Dimago123

Local frame builder offers steel builds using this Dedacciai tubing but I can’t find descriptions for the different offerings from this brand. I want to keep the builder honest and make sure the grade of tubing will match the purpose of the frame build, my weight, etc. as I understand some steel Can be higher grade than others

8aaron8

Here is a link to their catalog, like many steel tubing manufacturers they have an array of diameters and wall thicknesses to pick and choose in order to build the desired ride characteristics into a frame. I will say if you're feeling uncomfortable with the honesty of the builder by trying to "keep him honest" you may want to consider looking into other builders.

https://www.dedacciai.com/download/zero-zero1.pdf

Andrew R Stewart 

"higher grade" usually means a greater tensile strength and thus a harder to work with (cut/file/bend) material. The primary reason to use it is to be able to reduce the tubing wall thickness and shed a few ounces. Even the most basic grade of specific bike tubing is more than strong enough to make a wonderfully riding bike from. Dedacciai started by ex Columbus employees and tend to mimic that brand's products and materials.

But I find it interesting that you seem to not trust the builder. Almost like you are expecting to be taken advantage of. I hope I am wrong and that your relationship with the builder is a positive one. Andy

Dimago123

I grew up in Eastern Europe so I feel I’m about to be taken advantage at every purchase I make.

i just want to get a full picture

unterhausen

You can really get into minutia with bike tubing. Things like ultimate tensile strength, yield strength etc. The truth is that there isn't much difference in steel tubes except possibly cost and weight because frame geometry is generally limited to very similar designs. And the weight savings that can be had are quite small. I mostly build with Columbus, but my next couple of frames are going to have Dedacciai chain stays because I like the bend. And Reynolds fork blades. The rest is going to be columbus.

I suppose if you are doing something unwise like designing the lightest possible steel touring frame for fully loaded touring, then some of those parameters might be more important. My suggestion is to not do anything like that.

Dimago123

So Columbus has several varieties: Zona, Spirit, etc etc but Deda has zero and zero 1 and that’s about it?

Dimago123

could you share some photos/info of your builds?

Nessism

Roughly speaking

ZeroTre = Columbus SL or Brain
ZeroUno = Zona
Zero = Life

Personally, I always question, including what the builder picks. There are builders out there that tend to dismiss tubing selection, so it doesn't hurt to understand what you are paying for.

And for what it's worth, I was considering using Zero to build a lugged frame, but the butts are too short to put the lug on for a medium sized frame. ZeroUno is far better in that regard. It builds an awesome standard OS road frame. None better, in my opinion. And the tubes are quite cheap also.

duanedr 

There have been several blind 'semi-scientific' experiments that show tubing has a very small and non-intuitive effect on the ride of the bike.

Assuming we aren't talking about XcR or 953 types of tubes, the tubing is a small % of the costs that go into a frameset. The difference between the top and the bottom of the price range is irrelevant (5% of frame cost?) to the price of a frameset. The paint can be 20-50% of the cost so, 5% for tubing isn't a concern.

You are paying for their expertise in designing a frame that matches your riding style, weight, fit and the kinds of riding you're doing as well as the fabrication skills and warrantee support should you end up there. Ask questions to understand their design choices, not 2nd guess them. If you are 2nd guessing them, you haven't found the right builder for you.

guy153

Looking at that catalogue it says all Dedacciai tubing is seamless cromoly (25CrMo4 is the European standard equivalent to 4130). So it's all good, and basically equivalent to anything from Columbus or Reynolds (excluding the super high-zoot stainless ones like XCr or 953 which are a bit different).

There are some subtle differences (Reynolds have their "air hardening" steels, Columbus used to use some Niobium steels not sure if they still do) but none of this is a big deal. Seamless double-butted cromoly is quality bicycle tubing and really that's all there is to it. Below that are rolled-up "high-tensile" mild-steel tubes but I doubt any custom builder would use those anyway.

Diameters, wall thicknesses and geometry are the things to think about.

unterhausen

Where did you get your tubing? Joe Bringheli?
Now I have to go measure the butts on some tubing, I think I ordered it without considering the butt lengths.
I have seen some builders that have big difference in pricing that look like they are justified by different tubing that don't have big differences in pricing. I always considered it a discount on the frames with less expensive tubing rather than overcharging for more expensive tubing.

Nessism

I've built frames where one had a heavy/thick down tube, and another that was similar in most regards except for a fairly thin down tube, and the thick tube frame most definitely was stiffer. The friend I gave the frame to commented about how stiff it was when sprinting.

duanedr 

Agreed, when wall thickness is changed the ride will change. But that's not what we're talking about - he says 'grade'. Uno 858 tube will ride like a Zero 858 tube all else equal. Zero is stronger (higher psi) which allows it to be drawn with thinner walls and maintain the same strength but then it will lose some stiffness so, we increase the diameter to regain the stiffness but then we give up some of the weight savings. My point is now we're deep into the framebuilder's experience, expertise and fab skills and that's not something, I don't believe, the OP can 2nd guess from a post in a framebuilding forum.

