Schwinn Hi-Bread 650B(odge) Project
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Schwinn Hi-Bread 650B(odge) Project
Cheers, everyone. Happy Labor Day.
Contemplating a bad idea in a serious way. One could argue the definition of "hobby" is spending a spare bit of money on something you shouldn't, using time you'll never get back, I suppose.
The Project Bike:
Picked up a lugged '91 (I think) CrissCross frameset for $40. I suppose with the canti-brakes included not entirely throwing money away. I was trying to figure out if these were Taiwanese made or sourced out of China. Seems really difficult to tell with the state of Schwinn at the time. I think it's the '91 CrissCrosseseses that came from China, TIG welded.
https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCa...0/1991_16.html
- frameset as purchased for $40 American Dollars
I'll be dumping images here as things "progress": https://www.bikeforums.net/g/album/22071384#
Some Measurements, center to center:
TT: 60cm; ST: 55cm; CS: 43cm; HT: 13cm; BB to Front Axle: 66cm; Wheelbase: ?? 130mm rear hub width; Seat post: 26.6mm
BB Drop: 70mm ; Tire Clearance: sold in 1991 with 700c X 38mm (and mine fit also, see gallery); BB to ground: 290mm with 700c X 38mm tires
For comparison I've included pics of my GUNNAR CrossHairs (BB to gnd: 280mm), The Most Comfortable Bike in the World, and my touring/camping/commuter RockHopper ( BB to gnd: 295mm w/ 26in x 2.0in tires)
- Dunno the Baby-Bronco Sport tire size……
The Bodge:
Relocate the canti-brake bosses to work with 650B wheels (7mm offset for front; 9mm for rear): https://cycle-frames.com/products/20...40125656629406
add down tube shifter bosses https://cycle-frames.com/products/20...40125482696862
add mid-fork rack bosses
rattle can the frame purple, black-purple! https://www.montana-cans.com/en/spra...d-400ml-colors
I’ve silver brazed rack bosses, bottle bosses, and shifter bosses before with MAPP/air. I’m a bit nervous about silver brazing brake bosses. The forces on them are higher and cyclical. It’s not like I’ve never gone over the handle bars before, it’s just I’ve never enjoyed it. So having a brake boss pop off and pull the brake cables into the front wheel….. welp, I suppose it could happen on my 30 year old RockHopper (or 35 year old Miyata) as well.
Sheldon Brown makes brazing brake bosses look easy! I just need to bodge a jig first: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-fixture.html
On the other hand, I’m $90 and 3 hours of driving from having a pro do it: https://www.assenmachers.com/about/2...rame-pg171.htm
Locating the bosses, I’m assuming this is correct: Zen and the Art of Bicycle Building: braze-on distances index
700C(622) = 283mm
650B(584) = 265mm
26"(559) = 253.5mm
A post center to post center measurement of 80mm works best for most.
Components:
650B wheels, of course. I figure I’ll have to build those, as I almost never see 650B rim brake wheelsets for sale. Contemplating going with a generator hub, up market to a SON, if I can. Probably Cliffhanger rims, as my RockHopper has been on a set of those for a couple of years. Heavy, but round and true. For tires I gotta go with 50mm, like my RockHopper. With 650b X 50mm, I am estimating the bike will only be 7mm lower than the 700c X 38mm. The blue tape on the frame are measurements with best guesses where a 50mm tire will end up in the frame. I anticipate having clearance where I need it.
Shifting: To get things rolling I’ll probably use SHIMANO Z-series road components in my parts bin, FD-Z7202 / RD-Z503. Or I got some DEORE LX front/rear mechs. Suggestions? Maybe the DEORE works better if I use a triple crankset? Not sure.
Crankset: Not sure. I’ve got a CAMPY double, 170mm. Rings are OK. I also have a DEORE triple crankset 175mm, but no rings. The GUNNAR has 175. My Schwinn Super Le Tour 12.2 also, I think. And my TREK 420 & Miyata 1000 have 170mm. The RockHopper.... I need to check. My BIANCHI trail bike, 170mm.
I’ve got a set of DT Rivendell shifters I plan on using. I’ve got a couple sets of DIA COMP cantibrakes, so I’ll start off with those. Since the TT is so long, I’m planning on Albatross bars, I’ve got a set on Schwinn Super Le Tour 12.2, and I like them pretty well. Not sure about brake levers. Tempted to go up market with some Paul’s. I have a set on my RockHopper, and I lover that there no “up/down” play, like my $20 Dia Comps on my Miyata.
