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Steel is real . . . breakable

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Steel is real . . . breakable

Old 02-13-22, 12:49 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by bulgie
Is it actually a proven fix, to weld right adjacent to the brass braze like that? I've always told people it was a bad idea, because the copper and zinc and other stuff in the brass would vaporize and make your weld all frothy and brittle. Have I been handing out misinformation? I'll admit my evidence that "it's bad" is limited to maybe one or two welds I saw that looked frothy and brittle due to brass in the vicinity, but I didn't do any testing on the welds to see if they were actually sound. That and getting the same advice from one or two old heads who also stated it as if it were a rule. (Confirmation bias, didn't question it because it was what I already believed.)

So I will bow to anyone with actual experience doing this, if you tell me it was reliable afterward. Oh and I guess I'll have to apologize to all the people I misinformed, talking as if I knew something.
Is it because that small amount of brass is just insignificant in a big 'ol MIG weld? Is there any special trick to making it successful?

A couple quotations come to mind, though I don't know who originated them:
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
"It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so." (Before you say it's Mark Twain, know that at least some Twain researchers have found no evidence of it. But it could still be him.)
I've welded various things, close to brazes, and I'm pretty confident I can make this one work. I choose mig because it's more resistant to contamination. As you point out, this is partially because it's going to be a thicker bead laid down very quickly. That means I'll have to carve the crack into a V-groove of sorts, and I'll do a couple passes to fill it up. These dropouts are quite thick, so that works to my advantage. Most of these passes will be far enough from the braze that contamination will be unlikely. On the passes that are very close to the braze, I'll try to use less heat (all I need to do is tie in) and go even faster, to minimize how much I heat up the braze and draw metal from it. In addition, I have been told that the chemistry of mig wire is more tolerant of contaminants and the whole setup is designed to bring contaminants to the surface. That's why mig wire can be coated with copper and still works for welding steel. It can deal with it. The copper plating from the wire can sometimes be seen on a finished mig weld, having floated to the top as a little copper dot. It has certainly been my experience that it takes more contamination to make a mig weld porous than it does to ruin a tig weld, all else being equal. If I had easy access to a machine set up for fluxcore wire-feed, instead of gas-shielded "true" MIG, I'd be interested to try that out on brazed metal to see if it can just blow all the filler out of the way with the flux. I don't have much experience with fluxcore wire-feed, however, and don't quite have permission to go changing the machines around for little experiments.

Originally Posted by ColonelSanders
Do you have a breakdown of the weight of frame and fork?
Not at all! I've just got a couple friends who ride Breezer Uptowns, and I've repaired them so I've handled them quite a bit. I've picked them up, front end and back end, and I feel like they are pretty heavy on both ends! But in Joe Breeze's defense, for a long time the Breezer was the only affordable thing you could get, from factory, with fenders, racks, and lights - at least in this country. Sure, we have Workcycles and other niche manufacturers, but they are quite costly. Jan Heine did a review of some kind of Breezer Uptown in an early BQ (back when it was VBQ). One of his critiques was that it was too heavy, if I recall correctly. The response from Joe Breeze was something like "you try making an affordable, full-featured commuter for under $1000 and see if you can do better on weight!" I agree with that.
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Old 02-13-22, 05:08 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by scarlson
I've welded various things, close to brazes, and I'm pretty confident I can make this one work. I choose mig because it's more resistant to contamination.
Cool, now I wanna get me a MIG welder! I have only been a TIG guy so far. Mostly self-taught and hardly past Beginner status. I took a Ti framebuilding class from Gary Helfrich and went on to weld titanium frames at Davidson and at Ti Cycles, and a few dozen (maybe a hundred?) steel frames including stainless, so my welding experience has mostly been on extremely clean things. I don't love spatter and fumes, but I could learn to love it for the extreme ease and speed of MIG. I'm making a Jeremy Schmidt belt grinder:

I've cut out the pieces but haven't started welding yet. Figured I'd TIG weld it since I have one, but it's amazing to watch Jer weld his with MIG, so damn fast. A good MIG welder is a chunk of change though, would make my new belt grinder very expensive! I'm afraid I wouldn't use it enough after the grinder build to make it pay for itself.

Anyway, thanks for educating me.

