Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

If you get doored, who's at fault?

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

If you get doored, who's at fault?

Old 06-18-20, 09:43 AM
  #1  
mtb_addict
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 265
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3307 Post(s)
Liked 78 Times in 65 Posts
If you get doored, who's at fault?

bicyclist or driver?
mtb_addict is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 10:13 AM
  #2  
Moe Zhoost
Half way there
 
Moe Zhoost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,955

Bikes: Many, and the list changes frequently

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 985 Post(s)
Liked 879 Times in 526 Posts
Driver. The only fault of the cyclist is putting him or herself into the line of fire.
Moe Zhoost is offline  
Likes For Moe Zhoost:
Old 06-18-20, 10:14 AM
  #3  
flangehead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 903

Bikes: 2017 Co-op ADV 1.1; ~1991 Novara Arriba; 1990 Fuji Palisade; mid-90's Moots Tandem; 1985 Performance Superbe

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 385 Post(s)
Liked 562 Times in 328 Posts
Physics says 99% of the time the damage/pain/death is the cyclist’s.

I understand your question is legal but a reminder where the impact lies.

Stay out of the door zone.
flangehead is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 10:36 AM
  #4  
Drew Eckhardt 
Senior Member
 
Drew Eckhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mountain View, CA USA and Golden, CO USA
Posts: 6,341

Bikes: 97 Litespeed, 50-39-30x13-26 10 cogs, Campagnolo Ultrashift, retroreflective rims on SON28/PowerTap hubs

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Liked 325 Times in 226 Posts
Originally Posted by mtb_addict
bicyclist or driver?
The driver, although the cyclist allowed that to happen by cycling within four feet of parked cars.

Most places require you to cycle as far right as practical without requiring bike lane use, and that's 11' from the curb where parked cars are present.

This is more important now that smart phones are ubiquitous, with many drivers delaying vehicle exit so they can check their email, social media, etc.

A Review of the Cambridge, Massachusetts bike lane study
Drew Eckhardt is offline  
Likes For Drew Eckhardt:
Old 06-18-20, 11:21 AM
  #5  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2111 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt
Most places require you to cycle as far right as practical without requiring bike lane use, and that's 11' from the curb where parked cars are present.
"Practicable." There's a whole subforum dedicated to arguing over whether that's 12', 14', or *SEVENTEEN FEET* from the curb. (Obviously, all lanes are substandard.)

Reducto absurdum, we can get to Joey's Razor, everything is our fault for swimming with sharks, it's a war zone out there, blah blah blah blah.

(BTW, Massachusetts isn't a FRAP state.)

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 06-18-20 at 11:26 AM.
mr_bill is offline  
Likes For mr_bill:
Old 06-18-20, 11:33 AM
  #6  
kingston 
Jedi Master
 
kingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lake Forest, IL
Posts: 3,724

Bikes: https://stinkston.blogspot.com/p/my-bikes.html

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1759 Post(s)
Liked 488 Times in 313 Posts
Irrelevant. Don't ride in the door zone and you won't get doored.
kingston is offline  
Likes For kingston:
Old 06-18-20, 11:33 AM
  #7  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,655

Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times in 640 Posts
How wide is the door zone? It's quite a bit wider than a lot of bicyclists think.


and


If a painted bicycle lane is in the door zone and there are parked cars next to it, STAY OUT OF THAT DOOR ZONE!

Cheers
Miele Man is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 11:44 AM
  #8  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2111 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
And mr. door has checked in. Again. (Again, there's a WHOLE SUBFORUM for this propaganda.)

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 01:19 PM
  #9  
Iride01 
I'm good to go!
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,811

Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020

Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6100 Post(s)
Liked 4,732 Times in 3,262 Posts
Depends on the regulations, laws, and bias of those involved in deciding in your area. In a shared liability jurisdiction, then though the person opening the door might be at fault, what does that say for the cyclist where rules suggest they stay far enough away from parked vehicles to avoid doorings? Many of the bike lane rules say you can and should leave a bike lane for such. If a jury finds both share partial blame then it becomes not so clear cut.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 02:42 PM
  #10  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2111 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
Consult your own lawyer, free interwebs legal advice is worth every penny, *ESPECIALLY* from someone not licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction.

In pure contributory negligence jurisdictions, if the injured is in any way responsible for their injuries (typically 1%), you get NOTHING. (That's Alabama, Maryland, North Carolina, and Virginia. DC too, except if you are on a bicycle or on foot.)