I think that’s it for the moment. Now I finally got this typed up and posted, I’ll get my braze-on bits ordered so I can start practicing (I've got another RockHopper frame that's cracked 'round the bottom bracket, so I'm going to practice on that).
I’d like to get the frame, brazed, stripped, and primer’d before it’s too cold to spray in the garage. If I can get anywhere as near a nice job as the dude with the StumpJumper, I'll be geeked.
Any warnings, discouragements, dope-slaps, etc. are much appreciated.
Ciao!
Contemplating a bad idea in a serious way. One could argue the definition of "hobby" is spending a spare bit of money on something you shouldn't, using time you'll never get back, I suppose.
The Project Bike:
Picked up a lugged '91 (I think) CrissCross frameset for $40. I suppose with the canti-brakes included not entirely throwing money away. I was trying to figure out if these were Taiwanese made or sourced out of China. Seems really difficult to tell with the state of Schwinn at the time. I think it's the '91 CrissCrosseseses that came from China, TIG welded.
https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCa...0/1991_16.html
- frameset as purchased for $40 American Dollars
I'll be dumping images here as things "progress": https://www.bikeforums.net/g/album/22071384#
Some Measurements, center to center:
TT: 60cm; ST: 55cm; CS: 43cm; HT: 13cm; BB to Front Axle: 66cm; Wheelbase: ?? 130mm rear hub width; Seat post: 26.6mm
BB Drop: 70mm ; Tire Clearance: sold in 1991 with 700c X 38mm (and mine fit also, see gallery); BB to ground: 290mm with 700c X 38mm tires
For comparison I've included pics of my GUNNAR CrossHairs (BB to gnd: 280mm), The Most Comfortable Bike in the World, and my touring/camping/commuter RockHopper ( BB to gnd: 295mm w/ 26in x 2.0in tires)
- Dunno the Baby-Bronco Sport tire size……
The Bodge:
Relocate the canti-brake bosses to work with 650B wheels (7mm offset for front; 9mm for rear): https://cycle-frames.com/products/20...40125656629406
add down tube shifter bosses https://cycle-frames.com/products/20...40125482696862
add mid-fork rack bosses
rattle can the frame purple, black-purple! https://www.montana-cans.com/en/spra...d-400ml-colors
I’ve silver brazed rack bosses, bottle bosses, and shifter bosses before with MAPP/air. I’m a bit nervous about silver brazing brake bosses. The forces on them are higher and cyclical. It’s not like I’ve never gone over the handle bars before, it’s just I’ve never enjoyed it. So having a brake boss pop off and pull the brake cables into the front wheel….. welp, I suppose it could happen on my 30 year old RockHopper (or 35 year old Miyata) as well.
Sheldon Brown makes brazing brake bosses look easy! I just need to bodge a jig first: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-fixture.html
On the other hand, I’m $90 and 3 hours of driving from having a pro do it: https://www.assenmachers.com/about/2...rame-pg171.htm
Locating the bosses, I’m assuming this is correct: Zen and the Art of Bicycle Building: braze-on distances index
700C(622) = 283mm
650B(584) = 265mm
26"(559) = 253.5mm
A post center to post center measurement of 80mm works best for most.
Components:
650B wheels, of course. I figure I’ll have to build those, as I almost never see 650B rim brake wheelsets for sale. Contemplating going with a generator hub, up market to a SON, if I can. Probably Cliffhanger rims, as my RockHopper has been on a set of those for a couple of years. Heavy, but round and true. For tires I gotta go with 50mm, like my RockHopper. With 650b X 50mm, I am estimating the bike will only be 7mm lower than the 700c X 38mm. The blue tape on the frame are measurements with best guesses where a 50mm tire will end up in the frame. I anticipate having clearance where I need it.
Shifting: To get things rolling I’ll probably use SHIMANO Z-series road components in my parts bin, FD-Z7202 / RD-Z503. Or I got some DEORE LX front/rear mechs. Suggestions? Maybe the DEORE works better if I use a triple crankset? Not sure.
Crankset: Not sure. I’ve got a CAMPY double, 170mm. Rings are OK. I also have a DEORE triple crankset 175mm, but no rings. The GUNNAR has 175. My Schwinn Super Le Tour 12.2 also, I think. And my TREK 420 & Miyata 1000 have 170mm. The RockHopper.... I need to check. My BIANCHI trail bike, 170mm.
