Toe Clearance and bigger tires
03-28-22, 12:57 PM
#76
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What I think is true for everyone, is that bikes should be available in a variety of geometries so that we don't keep having these threads where people try to invalidate each other's experience or preferences. Want a bike with a short wheelbase and can handle TCO? Great, you can have that! Want a bike that obviates TCO by having some combination of slacker HTA/more fork rake and possibly smaller wheels, and are okay with different handling? You can have that too!
Doesn't seem like the topic needs to be so contentious, IMO.
Doesn't seem like the topic needs to be so contentious, IMO.
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03-30-22, 09:25 AM
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ah ha
Funny you should say that, because the only time I ever fell because of toe overlap was on a track bike. With the fixed gear, you can't ratchet. Granted, I was being stupid and paying attention to my teammate who was qualifying while I was cooling down on the apron, veered too close to the grass and steered back, catching my toe which could only continue moving forward or come to a complete stop.
03-30-22, 10:14 AM
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Not trolling, I genuinely I did not know tire overlap was an issue outside of fixed gear riding. 
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03-30-22, 10:21 AM
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There's no Geo measurement which would 'indicate' toe clearance - too many factors.
Besides Front-center, there is crank length, tire/wheel diameter, shoe size (and not surprisingly, shoe profile in the nose/toe area), cleat placement.
Toe-overlap has usually been a condition of 'road' type bikes, rare for what had been called 'touring' bikes.
There's a lot of history to this, and I won;t into that now.
But these days the problem is exasperated by bigger riders on smaller frames, general use of large tire sizes, and bike designers not adapting design for the overwhelming trend for use of large tires by a broad spectrum of riders.
Surprisingly, getting Front-center spec in manfacturer's specs is not a given. Specialized gives front-center, Trek does not... One can calculate front-center from the common geo specs given.
You need wheelbase, chainstay length, BB drop.
So, it becomes a personal investigation. For me, I generally ride 'Lg' commonly 56-57cm size in road frames, Have a 11/45 shoe size and the cleat is mounted well forward on the shoe sole , but Ball O Foot is positioned over the center of pedal spindle (I have a size 13 foot arch length with corresponding size 8 toe length... LOL! ) I still ride 700x23 or 25 on my road bikes. And use Sidi and Shimano shoes which don;t have a very pointy toe shoe profile. So, I can avoid toe-overlap if the front-center is at least 590mm or a bit greater. If I were to go to a 28mm tire, it would be very, very close...
My own observations for a few years is that a front-center of over 600mm would accommodate tire sizes up to at least 42, possibly larger - for large feet (size 12 or under...)
I've owned a few bikes, over the decades, which had toe-ovelap, and none have ever been 'keepers' or considered a FAV... besides toe-overlap, there have always been other things which have made the frame less desirable...
Toe-overlap isn't even a 'discussion' when it comes to riding with flat pedals, because foot/shoe placement is usually all over the map...
For some, toe-overlap is not a consideration. I find it totally annoying and know it could easily be eliminated in frame design, so it's a none-starter for me.
Ride On
Yuri
Besides Front-center, there is crank length, tire/wheel diameter, shoe size (and not surprisingly, shoe profile in the nose/toe area), cleat placement.
Toe-overlap has usually been a condition of 'road' type bikes, rare for what had been called 'touring' bikes.
There's a lot of history to this, and I won;t into that now.
But these days the problem is exasperated by bigger riders on smaller frames, general use of large tire sizes, and bike designers not adapting design for the overwhelming trend for use of large tires by a broad spectrum of riders.
Surprisingly, getting Front-center spec in manfacturer's specs is not a given. Specialized gives front-center, Trek does not... One can calculate front-center from the common geo specs given.
You need wheelbase, chainstay length, BB drop.
So, it becomes a personal investigation. For me, I generally ride 'Lg' commonly 56-57cm size in road frames, Have a 11/45 shoe size and the cleat is mounted well forward on the shoe sole , but Ball O Foot is positioned over the center of pedal spindle (I have a size 13 foot arch length with corresponding size 8 toe length... LOL! ) I still ride 700x23 or 25 on my road bikes. And use Sidi and Shimano shoes which don;t have a very pointy toe shoe profile. So, I can avoid toe-overlap if the front-center is at least 590mm or a bit greater. If I were to go to a 28mm tire, it would be very, very close...
My own observations for a few years is that a front-center of over 600mm would accommodate tire sizes up to at least 42, possibly larger - for large feet (size 12 or under...)
I've owned a few bikes, over the decades, which had toe-ovelap, and none have ever been 'keepers' or considered a FAV... besides toe-overlap, there have always been other things which have made the frame less desirable...
Toe-overlap isn't even a 'discussion' when it comes to riding with flat pedals, because foot/shoe placement is usually all over the map...
For some, toe-overlap is not a consideration. I find it totally annoying and know it could easily be eliminated in frame design, so it's a none-starter for me.
Ride On
Yuri
Apologies if you covered it, but it wasn't obvious to me.
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03-30-22, 11:43 AM
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I would say the problem was more a matter of me insisting on looking behind me and not watching where I was riding, and I don't know of any touring bikes with fixed gears, but sure why not?
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03-30-22, 03:06 PM
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My own Opa's Opafiets... LOL! and it IS a 'Mercedes' of bikes... LOL!
But, yes, fenders need to be considered !
Ride On
Yuri
03-30-22, 04:32 PM
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Yes I'm posting a picture of this bike again.....