So, ride "too right" and get hit by someone opening a door, you get NOTHING. Ride "too left" and get hit by someone passing you in a car, you get NOTHING. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

(In comparative negligence jurisdictions, typically if you are more than 50% at fault, you get NOTHING. If you are less than 50% at fault, your damages are reduced by the percent you were found at fault. You know the police officer who gave YOU a ticket for hitting a car door, rather than giving the person in the car a ticket for hitting you with their door? YOU GET NOTHING! The same police officer who gave YOU a ticket for "taking the lane?" YOU GET NOTHING!)



-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 06-18-20 at 02:52 PM.
mr_bill is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 03:03 PM
  #11  
Clyde1820
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 1,944

Bikes: 1996 Trek 970 ZX Single Track 2x11

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 610 Post(s)
Liked 558 Times in 423 Posts
Originally Posted by mtb_addict
If you get doored, whos at fault?
If the spot where the door opens is a legitimate lane, then 100% of the time it's the driver's failure to view oncoming traffic and yield.

That said, it's hard not to assume a solid (even majority) percentage of parked drivers are going to fail to even look. In that sense, a cyclist might well be grossly disregarding of the chances. But I wouldn't go so far as to suggest it's ever the cyclist's fault -- as the cause was disregard for oncoming traffic and failure to look, not the oncoming traffic itself.

JMO


That being said, I was taught how to drive a motor vehicle by a pair of exceptionally retentive defensive drivers. They were perfect as driving instructors. To this day, I still hear their little warning bells ringing in my head as situations arise. I almost always see something coming, imagine it could be worse, and thus avoid things that many would simply ride/drive right into. Because I suspect every other moving or parked vehicle, every pedestrian, every dog on a leash ... everything that might be a risk, if the stars align. One thing I try to do in tight spaces is: ride the bike in the vehicle lane, as just another vehicle on that road. Much safer. Where that's impossible, I generally slow my pace so that if a mindless parked driver does swing the door open without concern or looking, it's more likely I'll be able to brake or avoid the worst of it.
Clyde1820 is offline  
Likes For Clyde1820:
Old 06-18-20, 05:21 PM
  #12  
Pop N Wood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,379

Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 667 Post(s)
Liked 529 Times in 355 Posts
Who cares?

Ride to protect yourself and don't worry about right of way.
Pop N Wood is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 05:33 PM
  #13  
ridelikeaturtle
Senior Member
 
ridelikeaturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 1,259

Bikes: Bianchi Ti Megatube; Colnago Competition; Planet-X EC-130E; Klein Pulse; Amp Research B4; Litespeed Catalyst; Trek Y11

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 596 Post(s)
Liked 476 Times in 258 Posts
Originally Posted by mtb_addict
bicyclist or driver?
As always with Advocacy & Safety threads... <sigh>

Without regard to: victim-blaming the cyclist for riding here, or there, in the lane; or whatever they were or were not wearing; or if they were drinking at the time; or the laws in your particular region or jurisdiction...

The driver is 100% at fault for not looking before opening their door into a cyclist.
ridelikeaturtle is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 05:36 PM
  #14  
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 9,201
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 289 Times in 177 Posts
Originally Posted by kingston
Irrelevant. Don't ride in the door zone and you won't get doored.
If I got doored I would accept 100% of the blame.
gregf83 is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 07:04 PM
  #15  
debade
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: WA
Posts: 476

Bikes: Trek Domane, Trek 2120, Trek 520, Schwinn Voyager step through

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 168 Post(s)
Liked 105 Times in 77 Posts
If you feel like advocating, you could encourage the 'dutch reach'. I attached an article that describes this car door opening technique. There might be others or better ones. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#54f9f083535e
debade is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 07:14 PM
  #16  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,655

Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times in 640 Posts
I know a bicyclist who was riding in the door zone of a stopped taxi. The driver opened up the door and the bicyclist ran into it, flipped and injured his back. The result? The bicyclist eventually settled for $500,000 Canadian. The driver had been stopped in a no stopping zone. Seems to me that the court completely overlooked the fact that the bicyclist was riding in the door zone. Btw, there was no bicycle lane there. The bicyclist should have moved into the adjacent lane to pass the stopped vehicle. So, in my opinion, that should have been a 50/50 share of the blame.

Cheers
Miele Man is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 07:22 PM
  #17  
Clyde1820
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 1,944

Bikes: 1996 Trek 970 ZX Single Track 2x11

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 610 Post(s)
Liked 558 Times in 423 Posts
Originally Posted by Miele Man
I know a bicyclist who was riding in the door zone of a stopped taxi. The driver opened up the door and the bicyclist ran into it, flipped and injured his back. The result? The bicyclist eventually settled for $500,000 Canadian. The driver had been stopped in a no stopping zone. Seems to me that the court completely overlooked the fact that the bicyclist was riding in the door zone. Btw, there was no bicycle lane there. The bicyclist should have moved into the adjacent lane to pass the stopped vehicle. So, in my opinion, that should have been a 50/50 share of the blame.
Had it instead been an oncoming car that struck that blindly-opened door?