I’ve got a set of DT Rivendell shifters I plan on using. I’ve got a couple sets of DIA COMP cantibrakes, so I’ll start off with those. Since the TT is so long, I’m planning on Albatross bars, I’ve got a set on Schwinn Super Le Tour 12.2, and I like them pretty well. Not sure about brake levers. Tempted to go up market with some Paul’s. I have a set on my RockHopper, and I lover that there no “up/down” play, like my $20 Dia Comps on my Miyata.
I think that’s it for the moment. Now I finally got this typed up and posted, I’ll get my braze-on bits ordered so I can start practicing (I've got another RockHopper frame that's cracked 'round the bottom bracket, so I'm going to practice on that).
I’d like to get the frame, brazed, stripped, and primer’d before it’s too cold to spray in the garage. If I can get anywhere as near a nice job as the dude with the StumpJumper, I'll be geeked.
Any warnings, discouragements, dope-slaps, etc. are much appreciated.
Ciao!
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You are brave and I think it's way cool!
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Another thing I'm hoping to try is adding a boss to the chain stay for a Nivex derailleur. Probably I'll never get the Nivex derailleur, as my understanding is Jan Heine is going to be selling them for about $1000. (I certainly will NEVER be able to afford an 80th anniversary Rene Herse at $14k!! https://www.renehersecycles.com/nivex-or-etap/)
But if things pan out for me, I hope to have the frame good to go. So I had plans to open this patient anyway.
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[begin rant]
Something Mr. Grant Peterson at RivBike.com has pointed out is the relatively environmental friendliness of steel bikes. All the scrap left over from frame building can be recycled. If the scrap does end up in the ocean it sinks! Once it sinks it will just dissolve over time.
Carbon fiber cannot be recycled. The plastic that does end up in the ocean floats! And it just keeps breaking down into smaller bits - and now it's in our food stream! Good night!
I'm not a left winger / enviro-nut, but when I see the proliferation of more and more plastic stuff, I might just end up being one by not changing at all. [end unnecessary rant]
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This looks like a good project.
I think that bronze brazing the canti bosses will be better than silver brazing. There are a few people that hang out on C&V that are frame builders, so I hope that they can give you a more experienced opinion. If not, post the question under Framebuilding.
One of the things that I am looking into for frame modifications is the use of propane - oxygen. It gets hot enough to braze. Propane is widely available and the oxygen can be had from a used oxygen concentrator that are sometime sold on Craigslist.
I think that bronze brazing the canti bosses will be better than silver brazing. There are a few people that hang out on C&V that are frame builders, so I hope that they can give you a more experienced opinion. If not, post the question under Framebuilding.
One of the things that I am looking into for frame modifications is the use of propane - oxygen. It gets hot enough to braze. Propane is widely available and the oxygen can be had from a used oxygen concentrator that are sometime sold on Craigslist.
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This looks like a good project.
I think that bronze brazing the canti bosses will be better than silver brazing. There are a few people that hang out on C&V that are frame builders, so I hope that they can give you a more experienced opinion. If not, post the question under Framebuilding.
One of the things that I am looking into for frame modifications is the use of propane - oxygen. It gets hot enough to braze. Propane is widely available and the oxygen can be had from a used oxygen concentrator that are sometime sold on Craigslist.
I think that bronze brazing the canti bosses will be better than silver brazing. There are a few people that hang out on C&V that are frame builders, so I hope that they can give you a more experienced opinion. If not, post the question under Framebuilding.
One of the things that I am looking into for frame modifications is the use of propane - oxygen. It gets hot enough to braze. Propane is widely available and the oxygen can be had from a used oxygen concentrator that are sometime sold on Craigslist.
I've bookmarked / re-reading through a number of older posts on the silver vs. bronze discussion. I've played around with MAPP/air trying to get bronze to flow, and for me it's a no-go. I've seen some Harbor Freight kits with propane / O2 (harbor freight.... what could go wrong with pressurized tanks and open flames......? )
Probably I'll give the silver brazing with MAPP/air a try, and if I give myself a vote of NO CONFIDENCE, I'll see what my options are. (like taking the thing to a pro to do vs. the costs of a torch head and other equipment).
#9
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I have done a lot of silver brazing over many years as an engineering tech testing cars and heavy trucks, if you do it correctly, you couldn’t knock the bosses off with a sledgehammer.
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It's not uncommon for framebuilders to use silver for brake bosses, as long as you have a good miter with no visible gaps, and get good penetration all around. Brass/bronze is more forgiving.