Mark B

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Old 02-13-22, 06:28 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by ColonelSanders
Do you have a breakdown of the weight of frame and fork?
Weight of frame, fork, and headset is 8.3 lbs on my hanging scale. It’s likely size L as my colleague must be at least 6’2”. So not exactly a svelte frame.
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Old 02-13-22, 06:58 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by nlerner
... I'll be switching parts over to either a Raleigh Gran Sport or a Peugeot UO-8 (both of which offer some complications, but they're the right size).
Won't help. I broke a 1973 UO-8 frame at the other end of the drive side chainstay, between the tire and chainring clearance dimples.
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Old 02-13-22, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Weight of frame, fork, and headset is 8.3 lbs on my hanging scale. It’s likely size L as my colleague must be at least 6’2”. So not exactly a svelte frame.
No, but still lighter than my Surly Troll.
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Old 02-14-22, 12:24 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by bulgie
Is it actually a proven fix, to weld right adjacent to the brass braze like that? I've always told people it was a bad idea, because the copper and zinc and other stuff in the brass would vaporize and make your weld all frothy and brittle. Have I been handing out misinformation? I'll admit my evidence that "it's bad" is limited to maybe one or two welds I saw that looked frothy and brittle due to brass in the vicinity, but I didn't do any testing on the welds to see if they were actually sound. That and getting the same advice from one or two old heads who also stated it as if it were a rule. (Confirmation bias, didn't question it because it was what I already believed.)

So I will bow to anyone with actual experience doing this, if you tell me it was reliable afterward. Oh and I guess I'll have to apologize to all the people I misinformed, talking as if I knew something.
Is it because that small amount of brass is just insignificant in a big 'ol MIG weld? Is there any special trick to making it successful?

A couple quotations come to mind, though I don't know who originated them:
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
"It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so." (Before you say it's Mark Twain, know that at least some Twain researchers have found no evidence of it. But it could still be him.)
Somewhat anecdotal, but I have 2 bikes that I repaired exactly this way that I’ve ridden for several years with no issues.
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Old 02-17-22, 10:13 PM
  #32  
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@scarlson has done the deed!




And with some non-matching paint:



Thanks, Sam!
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Old 02-17-22, 10:42 PM
  #33  
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Simple fix ....have a skilled welder put it back together
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Old 02-17-22, 11:01 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by merziac
I wouldn't expect any help but would jump on the opportunity to ring the question the quality bell, giving some corporate shill the chance to do the right thing.

I would rather have a frame fixed by an accomplished craftsman than a suspect replacement from the company that didn't get it right the first time around.
?
I just read the thread twice. I did not see any data regarding the sale of the frame, prior maintenance, exposure to corrosion, moisture, provenance, a complete analysis of the actual frame washing, drying, use, abuse, proper or improper care, and the many variables that may explain the failure. Many frames fail there, many rust there, some fail due to defects, based on quality control or lack thereof, but I saw no information that indicated, without doubt, that Joe Breezer or any bike manufacturer was to blame.

I do see assumptions that appear to be baseless given the information contained in the thread.

We have no way of knowing if “the right thing” is to provide a replacement or tell the owner to go jump in a lake.
We have no way of knowing if the company “didn’t get it right the first time.”
We don’t know if a “corporate shill” would be assigned to the situation, or even if there are any corporate shills there, just waiting for a chance to “do the right thing,” however that’s defined.

Weep holes in frames get plugged. Moisture collects inside.
Salt and other corrosives can accelerate the deterioration, and the frame can fail.
Or, the frame could be defective. Or even something else!

Statistically, one is more likely to occur than the other.

Prior to actually seeing what caused it, assumptions are like the people making them.
Often inaccurate.

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Old 02-17-22, 11:55 PM
  #35  
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I've long believed that the flexing of poorly-supported freewheel-hub axles is what causes most of these dropout failures.
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Old 02-18-22, 12:22 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by dddd
I've long believed that the flexing of poorly-supported freewheel-hub axles is what causes most of these dropout failures.
I was just about to post this when I saw you'd said the same. I'd been thinking it on the ride back from the shop, from welding this. Maybe the bike shop that sold the VO wheel wasn't that crazy after all. Maybe the axle of the original wheel was broken or badly bent, and that's the problem they fixed! It explains why they'd miss the frame being broken, too. The thing probably felt a good deal more solid after replacing the wheel.
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Old 02-18-22, 12:37 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by dddd
I've long believed that the flexing of poorly-supported freewheel-hub axles is what causes most of these dropout failures.
In this case I think the root cause was the incredible torque applied by Neal's massive legs. They're light as well.

Pic cause, you know...

