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Stretching and resting

Old 05-20-21, 12:58 AM
  #26  
PaulRivers
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Originally Posted by slickrcbd
I think people missed the point of my question.
How long can I not be riding before I need to stretch again? Often I'll take a 30-45 minute rest when riding more than 3-4 miles (yes I know, I've been trying for years to get back into shape but it seems every winter I lose 90% of all progress I made).
I know I need to stretch again after 45 minutes, but how long can I be stopped and either resting, walking around (aka shopping), or standing (aka waiting in line) before I need to stretch again?
The only real answer is that you are you and youu need to try things and record/remember the results to see yourself.

As people have mentioned some people never need to or benefit from stretching, while others it helps, while for others it's almost a requirement, just nobody can tell you what would work for you.
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Old 05-20-21, 02:20 AM
  #27  
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Ah, so just trial and error. Also apparently it can change, as when I was younger I never needed to stretch and never saw the point of all those stretches at the start and usually end of gym class. It was only when I got older that I started having problems if I skipped the stretching. I just dread what will happen when I turn 60 if I had so much bad stuff when I turned 30.

I can say something else, a few years back I pulled a muscle lifting some heavy boxes at work during an upgrade when we in IT had to bring a ton (actually it was probably two tons) of computers, monitors, and equipment from a receiving area to the IT department and process it. The Orthopedist asked me if I'd stretched before doing what was essentially weight lifting. I said no, and he tsked at me and said I wasn't 18 anymore, and that I needed to stretch before lifting more than about 30-40lbs or I risk that happening. He also recommended stretching before moving a lot of boxes even if they only weigh 10-20lbs if I'm going to be moving a lot of them.
This was years AFTER I discovered I needed to stretch on the bike. '
Then years later I pulled a muscle again, this time I was working a part-time survival job at Sam's Club in the electronic department while looking for a permanent full-time job. I was asked by a customer to put two 40-packs of 500ml bottles from a nearby endcap on her cart for her. That's 44lbs of water plus the weight of 40 16.9oz bottles and packaging, somewhere between 45 and 50lbs. I picked up both at once and put them in the cart, and somehow pulled a muscle. I went to the same orthopedist who said "Didn't I tell you about the importance of stretching the last time this happened? Maybe you will learn this time." I did, and now I'm a bit paranoid about doing the few simple stretches the doctor went over with me before lifting anything heavy. So I guess stretching is now necessary for me, but it didn't used to be before I turned 30. I should mention that what the doctor told me to do before lifting heavy stuff and what my high school gym teacher made me do before using the free weights however is very different, with the gym teacher's taking far longer and being far more comprehensive, while the doctors' were just a few simple stretches.
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Old 05-20-21, 05:39 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by slickrcbd
Ah, so just trial and error. Also apparently it can change, as when I was younger I never needed to stretch and never saw the point of all those stretches at the start and usually end of gym class. It was only when I got older that I started having problems if I skipped the stretching. I just dread what will happen when I turn 60 if I had so much bad stuff when I turned 30.

I can say something else, a few years back I pulled a muscle lifting some heavy boxes at work during an upgrade when we in IT had to bring a ton (actually it was probably two tons) of computers, monitors, and equipment from a receiving area to the IT department and process it. The Orthopedist asked me if I'd stretched before doing what was essentially weight lifting. I said no, and he tsked at me and said I wasn't 18 anymore, and that I needed to stretch before lifting more than about 30-40lbs or I risk that happening. He also recommended stretching before moving a lot of boxes even if they only weigh 10-20lbs if I'm going to be moving a lot of them.
This was years AFTER I discovered I needed to stretch on the bike. '
Then years later I pulled a muscle again, this time I was working a part-time survival job at Sam's Club in the electronic department while looking for a permanent full-time job. I was asked by a customer to put two 40-packs of 500ml bottles from a nearby endcap on her cart for her. That's 44lbs of water plus the weight of 40 16.9oz bottles and packaging, somewhere between 45 and 50lbs. I picked up both at once and put them in the cart, and somehow pulled a muscle. I went to the same orthopedist who said "Didn't I tell you about the importance of stretching the last time this happened? Maybe you will learn this time." I did, and now I'm a bit paranoid about doing the few simple stretches the doctor went over with me before lifting anything heavy. So I guess stretching is now necessary for me, but it didn't used to be before I turned 30. I should mention that what the doctor told me to do before lifting heavy stuff and what my high school gym teacher made me do before using the free weights however is very different, with the gym teacher's taking far longer and being far more comprehensive, while the doctors' were just a few simple stretches.

