Origins of Wrap-Around Seat Stays
08-26-22, 05:05 AM
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Origins of Wrap-Around Seat Stays
In the 5-Speed Freewheel thread, I noticed that the French Peschi posted by member VintageRide has "wrap-around seat stays", I always thought this was an English thing for no other reason than the only bikes I own with those type of stays are of English origin, Falcon & Raleigh.
Who first came up with the idea and what are the benefits and drawbacks of such a design? The only thing that jumps out at me are the spindly nature of the stays.
Who first came up with the idea and what are the benefits and drawbacks of such a design? The only thing that jumps out at me are the spindly nature of the stays.
Last edited by branko_76; 08-26-22 at 05:14 AM.
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08-26-22, 05:07 AM
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08-26-22, 05:08 AM
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08-26-22, 12:47 PM
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No idea when they first started appearing, but you certainly see a lot of vintage English bikes with wrap arounds.
As far as advantages/disadvantages, I've haven't brazed any up that way (yet), but they'd be a bit more difficult as both seat stays have to meet up at the same exact place so they're even. Here's a modern, available wrap around casting (from framebuildersupply.com) that I'd probably use if I wanted to to do that.
A clear advantage would be more surface area for the braze filler material. More surface area = stronger joint.
If I were to braze seat stays on "uncoupled", I could be off by a bit side to side and it wouldn't matter structurally. Visually it would bother the heck out of me though.
As far as advantages/disadvantages, I've haven't brazed any up that way (yet), but they'd be a bit more difficult as both seat stays have to meet up at the same exact place so they're even. Here's a modern, available wrap around casting (from framebuildersupply.com) that I'd probably use if I wanted to to do that.
A clear advantage would be more surface area for the braze filler material. More surface area = stronger joint.
If I were to braze seat stays on "uncoupled", I could be off by a bit side to side and it wouldn't matter structurally. Visually it would bother the heck out of me though.
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08-26-22, 06:43 PM
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.
I always assumed both stays of the old "wrap-arounds" were one length of tubing heated and then "wrapped" around the seat cluster, something like a glass artisan would do.
I always assumed both stays of the old "wrap-arounds" were one length of tubing heated and then "wrapped" around the seat cluster, something like a glass artisan would do.
No idea when they first started appearing, but you certainly see a lot of vintage English bikes with wrap arounds.
As far as advantages/disadvantages, I've haven't brazed any up that way (yet), but they'd be a bit more difficult as both seat stays have to meet up at the same exact place so they're even. Here's a modern, available wrap around casting (from framebuildersupply.com) that I'd probably use if I wanted to to do that.
A clear advantage would be more surface area for the braze filler material. More surface area = stronger joint.
As far as advantages/disadvantages, I've haven't brazed any up that way (yet), but they'd be a bit more difficult as both seat stays have to meet up at the same exact place so they're even. Here's a modern, available wrap around casting (from framebuildersupply.com) that I'd probably use if I wanted to to do that.
A clear advantage would be more surface area for the braze filler material. More surface area = stronger joint.
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08-26-22, 06:58 PM
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I just checked in the Atelier, and although I have a lot of older English frames, none have full wrap around stays. @Doug Fattic apprenticed in England "back in the day", perhaps he can comment?
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08-26-22, 07:09 PM
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That makes sense, the portion that is welded to the seat cluster is a much smaller diameter so both legs of the seat stays would not be manufactured from one length
08-26-22, 07:23 PM
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My Carlton and my Centurion both have 'em, and I like it.
Though, the force vector of the seatstays acting on the cluster is in the 'upward' direction. Having all that attachment on the opposite side of the cluster is a bit strange, from a purely structural view. I would think that, structurally, one would want to mount the seatstays to the backside of the seat-tube...
Though, the force vector of the seatstays acting on the cluster is in the 'upward' direction. Having all that attachment on the opposite side of the cluster is a bit strange, from a purely structural view. I would think that, structurally, one would want to mount the seatstays to the backside of the seat-tube...