Since cantilever bosses are relatively cheap, do a practice run and test the strength. That's what I do when attempting something new.
Example: when I was working on a new decaleur design, I did a destructive test on 3:
You can see a small crack in the filler on the right side, but it had to be bent 90 degrees to the side to get that way. I called this one "strong enough"
Since cantilever bosses are relatively cheap, do a practice run and test the strength. That's what I do when attempting something new.
Example: when I was working on a new decaleur design, I did a destructive test on 3:
You can see a small crack in the filler on the right side, but it had to be bent 90 degrees to the side to get that way. I called this one "strong enough"
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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#11
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sloooow progess
Working on a fixture for the canti posts.
also thought I’d see how difficult it is to remove a post with a MAPP torch, using my busted RockHopper….
also thought I’d see how difficult it is to remove a post with a MAPP torch, using my busted RockHopper….
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Looks like you've already decided to proceed with the plan. For what it's worth, I've silver brazed brake bosses using MAP gas for both cantilever brakes and frame-mounted centerpulls on a few different bikes and I haven't had one fail yet. I'm always careful to get a very tight fitting miter. One bike with frame mounted centerpulls has been ridden nearly 20,000 miles since I brazed on the posts, and it's still holding together.
Go for it! I love to see forgotten old bikes being brought back to life.
Steve
Go for it! I love to see forgotten old bikes being brought back to life.
Steve
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Clean, prep and have a pro do them in “Brass”.
you need big heat and control.
do learn to do brass
pay more if you can don some safety goggles and watch him. A demo will be worth the price.
you need big heat and control.
do learn to do brass
pay more if you can don some safety goggles and watch him. A demo will be worth the price.
#14
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sil-braze practice
Seems like I to ride more than bodge, so my post fixture took me a long time….. and several beers…..
pic below is just about the final version.
the boss below is a silver braze. I’m going to practice a couple more times.
i tried brass braze, as I had the stuff laying around, and as the previous reply said, “ya need big heat”. While my mob name is Vinnie Bag’o Donuts, my Ojibwa name must be Lil’ Heat.
pic below is just about the final version.
the boss below is a silver braze. I’m going to practice a couple more times.
i tried brass braze, as I had the stuff laying around, and as the previous reply said, “ya need big heat”. While my mob name is Vinnie Bag’o Donuts, my Ojibwa name must be Lil’ Heat.
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more sili-practice
practice with a little clean up
I think I see my problem….
cheers….
I think I see my problem….
cheers….
#16
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DT shifter bosses
The DT cable stops were attached with silver braze. Man, the stuff melts fast!
i ended up with a smoking hot boss in my shop apron pocket. I kind pulled the whole deal away from me until it melted through and fell out. I recon I should be careful.
DT shifter bosses are attached. Sil-braze. The location pretty much meets my standards.
RivShifters. The right one has a lot of play. Not sure why.
The left one got bashed a while ago when my bike fell over- the bar end pod got busted.
i ended up with a smoking hot boss in my shop apron pocket. I kind pulled the whole deal away from me until it melted through and fell out. I recon I should be careful.
DT shifter bosses are attached. Sil-braze. The location pretty much meets my standards.
RivShifters. The right one has a lot of play. Not sure why.
The left one got bashed a while ago when my bike fell over- the bar end pod got busted.
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About your RivShifter... I bet that the plastic disc insert rotated when you tightened the post down. At least, that's what happened to me, more than once, when I installed my Silver downtubers last month.
They have only one correct orientation, and they really like to not be in it. If they're not, (and they don't want to be,) the lever sits loose on the boss.
--Shannon
They have only one correct orientation, and they really like to not be in it. If they're not, (and they don't want to be,) the lever sits loose on the boss.
--Shannon
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About your RivShifter... I bet that the plastic disc insert rotated when you tightened the post down. At least, that's what happened to me, more than once, when I installed my Silver downtubers last month.
They have only one correct orientation, and they really like to not be in it. If they're not, (and they don't want to be,) the lever sits loose on the boss.
--Shannon
They have only one correct orientation, and they really like to not be in it. If they're not, (and they don't want to be,) the lever sits loose on the boss.
--Shannon
I think I have a bit more filing to do do, to get the shifter stop to seat a little tighter to the frame.
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fi·as·co
/fēˈaskō/
noun
The rear triangle canti bosses were brass braze. Melted off. Easy to clean up.
