crank_addict

More content / March of 1973
thanks to Eugene Sloane

crank_addict

1974 Tour of Somerville winner Ron Skarin riding Teledyne Titan number 0001666.

steelbikeguy

That Mossberg frame is pretty interesting! I wonder when they realized that they had to make the rear end more rigid, and what did it ride like without the extra seat stays??

I think they barely got into production with the Mossberg.. based on some vaguely remembered conversations. Anyone ever seen one in person?

Steve in Peoria

crank_addict

Doubt any volume production for the carbon but perhaps made a few. They showed both a track and road version. More here:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...sberg-s-2.html

I certainly would like to see the Hi-ten frameset complete with drillium fork blades. Built bikes in 1974 had Dura Ace.

steelbikeguy

maybe combine that "drilled" fork with Roland Della Santa's Ossobuco chain stays??
...and how much would it whistle when the wind blows??....

Steve in Peoria

repechage

Way back in like 1976 Ashtabula made a solid steel fork with cross drilled fork legs... Had looks going for it.

The nod for first pierced chain stays goes to Masi I think going way back to the time when they supplied Merckx for the Faema team, on a time trial bike.
ports were elongated and tapered to match the stay profile.

crank_addict

Sloane is 'write' up there with Sheldon Brown, Fred DeLong as many of us appreciate today.

Funny tidbits-
There's more of Sloane and apparently his (loaned?) Teledyne but if that's his depicted, zoom in at the handlebars and note the cables. Awesomeness.

DeLong of Bicycling magazine and related books had quite a Franken Teledyne. Link with details.
https://bikeville.com/2014/01/23/coo...eledyne-titan/

steelbikeguy

in the early 70's, in the midst of the bike boom, I think I must have checked Sloane's book out of the library a dozen times! So much great stuff in the "Complete Book of Bicycling"!

I do appreciate the use of some of the best and most innovative brakes of the era. The Scott Superbrake is pretty slick, although I can see that you might have troubles with finding brake pads. The Magura hydraulic brakes seemed more appropriate for a touring bike. I wonder why he bothered with them on the Titan?
I will give him credit for using them on the front where they will be useful. Extra credit for being mounted on the rear of the fork, with mounts(?) that directly transfer the braking force to the fork blades.
The fact that the fork is intact either suggests that he never tried the "maximal stop" method, or that some of those Titan forks were strong enough.

Pretty neat to see the bike, regardless. Thanks for sharing!

Steve in Peoria

RobbieTunes

Cool article.

I have a set of the Tektro/TRP calipers that mount the front behind the fork, perhaps would increase the longevity of the fork, eh?

BTW, Steve, I'll ride my Titan in Chillicothe if you do it again.

steelbikeguy

I'm not sure that it makes a difference where the brake is mounted, at least in terms of risk of breaking a fragile crown. It just seemed that if you are concerned about flexible parts, delivering the forces directly to the blades seems more robust than transmitting them through the relatively small brake mounting bolt. I'm fairly sure I've seen the idea used on some horribly cheap brakes.

I'm thinking about running up to Wisconsin for a day to join in the fun, but it's all TBD. It'd be great to see you in Chillicothe again too!
I was going to suggest bringing the Titan to Hilly Hundred, but... the potholes might not be appropriate for fork with known issues.
Even Illinois potholes have been known to claim a poor fork design (this is from my Bacchetta Giro 26 'bent)




Steve in Peoria

Nemosengineer 

Hi Steve,
I have never seen a ovalized tube fracture so close to a perfect 90 degree angle, stress over time takes its toll .

: Mike

steelbikeguy

I've seen pics of other Giro forks that broke in the same way & place. There was speculation that the welded cable guide (just below the break) weakened the aluminum fork blade... maybe changed the heat treatment? It did take about 20,000 miles for it to break, so perhaps an argument could be made that the design wasn't bad, ...it just wasn't great?
On the other hand, Bacchetta was nice enough to replace it for free, despite being slightly out of warranty. The new fork was all steel, though.

By chance, my other recumbent is carbon fiber, with a carbon fiber fork. It has an extension to the steerer tube, and this extension clamps to the steerer. There was no reinforcement in the steerer where this clamp was located, and my steerer showed some signs of damage to the carbon at the location of the clamp after 5 years. It was out of warranty, and I was sold a new fork at cost. The new fork had an aluminum tube epoxied inside the steerer tube, which conforms with the standard wisdom that you should never clamp a carbon tube without something solid inside it. A fellow might assume that their original design was poor and prone to failure.
The new fork is shown below, on the left, with the original fork on the right....



I guess that this just shows that anytime someone starts using a new material or manufacturing process, or using it in a new way, there can be some learning curves... especially if you don't consult with the folks who have already made all of the dumb mistakes. Validation testing tends to find the most obvious mistakes, but some will still slip by. I've witnessed this myself in my professional life.

Bringing this back to the Titan, it's not hard to believe that their design would have problems. They were doing things that hadn't been done before. As such, it would be prudent to be conservative when using the bike.

Steve in Peoria

RobbieTunes

So bombing down the Hilly Hundred, maybe not a good idea. .
By October, I should be able to ride about any bike in the fleet on that one, but I'm thinking Bob Jackson.

crank_addict

Strange thought but I'm OK with this.

Its natural behavior by wanting the fastest, lightest, strongest - pushed upon and marketed by manufacturers, often glorified by the rigourous race 'PROVEN' product.

I think most understand and accept the risk for this stuff, but also the manufacturers need to throttle back a bit on the hype. Though in some respects I'm pleased as a consumer to walk in a shop (or online) and purchase same as the same top pro level .... essentially 'experimental'. No govt. telling me no or restricting.

