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bonk vs fatigue

Old 07-06-21, 06:18 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
You ride 1220km without stopping? What?
Stop to eat. Not sleep or rest. Plenty of people on this thread have similar experience. Those that the post the most often? Not so much.

So, yes, I know something about bonking. Most riders try to alleviate fatigue by eating and drinking too much or blaming their leg issues on lack of fitness.

Food does not fix lack of fitness.

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Old 07-06-21, 06:31 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Most riders try to alleviate fatigue by eating and drinking too much
IME people are far more likely to eat and drink too little during a hard endurance ride. It’s really hard to over-eat if you are riding at a strong pace. Maybe you are thinking more of the coffee and cake cruisers? Obviously if you ride at recovery pace and eat a ton of sugary biscuits and soft drinks then it becomes a very different balance.
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Old 07-06-21, 06:36 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Stop to eat. Not sleep or rest. Plenty of people on this thread have similar experience. Those that the post the most often? Not so much.

So, yes, I know something about bonking. Most riders try to alleviate fatigue by eating and drinking too much or blaming their leg issues on lack of fitness.

Food does fix lack of fitness.
Nothing fixes a lack of fitness other than better fitness. You didn't get dropped because of food, it was because the other riders were stronger.
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Old 07-06-21, 09:21 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
IME people are far more likely to eat and drink too little during a hard endurance ride. It’s really hard to over-eat if you are riding at a strong pace. Maybe you are thinking more of the coffee and cake cruisers? Obviously if you ride at recovery pace and eat a ton of sugary biscuits and soft drinks then it becomes a very different balance.
I've heard of these cafe rides, but never really experienced one. I find once I'm on the bike I don't feel like stopping. I want to keep going till I'm done.
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Old 07-06-21, 09:32 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I've heard of these cafe rides, but never really experienced one. I find once I'm on the bike I don't feel like stopping. I want to keep going till I'm done.
Same here. I rarely stop and usually go straight through feed-stations on events. I just fuel on the go. I might stop for a quick pee, usually quite early on in a ride. Then I'm usually good for 6-7 hours non-stop except for topping up bottles mid-ride
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Old 07-06-21, 10:01 AM
  #131  
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Solo, I can only recall a couple instances where I've stopped at a cafe/restaurant during a ride. More trouble than they're worth - they didn't so much give me a break as they take me out of rhythm; I'd rather have some snacks on the go and leave anything resembling a proper meal for after I'm done. With the group, mid-ride stops happen, but not all that often. The character of the ride often changes after a stop, too, usually much more casual, 'cause no one wants to work with all that **** in their belly.
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Old 07-06-21, 10:28 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Solo, I can only recall a couple instances where I've stopped at a cafe/restaurant during a ride. More trouble than they're worth - they didn't so much give me a break as they take me out of rhythm; I'd rather have some snacks on the go and leave anything resembling a proper meal for after I'm done. With the group, mid-ride stops happen, but not all that often. The character of the ride often changes after a stop, too, usually much more casual, 'cause no one wants to work with all that **** in their belly.
I was watching a GCN video the other day, where they mentioned having 'Cafe Legs', which I assume meant your legs stiffening up from riding hard and then sitting on your kiester for a while before trying to ride hard again.
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Old 07-06-21, 10:37 AM
  #133  
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I have bonked several times in my life. To me it varies from fatigue in that I experience an altered level of consciousness when I bonk. In some ways it's as if I have been drugged.
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Old 07-06-21, 10:40 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
I have bonked several times in my life. To me it varies from fatigue in that I experience an altered level of consciousness when I bonk. In some ways it's as if I have been drugged.
When I bonked, I felt like my ability to think had been dialed way, way down. I don't know if I'd have been able to carry on a conversation. Probably not, at least not coherently.
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Old 07-06-21, 11:28 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
When I bonked, I felt like my ability to think had been dialed way, way down. I don't know if I'd have been able to carry on a conversation. Probably not, at least not coherently.
Same here.
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Old 07-06-21, 02:24 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I was watching a GCN video the other day, where they mentioned having 'Cafe Legs', which I assume meant your legs stiffening up from riding hard and then sitting on your kiester for a while before trying to ride hard again.
Our local club calls that feeling "lunch legs", because they often have a lunch stop on the longer rides.