The fork canti bosses were TIG welded. I hack sawed then off. Then the rasp file to take down the bits of boss left after sawing. The rasp file requires care and caution. I used about 3/8 ths of each. So I got a 1mm deep gouge on the front of the fork blade.
The frame builders section gave me ample warning about compromising the fork.
Making things worse, the upper part of the new boss falls over the gouge. Fiasco.
Anyway, I brazed the bosses up.
Left image shows the boss over the gap.
The scars are from the TIG welds.
Welp, probably I’ll strip the paint and coat with a permatex primer. It’s too cold to spray paint until spring.
Maybe I’ll build up the Wheelset this winter. If that happens I might post an update.
That gives me plenty of time to decide if I ever want to ride the bike or not.
Or I might try to find another victim for this project.
cheers for now.
/fēˈaskō/
noun
- a thing that is a complete failure, especially in a ludicrous or humiliating way.
The rear triangle canti bosses were brass braze. Melted off. Easy to clean up.
The fork canti bosses were TIG welded. I hack sawed then off. Then the rasp file to take down the bits of boss left after sawing. The rasp file requires care and caution. I used about 3/8 ths of each. So I got a 1mm deep gouge on the front of the fork blade.
The frame builders section gave me ample warning about compromising the fork.
Making things worse, the upper part of the new boss falls over the gouge. Fiasco.
Anyway, I brazed the bosses up.
Left image shows the boss over the gap.
The scars are from the TIG welds.
Welp, probably I’ll strip the paint and coat with a permatex primer. It’s too cold to spray paint until spring.
Maybe I’ll build up the Wheelset this winter. If that happens I might post an update.
That gives me plenty of time to decide if I ever want to ride the bike or not.
Or I might try to find another victim for this project.
cheers for now.
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Last year I mentioned PERMATEX brush on primer. Somebody give me a dope slap next time I bring that *^$# up.
NOW I'm trying to get the frame smooth, but man! is that PERMATEX stuff tough. So sanding - lots of sanding. I would have started on this sooner (no, really!), but instead I went for a bike ride. A bunch of them, really.
Anyway - I'm just trying to get the surface smooth, with the low grit number / abrasive screens / wire brush. I got a few more sessions to go. I might break down and get the aircraft stripper out.
OK - that's it for now.
Painting Reference Links I want to find again: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...pjumper-4.html
https://m.bikeforums.net/showthread....1215931&page=1
https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuil...lear-coat.html
ps - is it a zombie thread if I bring it back? i dunno - maybe should have built the wheels over the winter for motivation.
cheers.
NOW I'm trying to get the frame smooth, but man! is that PERMATEX stuff tough. So sanding - lots of sanding. I would have started on this sooner (no, really!), but instead I went for a bike ride. A bunch of them, really.
Anyway - I'm just trying to get the surface smooth, with the low grit number / abrasive screens / wire brush. I got a few more sessions to go. I might break down and get the aircraft stripper out.
OK - that's it for now.
Painting Reference Links I want to find again: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...pjumper-4.html
https://m.bikeforums.net/showthread....1215931&page=1
https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuil...lear-coat.html
ps - is it a zombie thread if I bring it back? i dunno - maybe should have built the wheels over the winter for motivation.
cheers.
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Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)
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It's your thread -- sometimes an epic tale takes a while to tell.
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#22
buy my bikes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Michigan
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Bikes: my very own customized GUNNAR CrossHairs
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is the opposite of congress progress?
progress- welp, primer!
One full can of spray.bike primer.
So which did I screw up? Too thick at once primer coat? Or ordering only one can of purple for the color coat?
Kinda nervous I now need more than one can of color…
One full can of spray.bike primer.
So which did I screw up? Too thick at once primer coat? Or ordering only one can of purple for the color coat?
Kinda nervous I now need more than one can of color…
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#23
Senior Member
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Location: Madison, WI USA
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Wow, I thought I was big at 10lb 8oz.....
I vaguely recall the rough guide being 2:1, that is, however much primer you use, you need twice as much color. But it's been 40 years and many dead brain cells since I last painted a bike.
I vaguely recall the rough guide being 2:1, that is, however much primer you use, you need twice as much color. But it's been 40 years and many dead brain cells since I last painted a bike.
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#24
PeopleCode delaminator
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#25
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Join Date: May 2013
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Curious why you used paint for storage and not grease or cosmoline
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Genesis 49:16-17
Genesis 49:16-17