I ride this bike everyday, it's my car, I grocery shop on it, I make store runs on it, it's my default, and it has toe overlap, I just don't know if I'd like it better if it didn't have toe over lap? I can't remember a a bike I've owned on the past that didn't have overlap maybe it's muscle memory maybe it's not a big deal and maybe it doesn't matter.
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03-31-22, 08:07 AM
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Yes I'm posting a picture of this bike again.....
I ride this bike everyday, it's my car, I grocery shop on it, I make store runs on it, it's my default, and it has toe overlap, I just don't know if I'd like it better if it didn't have toe over lap? I can't remember a a bike I've owned on the past that didn't have overlap maybe it's muscle memory maybe it's not a big deal and maybe it doesn't matter.
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04-03-22, 10:34 AM
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I had toe overlap on my 56 cm bike but that's it. I noticed it on a specific section and it did bother me. It was a steep slow and twisty climb. A few "switchbacks" were really slow/tight and I buzzed the wheel while climbing- 2-3 times. It definitely caught me off guard since I was not expecting it. I don't have that issue on any of my 58 cm bikes. I'll prob get a 56 cn next time and may reduce crank length to 170 from 175. I'll test the bike first and make sure the overlap isn't too much. A rare toe-buzz is fine but a big overlap isn't...I'd just get a 58. I'm 5'11, 33.5" inseam and size 12 feet.
04-03-22, 10:47 AM
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Yes I'm posting a picture of this bike again.....
I ride this bike everyday, it's my car, I grocery shop on it, I make store runs on it, it's my default, and it has toe overlap, I just don't know if I'd like it better if it didn't have toe over lap? I can't remember a a bike I've owned on the past that didn't have overlap maybe it's muscle memory maybe it's not a big deal and maybe it doesn't matter.
Toe overlap is only an issue of one is riding with a fixed foot position. "Clipless", name with derived from "toe clips" and cleats... or BITD, with toe clips and cleats...
unless, of course, you're stubborn enough to not move your foot when it strikes the tire...
Ride On
Yuri
04-03-22, 02:14 PM
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Of course it doesn't matter, you're riding with flat pedals... duh
Toe overlap is only an issue of one is riding with a fixed foot position. "Clipless", name with derived from "toe clips" and cleats... or BITD, with toe clips and cleats...
unless, of course, you're stubborn enough to not move your foot when it strikes the tire...
Ride On
Yuri
Toe overlap is only an issue of one is riding with a fixed foot position. "Clipless", name with derived from "toe clips" and cleats... or BITD, with toe clips and cleats...
unless, of course, you're stubborn enough to not move your foot when it strikes the tire...
Ride On
Yuri
04-07-22, 05:03 AM
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I had toe overlap on my 56 cm bike but that's it. I noticed it on a specific section and it did bother me. It was a steep slow and twisty climb. A few "switchbacks" were really slow/tight and I buzzed the wheel while climbing- 2-3 times. It definitely caught me off guard since I was not expecting it. I don't have that issue on any of my 58 cm bikes. I'll prob get a 56 cn next time and may reduce crank length to 170 from 175. I'll test the bike first and make sure the overlap isn't too much. A rare toe-buzz is fine but a big overlap isn't...I'd just get a 58. I'm 5'11, 33.5" inseam and size 12 feet.
I don't think it's directly based on your frame size, but rather it's your front-center. That is the distance from the front wheel axis (skewer end of your front QR with the wheel straight, is close enough) to the bottom bracket axis. True this ofter is longer for a bigger-size frame, but but this relationship is nowhere near a federal law! The front-center takes into account top tube length, head tube angle, fork rake or offset, seat tube angle, and reach, as in "stack and reach." It does not cover the option to have fenders or not, tire diameter, crank arm length, and how far forward your cleats are set. If you are reaching too far forward after some of these tweaks, you can recalibrate the cockpit by reducing the saddle setback, reducing the stem extension or reducing the handlebar reach. I doubt any of us can steer you through such a set of interactions.
I'd start by measuring the front-center of my frames to see how much increase in front-center an offending bicycle needs in order to be as good as a not-offending frame. For one thing if you need to go bike shopping you can bring a tape measure and measure a bike you like and see if it is close to your toe-clearance criterion, roughly based on the front-center. If you need to reduce by only 2 cm, that might be done with a fork with lower offset combined with a 5 mm shorter crank arm and setting forward the cleats 5 mm. I'm not saying this is the only approach, since there are so many factors involved, but I think the front-center comparison is a big part of the story.
You could also put the crank pedal-forward and position it and the fork for minimum clearance for a more direct reading of how close your foot gets in the case where there is overlap, and to see if you think you can correct it. For a problem of just a few mm, probably you can. But if it's a few cm, You might have to change several other dimensions and those might not leave you with a bike that pedals or climbs the way you like. I guess one of my first goals would be to make sure I have frames for which overlap can be prevented, reasonably. If not, new bike time, save your toes, and whatever else might be crunched if you fall over!
Last edited by Road Fan; 04-07-22 at 05:11 AM.
04-07-22, 05:20 AM
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Yes I'm posting a picture of this bike again.....
I ride this bike everyday, it's my car, I grocery shop on it, I make store runs on it, it's my default, and it has toe overlap, I just don't know if I'd like it better if it didn't have toe over lap? I can't remember a a bike I've owned on the past that didn't have overlap maybe it's muscle memory maybe it's not a big deal and maybe it doesn't matter.
Last edited by Road Fan; 04-07-22 at 05:26 AM.
