Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Groupset tiers and diminishing returns

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Groupset tiers and diminishing returns

Old 09-07-21, 07:30 AM
  #101  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4272 Post(s)
Liked 4,707 Times in 2,907 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote
At least the thread troll is happy
PeteHski is online now  
Old 09-07-21, 07:33 AM
  #102  
Litespud
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Vortex Chorus 10, 1995 DeBernardi Cromor S/S

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 645 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times in 446 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote
If it's a "money no object build," you would not be asking this question.
🙄 you’re really hanging onto this point like a dog with a bone. The OP doesn’t mind spending money, but he’s not interested in wasting money. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
Litespud is offline  
Old 09-07-21, 07:37 AM
  #103  
Branko D
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked 408 Times in 252 Posts
N=1, but I've been running a Dura-ace 11-30 cassette for 6500km now, and I regularly run DA chains which I keep reasonably clean and have so far lubricated with Squirt; I just tossed a chain which has also done 6500km which is just about closing to 0.5 wear; if I didn't intend to use a longer chain to run an OSPW and didn't have a big race coming up, I'd use it for a thousand kilometers more, probably. Anyway, it looks quite pristine and I expect to get more than 20000 km out of it.
​​​
​​Ultegra cassettes on a otherwise DA drivetrain is also a popular alternative.

However, I do run a compact and hence spend much of the day when riding on relatively flat terrain in the smaller steel cogs instead of cross chaining, which would predictably wear the titanium bits of a DA cassette sooner than an Ultegra one.
Branko D is offline  
Old 09-07-21, 07:43 AM
  #104  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,187

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2749 Post(s)
Liked 2,516 Times in 1,422 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta
You are assuming DA is weaker because it is lighter..
Originally Posted by PeteHski
No I'm not assuming that.
Than What ARE you basing you durability concerns about DA on? So far that is all you have offered.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 09-07-21, 07:47 AM
  #105  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,187

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2749 Post(s)
Liked 2,516 Times in 1,422 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
If you made a full DA set out of steel it would be more durable right? That's all I'm saying. The more you get into weight saving for a given design, the more fragile it then becomes. I'm not suggesting DA is fragile, but I'm certainly not going to presume it is more durable than Ultegra or 105, which both use more steel components. When you get further down the food-chain and plastic bits start getting used in place of steel and alloys, then the balance turns back the other way. Like the lowest tier Sram Eagle plastic-fantastic for example.
Not necessarily.

If you are comparing all steel cogs to all Ti cogs, yes. But that is not what they do with DA.

The smaller cogs wear faster. If a cassette wears out due to to the smaller steel cogs, then the presence of larger ti cogs made no difference to its real world durability. That is why they only use them on the larger cogs.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 09-07-21, 07:53 AM
  #106  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4272 Post(s)
Liked 4,707 Times in 2,907 Posts
Originally Posted by Litespud
🙄 you’re really hanging onto this point like a dog with a bone. The OP doesn’t mind spending money, but he’s not interested in wasting money. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
Because he's an obvious troll. Not worth feeding.
PeteHski is online now  
Old 09-07-21, 07:54 AM
  #107  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,611

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 997 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta
Interesting insinuation: If the companies claim it, it must be false

Sorry, but in this case the claim totally makes sense.The point is that it is not just which cogs you use the most, it is that the even given equal use, the smaller ones wear out faster. And it explains why my Ti cassettes did not seem to wear out any faster. I for one have always noticed that it is always to cogs in the middle or upper end that ultimately wear out first, even though I use them less often.
I'm not insinuating anything, just that, per the section I bolded, the claim is perfectly true, but dependent on the notion of 'given equal use'.

Let's try chains then. Worth pointing out though, there could be better performance (reduced friction) from a DA 11s chain vs. eg an Ultegra 11s chain, but I couldn't find that test. Mind you, for chains there's only about a $10 price difference and roughly only about a 10g weight savings.

Sy Reene is offline  
Likes For Sy Reene:
Old 09-07-21, 07:55 AM
  #108  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4272 Post(s)
Liked 4,707 Times in 2,907 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta
Than What ARE you basing you durability concerns about DA on? So far that is all you have offered.
I was basing it on the idea that DA might have been focused more on weight saving than durability for racing use. I'm building a Fondo bike, so durability is important.