Don't know the specifics of the "lane" involved in the situation you describe, above. But if it's a lane for vehicles and the cyclist is just another vehicle, then it's hard to blame the oncoming vehicle for being where it's supposed to be. No matter the type of vehicle.
Clyde1820 is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 07:43 PM
  #18  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,655

Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times in 640 Posts
Originally Posted by Clyde1820
Had it instead been an oncoming car that struck that blindly-opened door?

Don't know the specifics of the "lane" involved in the situation you describe, above. But if it's a lane for vehicles and the cyclist is just another vehicle, then it's hard to blame the oncoming vehicle for being where it's supposed to be. No matter the type of vehicle.
Here was the situation.

Two lanes eastbound. Stopped car in the right lane. Bicyclist or other vehicle should move into the left lane to pass the stopped vehicle. Bicyclist elected to stay in the right land and squeeze by the stopped vehicle. Door of stopped vehicle opens and bicyclist runs into and is catapulted off the bicycle and over the door. Had the bicyclist been a motor vehicle he's have been in the wrong for not moving into the adjacent left lane in order to pass the stopped vehicle.

Like I said, it seems to me that the blame for the crash here is shared 50/50 by the driver and the bicyclist. Incidentally, the bicyclist was suing originally for $1,000,000 but settled for the $500,000 because the case was dragging on for a long time.

Cheers
Miele Man is offline  
Old 06-18-20, 07:44 PM
  #19  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2111 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
Originally Posted by Miele Man
Seems to me that the court completely overlooked the fact that the bicyclist was riding in the door zone.

....

Cheers
Seems to me you completely overlook the “fact” that the bicyclist was riding in the road.

...

Skĺl!

-mr. bill
mr_bill is offline  
Likes For mr_bill:
Old 06-19-20, 07:17 AM
  #20  
Jim from Boston
Senior Member
 
Jim from Boston's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,384
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 218 Times in 171 Posts
If you get doored, whos at fault?
Originally Posted by mtb_addict
bicyclist or driver?
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt
The driver, although the cyclist allowed that to happen by cycling within four feet of parked cars.
Originally Posted by mr_bill
Consult your own lawyer…
Originally Posted by kingston
Irrelevant. Don't ride in the door zone and you won't get doored.
Having been hit from behind and securing a legal judgement, IMO the subsequent outcome was not worth the disabilities and hassles. So while I don’t consider the question “irrelevant” I think it is inconsequential.


While it is prudent to avoid the door zone, many consider take the lane to be unwise, but especially on urban roads, lane position IMO is “situational,” and situational awareness becomes paramount.



I have touted this following video to illustrate the abruptness of dooring, and demonstrate a complete lack of situational awareness:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
So in answer to what I think would be sobering yet important messages to commuters would be videos of dangerous situations such as:

"Police urged to charge passenger after cyclist car-doored"

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...318-34zr2.html
˅˅˅˅

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 06-22-20 at 06:58 AM.
Jim from Boston is offline  
Likes For Jim from Boston:
Old 06-19-20, 07:18 AM
  #21  
Jim from Boston
Senior Member
 
Jim from Boston's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,384
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 218 Times in 171 Posts
˄˄˄˄
Originally Posted by Clyde1820
If the spot where the door opens is a legitimate lane, then 100% of the time it's the driver's failure to view oncoming traffic and yield.

That said, it's hard not to assume a solid (even majority) percentage of parked drivers are going to fail to even look. In that sense, a cyclist might well be grossly disregarding of the chances. But I wouldn't go so far as to suggest it's ever the cyclist's fault -- as the cause was disregard for oncoming traffic and failure to look, not the oncoming traffic itself.

JMO

That being said, I was taught how to drive a motor vehicle by a pair of exceptionally retentive defensive drivers. They were perfect as driving instructors. To this day, I still hear their little warning bells ringing in my head as situations arise. I almost always see something coming, imagine it could be worse, and thus avoid things that many would simply ride/drive right into.

Because I suspect every other moving or parked vehicle, every pedestrian, every dog on a leash ... everything that might be a risk, if the stars align.