Climbing something steep right after a lunch break will give you a lactic acid burn in the quads.
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Old 07-06-21, 05:24 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Our local club calls that feeling "lunch legs", because they often have a lunch stop on the longer rides.

Climbing something steep right after a lunch break will give you a lactic acid burn in the quads.

"bakery legs" in my neck of the woods.
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Old 07-06-21, 05:34 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft
"bakery legs" in my neck of the woods.
See, that's the advantage of riding alone - with no friends along to watch my bike while I go into the bakery, I can't stop and overindulge!
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Old 07-06-21, 05:51 PM
  #139  
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The bakery scene.


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Old 07-06-21, 06:01 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
These sort of posts are pointless.
What I said isn't pointless, it's the truth...I eat by feel and I know exactly how much food my body needs to give me enough energy to do what I need to do and still maintain a lean body. I am not the only one like that, there are millions of people in this world who never count calories and are healthy and never been overweight. It's laughable that people will deny themselves enough food and then complain about bonking and lack of energy to keep going.
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Old 07-06-21, 07:14 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
What I said isn't pointless, it's the truth...
Incorrect.
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Old 07-07-21, 10:09 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
What I said isn't pointless, it's the truth...I eat by feel and I know exactly how much food my body needs to give me enough energy to do what I need to do and still maintain a lean body. I am not the only one like that, there are millions of people in this world who never count calories and are healthy and never been overweight. It's laughable that people will deny themselves enough food and then complain about bonking and lack of energy to keep going.
I generally eat by feel too, but I do monitor what I eat because it's so easy to do with modern tech and it helps to optimise longer events and get faster. Most Pros use this kind of tech routinely. They don't just guess like you do and like I used to do before it became so easy to access more data. Maybe numbers just aren't your thing, which is fine. Just don't bother trying to tell everyone else they are pointless.
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Old 07-07-21, 10:44 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
What I said isn't pointless, it's the truth...I eat by feel and I know exactly how much food my body needs to give me enough energy to do what I need to do and still maintain a lean body. I am not the only one like that, there are millions of people in this world who never count calories and are healthy and never been overweight. It's laughable that people will deny themselves enough food and then complain about bonking and lack of energy to keep going.
Huh. So everyone has the same metabolism as you do, and thus your experience is universal. We can all just eat by feel and stay lean. Good to know.
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Old 07-07-21, 04:01 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Nessism
Wow, this is so WRONG.

Bonking is when your glycogen reserves are GONE. The marathon runner guys call this "hitting the wall" and this is a good analogy because when this happens it's close to a hard stop because your body shuts down.

For me it takes about 2 hours of intense riding.

