Groupset tiers and diminishing returns
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#103
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N=1, but I've been running a Dura-ace 11-30 cassette for 6500km now, and I regularly run DA chains which I keep reasonably clean and have so far lubricated with Squirt; I just tossed a chain which has also done 6500km which is just about closing to 0.5 wear; if I didn't intend to use a longer chain to run an OSPW and didn't have a big race coming up, I'd use it for a thousand kilometers more, probably. Anyway, it looks quite pristine and I expect to get more than 20000 km out of it.
Ultegra cassettes on a otherwise DA drivetrain is also a popular alternative.
However, I do run a compact and hence spend much of the day when riding on relatively flat terrain in the smaller steel cogs instead of cross chaining, which would predictably wear the titanium bits of a DA cassette sooner than an Ultegra one.
Ultegra cassettes on a otherwise DA drivetrain is also a popular alternative.
However, I do run a compact and hence spend much of the day when riding on relatively flat terrain in the smaller steel cogs instead of cross chaining, which would predictably wear the titanium bits of a DA cassette sooner than an Ultegra one.
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If you made a full DA set out of steel it would be more durable right? That's all I'm saying. The more you get into weight saving for a given design, the more fragile it then becomes. I'm not suggesting DA is fragile, but I'm certainly not going to presume it is more durable than Ultegra or 105, which both use more steel components. When you get further down the food-chain and plastic bits start getting used in place of steel and alloys, then the balance turns back the other way. Like the lowest tier Sram Eagle plastic-fantastic for example.
If you are comparing all steel cogs to all Ti cogs, yes. But that is not what they do with DA.
The smaller cogs wear faster. If a cassette wears out due to to the smaller steel cogs, then the presence of larger ti cogs made no difference to its real world durability. That is why they only use them on the larger cogs.
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#107
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Interesting insinuation: If the companies claim it, it must be false
Sorry, but in this case the claim totally makes sense.The point is that it is not just which cogs you use the most, it is that the even given equal use, the smaller ones wear out faster. And it explains why my Ti cassettes did not seem to wear out any faster. I for one have always noticed that it is always to cogs in the middle or upper end that ultimately wear out first, even though I use them less often.
Sorry, but in this case the claim totally makes sense.The point is that it is not just which cogs you use the most, it is that the even given equal use, the smaller ones wear out faster. And it explains why my Ti cassettes did not seem to wear out any faster. I for one have always noticed that it is always to cogs in the middle or upper end that ultimately wear out first, even though I use them less often.
Let's try chains then. Worth pointing out though, there could be better performance (reduced friction) from a DA 11s chain vs. eg an Ultegra 11s chain, but I couldn't find that test. Mind you, for chains there's only about a $10 price difference and roughly only about a 10g weight savings.
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#108
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But it seems like it is durable enough, so I wasn't planning to labour that point any further. But you keep bringing it up.
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And now I'll be called a "troll" again for pointing out the obvious.
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I'm not insinuating anything, just that, per the section I bolded, the claim is perfectly true, but dependent on the notion of 'given equal use'.
Let's try chains then. Worth pointing out though, there could be better performance (reduced friction) from a DA 11s chain vs. eg an Ultegra 11s chain, but I couldn't find that test. Mind you, for chains there's only about a $10 price difference and roughly only about a 10g weight savings.
Let's try chains then. Worth pointing out though, there could be better performance (reduced friction) from a DA 11s chain vs. eg an Ultegra 11s chain, but I couldn't find that test. Mind you, for chains there's only about a $10 price difference and roughly only about a 10g weight savings.
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I'm not insinuating anything, just that, per the section I bolded, the claim is perfectly true, but dependent on the notion of 'given equal use'.
Let's try chains then. Worth pointing out though, there could be better performance (reduced friction) from a DA 11s chain vs. eg an Ultegra 11s chain, but I couldn't find that test. Mind you, for chains there's only about a $10 price difference and roughly only about a 10g weight savings.
Let's try chains then. Worth pointing out though, there could be better performance (reduced friction) from a DA 11s chain vs. eg an Ultegra 11s chain, but I couldn't find that test. Mind you, for chains there's only about a $10 price difference and roughly only about a 10g weight savings.