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Old 02-18-22, 06:22 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by nlerner
@scarlson has done the deed!
Well that certainly came out great. Better than I expected when I heard "MIG weld". Perfection even — bravo!

Mark B
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Old 02-18-22, 06:33 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by nlerner
@scarlson has done the deed!


Well, that's some fine work - I can't even tell where the break was.




@scarlson

DD
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Old 02-18-22, 06:35 PM
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The 2 aforementioned shops would now be in the distinct category of places NOT to go

How do you say STOO-PID ?!
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Old 02-18-22, 07:50 PM
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Thanks for all the accolades!!

I did a lot of grinding and filing to get it to look like that. As usual, I was way too involved in the job to get any pictures of the process. I'm sorry!
I taught myself to weld back in the day mainly by reading pipefitters' training documentation. It pretty neatly translates over to dropouts: thick steel, welded in multiple passes. There's a lot of concern with getting the right sort of v-groove, and then they do a whole routine of "weld, grind, repeat". That's what I did here, but it's a little less extreme because this stuff isn't so thick!

I just hope it holds together! A well-aligned dropout will go a long ways. When I was done welding, the dropouts were spaced funny (of course). Neal will have to spread the frame and re-align before all's said and done.
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Old 02-18-22, 10:26 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by scarlson
I just hope it holds together! A well-aligned dropout will go a long ways. When I was done welding, the dropouts were spaced funny (of course). Neal will have to spread the frame and re-align before all's said and done.
All respaced and realigned. I’ll finish assembly tomorrow most likely.
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Old 02-19-22, 08:34 AM
  #43  
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HMMM, I have a older but nice Fuji 7spd Beach Cruiser frame that has broken at the drive side DO, I thought the rear wheel hub bearings were shot when I got it cause you could feel the wobble without riding it. Upon tear down I found that where the DO fits in the chain stay Slot the front didn't get brazed very good and popped but the backside was brazed good but caused the chain stay to snap. Looking at the bike you would never have seen it all looked good. I saved the frame and parts and was hoping a good friend who is a master with a torch could braze it back together for me. Last spring I picked up a new Mig setup with a spool gun and a plasma cutter, I set the mig up flux core but have since got a bottle for it. I haven't even tried the mig out yet only the plasma cutter but I wonder if I should give it a try After I learn the machine, if it works great if not it's not a big loss.

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Old 02-19-22, 08:37 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by scarlson
Thanks for all the accolades!!

I did a lot of grinding and filing to get it to look like that. As usual, I was way too involved in the job to get any pictures of the process. I'm sorry!
I taught myself to weld back in the day mainly by reading pipefitters' training documentation. It pretty neatly translates over to dropouts: thick steel, welded in multiple passes. There's a lot of concern with getting the right sort of v-groove, and then they do a whole routine of "weld, grind, repeat". That's what I did here, but it's a little less extreme because this stuff isn't so thick!

I just hope it holds together! A well-aligned dropout will go a long ways. When I was done welding, the dropouts were spaced funny (of course). Neal will have to spread the frame and re-align before all's said and done.
reminds me of reading a repair of the Crown sheet on a big 4-8-4 steam locomotive.
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Old 02-19-22, 09:25 AM
  #45  
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Nice looking job on the repair. Many years ago in the Navy I worked with the guys who did all the welding and brazing on the ship (they always called brazing "sweating" - not sure if same technique) and I have always regretted not picking up their mad skillz during those long underway times.

Knock on wood, I have never been able to generate enough wattage to break a frame component although one time I snapped a chain. I am immensely proud of that.
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Old 02-19-22, 11:28 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by TPL
The 2 aforementioned shops would now be in the distinct category of places NOT to go

How do you say STOO-PID ?!
That's definitely the big point I've got out of this thread. They didn't bother to check the frame, given the customer complaint? Obviously, they're in the business to sell parts.
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Old 02-19-22, 11:53 AM
  #47  
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So, the morale of the story is...

Steel is real...repairable.
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Old 02-19-22, 12:30 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by sykerocker
That's definitely the big point I've got out of this thread. They didn't bother to check the frame, given the customer complaint? Obviously, they're in the business to sell parts.
But what makes them (to steal a term from above) stoo-pid is that they're also in the business to sell bikes. A smart shop would have found the break, and made it abundantly clear that it would be impossible to repair an "old" frame that's broken in that way, and that today's bikes with their modern materials would never break in that way, blah blah blah, and parleyed it into a bike sale.
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