In defense of the framebuilder, Uno might not be available in the really thin walls that give the desired ride feel or frame weight. Conversely, Zero might not be available in the thick walls necessary to support a heavier rider or for a bike that will see hard use as a commuter with racks. It doesn't make sense to put higher grade thin-walled tubing of a larger diameter on a commuter - it will dent easier. The frame builder is designing around use cases and grade of tubing is secondary to the tubing dimensions.

Nessism

My comment was in reference to your post above.

I think we all are on the same page and share the same understanding.

With Dedacciai tubing, ZeroTre is the lowest strength, and thickest, ZeroUno is stronger, so it can be drawn thinner, with shorter butts, and Zero is strongest still, and only comes in thin/short butt configurations. For the most part, it's not possible to build the same frame using the different tube sets. One needs to choose the purpose of the frame first, then the family of tubes to be used is part of that realization. Picking which tubing family first, is going about the job backwards.

Edit: it seems that ZeroTre is discontinued now. Too bad. It was a nice tubeset. I suppose only higher end custom frames are made by framebuilders these days. There must not be a market for a more standard tubeset anymore.

Nessism

I bought most of my Dedacciai from Joe, but there are other sources selling it also these days. I've got a really nifty tapered down tube that is 1.25 at the head tube, and 1.375 at the bottom bracket. Joe provided a suitable BB shell, that uses a 1.125 seat tube. And I've got a Zero top tube. I went through Joe's stock and picked the lightest samples he had. It should build into a really nice light frame.

unterhausen

When I restarted framebuilding after a long hiatus, I got some zerotre. It was really cheap with a quantity discount. Not sure what I'm going to do with it, maybe make furniture?
The tapered downtube sounds pretty neat. There are rumors that deda makes tubing for other companies and it doesn't always get their label. Although nowadays, steel is coming on higher priced bikes and the cheap bikes are aluminum, so maybe they aren't drawing it any more.

duanedr 

Right, my point is that it's not a matter of Zero or Uno. It's a matter of dimensions.

guy153

My guess is that all they're doing now is the final few cold-drawing and butting steps, which is done on a machine not much bigger than a large lathe, and perhaps some heat-treating. They buy in some standard grade cold-drawn seamless plain gauge cromoly and turn it into bike tubes. According to a pdf I have from Reynolds you make a 600mm double-butted 1" TT out of a 34.9mm x 1mm x 390mm blank. This is basically what Reynolds are doing too, but I don't know if they're getting someone to make their CrMnMo alloy (for 631/853) specifically or if that is actually just a less well-known standard grade that's also used in other applications.

unterhausen

Interesting, so I can start my own bike tubing company?

I'm thinking seriously about turning my excess deda tubing into the base of a small computer desk. For balance, I'm making bike parking racks out of some Reynolds 531 seat stays.

guy153

Yes you could start a tubing company. But there probably isn't much point without owning an existing brand.

You can't make these tubes into furniture! Make some frames or give them away/sell them. Acceptable non bicycle projects are light aircraft or tube chassis for other kinds of vehicle.

unterhausen

I thought about other uses, but I need a small table and these are low-end tubes that aren't too useful for the kind of bike I'm interested in building right now. I have more than enough tubing for that anyway. If they were higher end deda, I wouldn't even think about it. Now I need to find some 27.2mm furniture feet. I'm going to do the heated boiled linseed oil treatment to make them black.
I have seen some really cool chairs made out of bike tubing.

guy153

For a table you need stiffness, which usually means some bracing about 3/4 of the way down the legs. Then the design challenge is for it not to get in the way of people's feet. I tried heated boiled linseed on some projects but didn't have much luck with it-- it just went all sticky and peely. Maybe I heated it too much. For indoor use you actually don't need any finish at all-- things won't go rusty.

unterhausen

I have used blo on a frame and it came out okay. You have to wipe off the excess. And I waxed it afterwards. I didn't get to the point of blackening it though.

It was fun looking through my frame tubes that have no intended purpose. I have some true temper for no reason. It's all Verus though, I think.

Doug Fattic 

Eric, we always need more tubing for making steel frames in Ukraine. Well once we replace the equipment stolen by the Russians after they broke into our shop in Bucha. If you aren't going to use some of your tubing, we can use it for our Ukraine bikes. I'll pay shipping. Or if you drive it to my place (you can drive on an Interstate practically all the way), hang around my shop a day or two and I'll demonstrate how we fillet braze them together. Just before the Auburn event, Jeff Bock, Tim Massengill and Rich Gangl spent some time together in my shop (all super good builders and painters) and we learned from each other.

unterhausen

Okay, I'll see what I have