I used to have a regular riding route that was 50 miles and at about the 37 mile point I've bonked several times. Fortunately, there was a store near this point and I would stop buy and grab a coke or two and chug them, which almost immediately restored my energy and allowed me to make it home. Yes, I was an idiot for allowing myself to get to that level but I was just learning about such matters back then. Anyway, there is no amount of "training your body" that can get you through a hard bonk once your glycogen levels are depleted.
I can’t speak to the science you reference in your post but I believe your marathon runner analogy is incorrect, if it makes any difference.
I did a lot of running when I was younger and heard the phrase ‘hitting the wall’ quite often and it always referred to simply running completely out of energy during a run.
But it never referred to the other symptoms I have heard when someone references bonking.
When you hit the wall running you didn’t experience things such as dizziness, disorientation, or anything that would be considered a medical issue.
You simply could not make your legs move one bit faster.
It only happened to me a couple times while racing and it was a bit embarrassing as I knew in my case it had been caused by me going too hard in the early stages of the race.
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Old 07-07-21, 04:22 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster
I can’t speak to the science you reference in your post but I believe your marathon runner analogy is incorrect, if it makes any difference.
I did a lot of running when I was younger and heard the phrase ‘hitting the wall’ quite often and it always referred to simply running completely out of energy during a run.
But it never referred to the other symptoms I have heard when someone references bonking.
When you hit the wall running you didn’t experience things such as dizziness, disorientation, or anything that would be considered a medical issue.
You simply could not make your legs move one bit faster.
It only happened to me a couple times while racing and it was a bit embarrassing as I knew in my case it had been caused by me going too hard in the early stages of the race.
Pretty sure it's the same thing. Blood sugar level falls off a cliff. How that affects someone may vary I suppose, but it puts close to a hard stop on your activity, whatever it may be.
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Old 07-07-21, 06:51 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by Nessism
Pretty sure it's the same thing. Blood sugar level falls off a cliff. How that affects someone may vary I suppose, but it puts close to a hard stop on your activity, whatever it may be.
I guess, but almost every time I read or hear about a cyclist bonking they reference medical symptoms such as dizziness and disorientation, and quite often they also reference ending up on the ground somehow.
I never once heard of that happening with the large amount of runners I knew.
Not saying it might not have ever happened.
Just pointing out that it’s not the same imo

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Old 07-08-21, 06:39 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by Awesomeguy
how do you tell bonk from fatigue
Bonk = acute
Fatigue = chronic

Bonk is a more immediate metabolic state you get into. Fatigue is a physiological situation driven by your training choices in the days/weeks leading up to it.

That's about all there is to it for me.

Fatigue was me driving my TSB way way way negative while family was out of town and I just rode all the time. Bonk was that time I didn't eat breakfast and rode too high a zone for too long and got to hour 3 and was hunting for a gas station ASAP.
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Old 07-08-21, 06:51 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
IME people are far more likely to eat and drink too little during a hard endurance ride. It’s really hard to over-eat if you are riding at a strong pace. Maybe you are thinking more of the coffee and cake cruisers? Obviously if you ride at recovery pace and eat a ton of sugary biscuits and soft drinks then it becomes a very different balance.
It sounds like you are much stronger than me. I am just a randonneur but I have done TABR and other long distance stuff. I used to race Cat 3 when I was younger. I have never really found good studies on long rides. For running, I like Tim Noakes.

I did a 400km brevet in just over 13 hours and ate an average of 150 calories per hour and a little less per hour for 600K in under 24 hours.

It has been my observation that randonneurs who try to eat as much as you suggest end up with nausea and/or puking. I think hyponatremia is at least as common as dehydration and far more damaging. Probably a better place for information on eating and drinking on long events would come from ultra marathoners in the mountains.

If you are talking about a dinky 2-3 hour ride, why bother eating.
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Old 07-08-21, 06:59 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I was watching a GCN video the other day, where they mentioned having 'Cafe Legs', which I assume meant your legs stiffening up from riding hard and then sitting on your kiester for a while before trying to ride hard again.
When I think of cafe legs, it means the rest stop was long enough for the peripheral vascular system to constrict and when you start back up, perfusion is impaired. Onset of lactic acid begins at a lower power level than when you rolled into the Cafe with legs all warm. As I get older, it takes longer to get going again.
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Old 07-08-21, 06:59 AM
  #150  
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Only time I remember bonking was in my very first endurance road ride as a teenager. It was a 100 mile Sportive event at a fast pace and I simply didn’t eat or drink enough. About 70 miles in I just suddenly felt extremely weak and shaky. Went straight into the nearest shop and ate a couple of Mars bars, washed down with a full sugar coke. I didn’t fully recover, but it was enough to get rid of the shakes and keep on riding. I did the same event the following year and fuelled it much better. I’ve never had that feeling since. But I’ll always remember how easily those Mars bars went down and the almost instant energy boost. Normally I would be gagging on eating half a bar of that crap!
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