One thing I try to do in tight spaces is: ride the bike in the vehicle lane, as just another vehicle on that road. Much safer. Where that's impossible, I generally slow my pace so that if a mindless parked driver does swing the door open without concern or looking, it's more likely I'll be able to brake or avoid the worst of it.
+100 to this attitude. I have similarly posted:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
So often on these threads about calamities or near misses, I post about my mindset that I believe gives me that extra edge
Originally Posted by FBinNY
In all fairness, I don't think there's anyone who's been riding for a long time, who hasn't at some time (or many times) ridden in that zone where the only thing separating us from disaster is favorable alignment of the stars. (Note the "us" rather than "him")

We all take chances and make mistakes, but fortunately life is"organized" with plenty of forgiveness.In my experience the difference between disaster and "whew, that was close" is millimeters and microseconds, and not anything we can take credit for.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
I try to keep safe with certain aphorisms in my head that come to mind to alert me when I encounter a situation where unseen dangers may lurk, such as “Like a weapon, assume every stopped car is loaded, with an occupant ready to exit from either side.” or“Don’t ride over an area (such as puddles or leaves) when you can’t see the road surface."

…I was hit from behind by a “distracted” (? inebriated) hit and run driver on an otherwise seemingly safe and peaceful route. By good fortune, I’m alive and relatively unimpaired.

Over the past few months I have come to realize that my safety aphorisms (link), collected over the years by personal or vicarious experience, are my way of actively aligning the stars in my favor, to anticipate those unseen and otherwise unanticipated dangers.

FWIW, for my own information at least, my other aphorisms beside those above [include]:
  • ...
  • ...
  • ...
  • Jim’s Law of the Road: “No matter how well-paved and lightly traveled the Road, a vehicle is likely to pass on the left as you encounter an obstacle on the right.”…my argument to wear a rearview mirror.

    Those are all I remember for now, and they all pop-up in my mind as I encounter the situation.

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 06-19-20 at 07:53 AM.
Jim from Boston is offline  
Old 06-19-20, 07:48 AM
  #22  
mtb_addict
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 265
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3307 Post(s)
Liked 78 Times in 65 Posts
wow! the video makes a good point about your instinctive reaction is to swerve away from a sudden door opening. In which case, you swerve into traffic...which might be worse than geeting doored.
mtb_addict is offline  
Likes For mtb_addict:
Old 06-19-20, 08:02 AM
  #23  
livedarklions
Tragically Ignorant
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times in 5,053 Posts
Closest I've had to being doored recently was when a bus driver opened the door on his bus while passing me in the middle of the block. He was nowhere near a stop and was apparently trying to cool himself. Had he actually hit me (and it was close) I'm pretty clear on who would have been at fault.

I've had a couple of these passenger side door suddenly opening in traffic situations with cars--there's literally no reasonable strategy for avoiding that possibility.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 06-19-20, 08:37 AM
  #24  
Iride01 
I'm good to go!
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,811

Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020

Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6100 Post(s)
Liked 4,732 Times in 3,262 Posts
Originally Posted by mtb_addict
wow! the video makes a good point about your instinctive reaction is to swerve away from a sudden door opening. In which case, you swerve into traffic...which might be worse than geeting doored.
IMO, that's why there shouldn't be a bike lane. If the cyclist had already been in the traffic mix, then there wouldn't be a dooring. Nor would there be both a cyclist in a avoidance maneuver with the door and potentially a motor vehicle in a avoidance maneuver with the cyclist at the same time.

Cycling paths of this sort just many times confuse right-of-way rules and even the application of common sense when actions are performed in the heat of the moment. Such paths also make persons in motor vehicles forget to include cyclist in their perception of traffic flow.

Since most drivers have only taken a driving test once in their lives and a cyclist maybe never, how can it be expected that the correct actions will always be taken. Many motor vehicle drivers have never even taken a class and even if they did, that was probably many moons ago as a 16 y.o. and doubtful there was any meaningful discussion of situation recognition and avoidance.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 06-19-20, 08:48 AM
  #25  
Jim from Boston
Senior Member
 
Jim from Boston's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,384
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 218 Times in 171 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions
...I've had a couple of these passenger side door suddenly opening in traffic situations with cars--there's literally no reasonable strategy for avoiding that possibility.
I have posted myself about similar close occurences.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
+1 @wphamilton. Particularly in the urban environment you are squeezed in between a rock and a hard place....

As noted earlier in this thread I am readily aware of riding near stopped cars, but I have had car doors unexpectedly open next to me
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
I frequently post this basic rule for me, "Consider every stopped car like a weapon, loaded, with an occupant ready to exit, on either side." For example I think about that when filtering between cars stopped at a traffic light [or along the passenger side doors closer to the curb].

When I have had doors opened directly before me, I have found a scream causes the person to immediately retract back into the car like a turtle into its shell...

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 06-19-20 at 08:54 AM.
Jim from Boston is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.