Any bike or product now has the warning stickers and I'm fine with that. If one buys such product and crashes due the product, tough luck to them. Personally tired of all the whiners and anti carbon folks. They need to get over it and let progress take its course.

I'm riding lightweight purpose designed racing bikes and parts including some many decades old. I accept and understand the risk.

steelbikeguy

in regards to manufacturers trying out new ideas and having some failures, you wrote....
I agree, if only because that an engineer isn't adding any value if he/she isn't doing something new. There's just no way to survive in a market if you don't produce a new or more interesting product (with the caveat that this is specific to tech products).
Most industries either have standards that set some level of safety or durability, or the company will be smart enough to do enough testing to show that they weren't being reckless with the customer's safety, and this is normally enough to keep them safe from big legal problems. Small companies may not have the benefit of experience or legal counsel, or don't have the budget, and may skip some of this testing, with subsequent risk to the customer.

that reminds me of when I listened to Burt Rutan speak at Oshkosh in 2011. He tends to complain about gov't regulations, how NASA was too cautious, etc., but did take the time to praise the FAA(?) rule that if you just have the aircraft labeled "experimental" in sufficiently large font, there are basically no limits on how dangerous the aircraft can be.



Since that time, he's had a member of his staff die in a crash, so perhaps he's modified his criticism of NASA a bit?
His brother, Dick Rutan, and Jeanna Yeager(sp?) certainly did risk their lives when they flew Rutan's Voyager non-stop around the world, though.

Steve in Peoria
(this is "Plane Forums", right?)

steelbikeguy

what was it that our D.I.'s told us?? "You don't want to live forever, do you?".

The potholes still concern me a bit. I might bring the Hetchins, but would need to put some bigger tires on it.
Or maybe I'm just thinking of the potholes of previous years?

Steve in Peoria

RobbieTunes

I tried that line before the early no-ammo patrols in Beirut; my guys threw stuff at me.
I said "Well, we'd better just move fast then."

crank_addict

I think we're the nostalgic type but also appreciative of current design, innovations; whether actively involved or end user.

The bicycle is a fascinating machine, humbling and also simplistically complicated. It gets me that people find blame in them when something breaks.

From the very start before they even sit on one and place feet on the 'foot rest', you would expect one could fall over and hurt themself, because....ah, it only has two wheels and requires gyro principles to stay upright. LOL.

Maybe some brilliant class action suit should go for failure to install stabilizers when in stopped position.

You brought up some good points on small business and lack of resources. For a number of years I supported and partly revived a group of enthusiast for an iconic American woodworking machine. The orginal maker went through success to rapid failure but revitalization on a number of times.

The lawyers were always licking their 'chops' in suits against them. But in modern day, my interest was in supporting the first generation machines >>built well over a half century ago<<. I supplied parts, old and also made new with added features and functions. We all know the dangers and liability using wood working machines, but 'get off my lawn'!

Mind you, the old company is long gone and faded away but some other company later revitalized the name and logo. I had no connection to them or their current crop of machine(s).

After recieving a letter of cease and desist for my offerings to the enthusiast exclusive and only to these old machines, I hadn't the resources nor time to further invest. Worse, it was already a hobby business and done only to support those limited in the market, consider it a labor of love. Still burns me inside. This country has blindsided itself by shuttering the innovators, old and new.

RobbieTunes

A drastic thinning of that herd would really benefit this nation.

Nemosengineer 

After a day in meetings that involved not much of anything I thought it might be fun to look at some levers. My current and favorite Modolo pro levers weigh in at about 245 grams with hoods so lets call that a benchmark.

First up is a set of Weinmann levers built up from a pile of similar drilled Weinmann levers. after weighing everything I built the lightest parts into a lever set. This is what it weighs with Cane Creek hoods. 183 grams



A set of plastic bodied CLB levers with random junk hoods. 191 grams



A drilled Mafac Course lever set with half hoods and adjusters. 219 grams.



Result is the no respect Weinmann levers wins tonight's weight weenie challenge beating the baseline Modolo Pro's by a whopping 62 grams.With aluminum screws this set would weigh 173 grams!!!



: Mike

Chombi1 

Just a note on the CLB levers you have. I noticed that it has Modolo 919 model "Anatomic" style hoods, which are much thicker (To make the hoods contour to your palms, that's why they called then "Anatomic") than the standard CLB hoods. That's why maybe, they came in a bit heavier than your Weinmann lever set.
CLB levers, like the Weinmanns you put together, also has plastic lever bodies so they should be of similar weight to your Weinmanns or quite close. Some CLB levers also have handlebar clamping bands that are single banded, and not the double banded style you have on it, so another opportunity to save a couple of grams, if you had the single banded clamp. Thing about CLBs is, they seem to be different in some way or another from one another, even if they seem to have been considered the same model. Seems like they had constant running changes to improve (or lighten?) their product as they go. Another French quirkyness thing, I assume.

steelbikeguy

I thought that Rule #1 was "always pick the part with the most holes in it"....

or maybe that was just from the days before cheap digital scales?

Steve in Peoria

RobbieTunes

Modolo made a plastic body/plastic lever brake lever, too, with the added benefit of another leverage point high up on the body, where the cable inserted about 2/3 of the way up the lever. Excellent moderation, fairly poor hand position, but very light.

Inspection of the body indicates able to be mounted in both aero and non-aero, but the hoods need a hole punched in them. Also offered by Sachs. Bodies offered in light grey and black, levers in black only, and hoods in white or black. Hoods do not get sticky, clean easily, and are not comfortable, but very durable.

crank_addict

Brake hoods, why even bother? The most ardent weight weenie go sans.

RobbieTunes

I save my ardent for romance, but I see your point.