less consistent under hard braking on long descents as you get brake fade and wobbly feedback to the levers compared to what you get with a wheel with an alloy braking surface.
You can lock a wheel decisively and a prompt stop when you need to on an aluminum rim with a good squeeze and lever pressure, whereas with this carbon set my methology is numerous shorter squeezes to avoid that feedback and more precautionary.
I wouldn't mind them on a disc based bike in the future, but my next set of wheels need an aluminum braking track at the least.
If anyone has a suggestion for some good pads that work well for them, i'm all ears.
You can lock a wheel decisively and a prompt stop when you need to on an aluminum rim with a good squeeze and lever pressure, whereas with this carbon set my methology is numerous shorter squeezes to avoid that feedback and more precautionary.
I wouldn't mind them on a disc based bike in the future, but my next set of wheels need an aluminum braking track at the least.
If anyone has a suggestion for some good pads that work well for them, i'm all ears.
09-19-17, 09:11 AM
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Hope you don’t mind, here are a couple pictures of larix occidentalis, the lower altitude Western Larch. You can see these from paved roads too. Larix lyalliis is even more majestic, but harder to see from the road. They’re soft to the touch, like cat fur. And they only grow in scenic places.
If you ever decide to come out here – and you should, we have the best roads for cycling – drop me a line and I’ll help you come up with some routes.
09-19-17, 10:09 AM
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alloy brake track are often grooved, either by design or through wear. thats what catches grit.
i dont necessarily worry about grit on the carbon surfaces. i dont see much evidence of them anyway - they probably get swept away during braking. what is more worrying is the grit that gets embedded in the brake pads that ends up chewing the brake track
i dont necessarily worry about grit on the carbon surfaces. i dont see much evidence of them anyway - they probably get swept away during braking. what is more worrying is the grit that gets embedded in the brake pads that ends up chewing the brake track
09-19-17, 10:42 AM
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very well could be my own paranoia, still, it made me cringe to think about pads grinding my $1500-2000 carbon wheels down. I also ride a lot on the unpaved MUP so there's still a concern with gravel/limestone dust being kicked up everywhere. probably unfounded but still...
09-19-17, 11:21 AM
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I ride tubular Boyd 44 carbon wheels. I have experimented with different brake pads to find those which work the best - for me. Campy red pads and the Deda blue pads work really well and the braking is not all that bad. When in the rain, you pump them 4 or 5 times to dry out the rims and pads and they work almost as well as in dry conditions.
09-19-17, 11:34 AM
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