But it seems like it is durable enough, so I wasn't planning to labour that point any further. But you keep bringing it up.
PeteHski is online now  
Old 09-07-21, 08:10 AM
  #109  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,763
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6881 Post(s)
Liked 10,869 Times in 4,634 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta
Than What ARE you basing you durability concerns about DA on? So far that is all you have offered.
OP has boxed himself into a corner: claims to be doing a "money no object build," but needs an excuse to not spring for the top-of-the-line groupset.

And now I'll be called a "troll" again for pointing out the obvious.
Koyote is online now  
Old 09-07-21, 08:20 AM
  #110  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,611

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 997 Posts
Originally Posted by Badger6
Durability in what way? Impacts? Perhaps. .
Is impact/crash damage susceptibility or robustness not potentially part of the equation and this discussion?
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 09-07-21, 08:51 AM
  #111  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4272 Post(s)
Liked 4,707 Times in 2,907 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I'm not insinuating anything, just that, per the section I bolded, the claim is perfectly true, but dependent on the notion of 'given equal use'.

Let's try chains then. Worth pointing out though, there could be better performance (reduced friction) from a DA 11s chain vs. eg an Ultegra 11s chain, but I couldn't find that test. Mind you, for chains there's only about a $10 price difference and roughly only about a 10g weight savings.

That graph is a good illustration of what I was talking about. It appears that Ultegra and 105 chains are both objectively more durable than DA. Not that surprising to me. DA is no doubt lighter, but it is less durable. Actually I looked at that very graph when I was buying a new chain for my 105. I chose Ultegra on that basis. Interesting that 105 sits between Ultegra and DA on durability.
PeteHski is online now  
Old 09-07-21, 08:52 AM
  #112  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4272 Post(s)
Liked 4,707 Times in 2,907 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote

And now I'll be called a "troll" again
That's because you are one.
PeteHski is online now  
Old 09-07-21, 09:48 AM
  #113  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,187

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2749 Post(s)
Liked 2,516 Times in 1,422 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I'm not insinuating anything, just that, per the section I bolded, the claim is perfectly true, but dependent on the notion of 'given equal use'.

Let's try chains then. Worth pointing out though, there could be better performance (reduced friction) from a DA 11s chain vs. eg an Ultegra 11s chain, but I couldn't find that test. Mind you, for chains there's only about a $10 price difference and roughly only about a 10g weight savings.

OK, THIS looks to be an instance where their is reason to believe that DA is in fact less durable. No argument there.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 09-07-21, 10:37 AM
  #114  
Branko D
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked 408 Times in 252 Posts
With only 1500-2500 km per chain, the lubricant they are using is absolutely dismal.

Anyway, whenever friction is tested, Dura-ace 11 speed chains come out on or near the top, so that's what I use. Regarding the test the graph is derived from, I quote:

"This is explained by the Dura-Ace chain sample coming out of the box with a measured .12mm “wear” on the KMC digital chain checker, whereas the batch of Ultegra chains started at .05/.06mm measurable “wear”. Keep in mind that Kerin’s test considers .5mm to be worn out, and so .12mm is almost a quarter of the allowable wear allowance. Kerin believes this is a batch variance, and that it’s quite possible (even likely) the Dura-Ace chain can offer improved durability."
​​​​​
Branko D is offline  
Old 09-07-21, 10:47 AM
  #115  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4272 Post(s)
Liked 4,707 Times in 2,907 Posts
Originally Posted by Branko D
With only 1500-2500 km per chain, the lubricant they are using is absolutely dismal.

Anyway, whenever friction is tested, Dura-ace 11 speed chains come out on or near the top, so that's what I use. Regarding the test the graph is derived from, I quote:

"This is explained by the Dura-Ace chain sample coming out of the box with a measured .12mm “wear” on the KMC digital chain checker, whereas the batch of Ultegra chains started at .05/.06mm measurable “wear”. Keep in mind that Kerin’s test considers .5mm to be worn out, and so .12mm is almost a quarter of the allowable wear allowance. Kerin believes this is a batch variance, and that it’s quite possible (even likely) the Dura-Ace chain can offer improved durability."
​​​​​
From memory I think their test is designed to accelerate wear in the later test cycles. So it may not equate directly to real world mileage. They just used White Lightning as a control lube in this test, which I have no personal experience of.

The batch variance point is interesting, but most people are going to base their maintenance on measured chain wear regardless of starting condition, so it is what it is.