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08-26-22, 07:30 PM
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My Carlton and my Centurion both have 'em, and I like it.
Though, the force vector of the seatstays acting on the cluster is in the 'upward' direction. Having all that attachment on the opposite side of the cluster is a bit strange, from a purely structural view. I would think that, structurally, one would want to mount the seatstays to the backside of the seat-tube...
Though, the force vector of the seatstays acting on the cluster is in the 'upward' direction. Having all that attachment on the opposite side of the cluster is a bit strange, from a purely structural view. I would think that, structurally, one would want to mount the seatstays to the backside of the seat-tube...
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08-26-22, 07:38 PM
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hmmm........ so are the seat stays in tension or compression?
08-26-22, 08:44 PM
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My comments are directed at the interface between the wrap around stays and the seat lug/top tube intersection.
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08-26-22, 09:02 PM
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The Peschi originated from Nice where there is, or was, a strong Italian presence such as the Urago brothers. Even their bikes are not all that common but the higher end models did feature wrap around seat stays as well as fish mouth ends at the dropouts, which the Peschi also has. I will most likely never know the history of the bike but there is a very good likelihood that the Urago shop constructed it for someone.
Some very talented frame builders in Europe remained anonymous even though they made very nice frames, often for a racing team or specific rider. Still possible to find a lightweight frame that is the equal of the more well known marques for a lot less.
Some very talented frame builders in Europe remained anonymous even though they made very nice frames, often for a racing team or specific rider. Still possible to find a lightweight frame that is the equal of the more well known marques for a lot less.
Last edited by VintageRide; 08-27-22 at 02:08 PM.
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08-26-22, 09:17 PM
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I thought the wraparound seat stays were one of the coolest features of my 1971 Nishiki Competition. In my current stable, only the 1962 Carlton has them, but they really flatten out, compared to the more tubular, Raleigh-like form on the Nishiki.
All stripped down and ready to rebuild.
All stripped down and ready to rebuild.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
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08-26-22, 11:44 PM
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Swiss Allegros from the 60s and 70s had this design feature
Mine is a 1974(ish) bike (Schweitzermeister model 76) but I have seen models from the 60s with these stays.
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08-27-22, 02:37 AM
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The wrap around attachment style starts with with 2 solid plugs with a flattened side brazed into the top of each seat stay. These plugs are called "top eyes". The difference in style between just having them brazed on the side of the lug or wrapping around the lug involves positioning the plug a little higher and filling in the gap between both tips of the top eyes with brass and filing the resulting brass blob to look like one continuous piece between the stays.
I don't know what builder started the style or how long ago it became popular but it was a somewhat seat stay treatment for several British builders after the war.
I don't know what builder started the style or how long ago it became popular but it was a somewhat seat stay treatment for several British builders after the war.
08-27-22, 09:26 AM
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The wrap around attachment style starts with with 2 solid plugs with a flattened side brazed into the top of each seat stay. These plugs are called "top eyes". The difference in style between just having them brazed on the side of the lug or wrapping around the lug involves positioning the plug a little higher and filling in the gap between both tips of the top eyes with brass and filing the resulting brass blob to look like one continuous piece between the stays.
I don't know what builder started the style or how long ago it became popular but it was a somewhat seat stay treatment for several British builders after the war.
I don't know what builder started the style or how long ago it became popular but it was a somewhat seat stay treatment for several British builders after the war.
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08-27-22, 10:07 AM
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I have a Witcomb I need to build up one of these days. I like the wrap around seat stays on it.
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08-27-22, 11:40 AM
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Those flat "wrap-arounds" are much more elegant than the round type used in the Raleigh Grand Prix and lower end Falcon
.
.
Last edited by branko_76; 08-27-22 at 09:48 PM.
08-27-22, 07:00 PM
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More english flavour for you 
1970s Mercian
1970s Mercian
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08-28-22, 02:37 AM
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