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With only 1500-2500 km per chain, the lubricant they are using is absolutely dismal.
Anyway, whenever friction is tested, Dura-ace 11 speed chains come out on or near the top, so that's what I use. Regarding the test the graph is derived from, I quote:
"This is explained by the Dura-Ace chain sample coming out of the box with a measured .12mm “wear” on the KMC digital chain checker, whereas the batch of Ultegra chains started at .05/.06mm measurable “wear”. Keep in mind that Kerin’s test considers .5mm to be worn out, and so .12mm is almost a quarter of the allowable wear allowance. Kerin believes this is a batch variance, and that it’s quite possible (even likely) the Dura-Ace chain can offer improved durability."
Anyway, whenever friction is tested, Dura-ace 11 speed chains come out on or near the top, so that's what I use. Regarding the test the graph is derived from, I quote:
"This is explained by the Dura-Ace chain sample coming out of the box with a measured .12mm “wear” on the KMC digital chain checker, whereas the batch of Ultegra chains started at .05/.06mm measurable “wear”. Keep in mind that Kerin’s test considers .5mm to be worn out, and so .12mm is almost a quarter of the allowable wear allowance. Kerin believes this is a batch variance, and that it’s quite possible (even likely) the Dura-Ace chain can offer improved durability."
#115
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With only 1500-2500 km per chain, the lubricant they are using is absolutely dismal.
Anyway, whenever friction is tested, Dura-ace 11 speed chains come out on or near the top, so that's what I use. Regarding the test the graph is derived from, I quote:
"This is explained by the Dura-Ace chain sample coming out of the box with a measured .12mm “wear” on the KMC digital chain checker, whereas the batch of Ultegra chains started at .05/.06mm measurable “wear”. Keep in mind that Kerin’s test considers .5mm to be worn out, and so .12mm is almost a quarter of the allowable wear allowance. Kerin believes this is a batch variance, and that it’s quite possible (even likely) the Dura-Ace chain can offer improved durability."
Anyway, whenever friction is tested, Dura-ace 11 speed chains come out on or near the top, so that's what I use. Regarding the test the graph is derived from, I quote:
"This is explained by the Dura-Ace chain sample coming out of the box with a measured .12mm “wear” on the KMC digital chain checker, whereas the batch of Ultegra chains started at .05/.06mm measurable “wear”. Keep in mind that Kerin’s test considers .5mm to be worn out, and so .12mm is almost a quarter of the allowable wear allowance. Kerin believes this is a batch variance, and that it’s quite possible (even likely) the Dura-Ace chain can offer improved durability."
The batch variance point is interesting, but most people are going to base their maintenance on measured chain wear regardless of starting condition, so it is what it is.
Last edited by PeteHski; 09-07-21 at 10:50 AM.
#116
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It's a valid point. If it's really a "money no object" build, then you buy the best regardless of cost, and you get Dura Ace. If you're are asking whether Dura Ace is worth the extra money, then it's not a "money no object" build."
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That is presuming Dura Ace actually is the best for my intended usage. If I was building a pure race bike then it would be an easier decision. As it happens I'm likely to be going with Campagnolo now anyway, but for other practical reasons.
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Switching to Campy doesn't really change anything. You're still going to have the same contradiction if you say it's a "money no object" build but question whether Super Record is worth the extra money.
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It's only a contradiction if you assume that the top tier road racing groupset is the "best" for your specific application. But the reason I'm probably going with Campag is more because I like their new Ekar 1x 13 groupset. Which takes me down a completely different path and makes this thread a bit obsolete.
#121
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No, you're being called a troll for belaboring the already answered and clarified.
#122
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I agree. Again it's this lack of practical performance advantages that stops me from buying them. Not the cost. I mean what is the cost difference between Chorus and Super Record? £1k maybe? In the overall scheme of things, that is not a lot of money to me at this stage of life. But I'm not going to throw an extra £1k at anything without seeing some meaningful advantage.
#123
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Pete, I don't think there is much more of use to come from this thread. As OP, normally the mods will close it if you ask.
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'money is no object'
'money is no concern'
Its been established that the second is what was initially intended. Anything can be afforded is what was meant by the comment.
'money is no concern'
Its been established that the second is what was initially intended. Anything can be afforded is what was meant by the comment.
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