Last edited by PeteHski; 09-07-21 at 10:50 AM.
PeteHski is online now  
Old 09-07-21, 10:51 AM
  #116  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,879

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3905 Post(s)
Liked 7,181 Times in 2,905 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote
OP has boxed himself into a corner: claims to be doing a "money no object build," but needs an excuse to not spring for the top-of-the-line groupset.

And now I'll be called a "troll" again for pointing out the obvious.
It's a valid point. If it's really a "money no object" build, then you buy the best regardless of cost, and you get Dura Ace. If you're are asking whether Dura Ace is worth the extra money, then it's not a "money no object" build."
tomato coupe is offline  
Likes For tomato coupe:
Old 09-07-21, 10:55 AM
  #117  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4272 Post(s)
Liked 4,707 Times in 2,907 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
It's a valid point. If it's really a "money no object" build, then you buy the best regardless of cost, and you get Dura Ace. If you're are asking whether Dura Ace is worth the extra money, then it's not a "money no object" build."
That is presuming Dura Ace actually is the best for my intended usage. If I was building a pure race bike then it would be an easier decision. As it happens I'm likely to be going with Campagnolo now anyway, but for other practical reasons.
PeteHski is online now  
Old 09-07-21, 11:06 AM
  #118  
tomato coupe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,879

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3905 Post(s)
Liked 7,181 Times in 2,905 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski
That is presuming Dura Ace actually is the best for my intended usage. If I was building a pure race bike then it would be an easier decision. As it happens I'm likely to be going with Campagnolo now anyway, but for other practical reasons.
Switching to Campy doesn't really change anything. You're still going to have the same contradiction if you say it's a "money no object" build but question whether Super Record is worth the extra money.
tomato coupe is offline  
Likes For tomato coupe:
Old 09-07-21, 11:10 AM
  #119  
DMC707
Senior Member
 
DMC707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Norman, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,389

Bikes: Too many to list

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1764 Post(s)
Liked 1,119 Times in 743 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Switching to Campy doesn't really change anything. You're still going to have the same contradiction if you say it's a "money no object" build but question whether Super Record is worth the extra money.

Super Record will be a little lighter, but will offer no practical performance advantages over Chorus
DMC707 is offline  
Old 09-07-21, 11:24 AM
  #120  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4272 Post(s)
Liked 4,707 Times in 2,907 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Switching to Campy doesn't really change anything. You're still going to have the same contradiction if you say it's a "money no object" build but question whether Super Record is worth the extra money.
It's only a contradiction if you assume that the top tier road racing groupset is the "best" for your specific application. But the reason I'm probably going with Campag is more because I like their new Ekar 1x 13 groupset. Which takes me down a completely different path and makes this thread a bit obsolete.
PeteHski is online now  
Old 09-07-21, 11:30 AM
  #121  
livedarklions
Tragically Ignorant
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times in 5,053 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote
OP has boxed himself into a corner: claims to be doing a "money no object build," but needs an excuse to not spring for the top-of-the-line groupset.

And now I'll be called a "troll" again for pointing out the obvious.

No, you're being called a troll for belaboring the already answered and clarified.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-07-21, 11:33 AM
  #122  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4272 Post(s)
Liked 4,707 Times in 2,907 Posts
Originally Posted by DMC707
Super Record will be a little lighter, but will offer no practical performance advantages over Chorus
I agree. Again it's this lack of practical performance advantages that stops me from buying them. Not the cost. I mean what is the cost difference between Chorus and Super Record? £1k maybe? In the overall scheme of things, that is not a lot of money to me at this stage of life. But I'm not going to throw an extra £1k at anything without seeing some meaningful advantage.
PeteHski is online now  
Old 09-07-21, 12:08 PM
  #123  
shelbyfv
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,455
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3634 Post(s)
Liked 5,311 Times in 2,699 Posts
Pete, I don't think there is much more of use to come from this thread. As OP, normally the mods will close it if you ask.
shelbyfv is online now  
Likes For shelbyfv:
Old 09-07-21, 12:18 PM
  #124  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,532

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10897 Post(s)
Liked 7,384 Times in 4,144 Posts
'money is no object'
'money is no concern'

Its been established that the second is what was initially intended. Anything can be afforded is what was meant by the comment.
mstateglfr is offline  
Likes For mstateglfr:
Old 09-07-21, 12:23 PM
  #125  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Is impact/crash damage susceptibility or robustness not potentially part of the equation and this discussion?
Replacement cost, too, due to crashes could also be considered.
njkayaker is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.