I believe the most recent evidence on this is that stretching before strenuous activity actually makes it slightly MORE likely that you'll get injured. I'm not sure I'd want to take your orthopedist's word on this. But if it seems to be working, do it. If it doesn't, maybe look somewhere else for advice. An orthopedist really isn't a muscle specialist.
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Old 05-20-21, 07:42 AM
  #29  
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[QUOTE=guachi;22067752]
Originally Posted by Inusuit

They can list whatever they want but actual scientific study after study shows no relation between hydration or electrolytes and cramping. One study I read had participants get ridiculously dehydrated. Result? No additional cramping.

From another study: the "electrolyte depletion" and "dehydration" hypotheses do not offer plausible... mechanisms... that could adequately explain the presentation of [cramping].

You'd think if what Mayo Clinic said was true it would be easy to find lots of studies to back it up.
All of the following sources list dehydration and electrolyte imbalance as factors that contribute to muscle cramps. This is a partial list. I did find one study that said consumption of fluids after dehydration could cause cramps. Some sources say the actual cause of cramps cannot be determined for certain. Age, pregnancy, some medications, muscle overuse, fatigue, and some diseases such as multiple sclerosis also contribute to susceptibility to cramps.

​​​​​​https://www.healthline.com/health/muscle-cramps

​​​​​​https://my.clevelandclinic.org/healt...-muscle-cramps

​​​​​​https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...-muscle-cramps

​​​​​​https://facty.com/ailments/feet/10-c...-leg-cramps/7/

​​​​​​https://osteopathic.org/what-is-oste.../muscle-cramp/

​​​​​​https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/...s/muscle-cramp

​​​​​​https://muschealth.org/medical-servi...mps-and-spasms

With respect, I assume we can agree to disagree.
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Old 05-20-21, 10:22 AM
  #30  
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never stretch, and rarely cramp (once every couple of years). Think it's a nutrition issue

ride more is a winning recipe
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Old 05-20-21, 10:32 AM
  #31  
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I have never gone in for the stretching routine, but at 83, I find that cycling every other day is a good thing.
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Old 05-21-21, 06:41 AM
  #32  
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You shouldn't need to stretch before or after a 3 to 4 mile ride and certainly not in the middle of it. If you are uncomfortable riding that distance the problem is more than cycling related. Even with a poor bike fit that distance should be unremarkable for any normal adult. Work on fitness and flexibility off the bike. Walking and yoga will bring faster results.
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Old 05-21-21, 06:13 PM
  #33  
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I definitely need a warm-up on the bike, but stretching does nothing for me. I might do a little bit as a token gesture now and again. I'm not particularly flexible, but could never touch my toes without bending my knees even when I was in primary school. So I think that's more of a genetic limitation for me.
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Old 05-21-21, 06:24 PM
  #34  
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some thirty years ago, when I was thirty I was taking aerobic gym classes and thought it useless when the instructor would make us limb up with all kinds of stretching, even turning and swiveling head around, but now at 60+ I need to do these kinds of exercises, my neck makes noises when I turn/swivel my head LOL. my knees make some sounds when I do dips and overall my body flexibility around mid waist area leaves something to be desired. Still I am better off than most at this age but to keep it, I do some basic exercises besides riding my bike. Bicycling alone won't keep you fit in this regard.
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Old 05-21-21, 07:15 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I've found that stretching does absolutely nothing for me, and I regularly ride centuries without cramps. I'm 60 y.o. I think you're missing the point of the comments--there's no scientific answer to your question, and no one here can answer what's going to work for you.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think it's normal to get crampy after a 5 mile ride unless you're doing it very fast.
​​​​​​
this
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Old 05-21-21, 07:34 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Inusuit
All of the following sources list dehydration and electrolyte imbalance as factors that contribute to muscle cramps. This is a partial list. I did find one study that said consumption of fluids after dehydration could cause cramps. Some sources say the actual cause of cramps cannot be determined for certain. Age, pregnancy, some medications, muscle overuse, fatigue, and some diseases such as multiple sclerosis also contribute to susceptibility to cramps.

​​​​​​https://www.healthline.com/health/muscle-cramps

​​​​​​https://my.clevelandclinic.org/healt...-muscle-cramps

​​​​​​https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...-muscle-cramps

​​​​​​https://facty.com/ailments/feet/10-c...-leg-cramps/7/

​​​​​​https://osteopathic.org/what-is-oste.../muscle-cramp/

​​​​​​https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/...s/muscle-cramp

​​​​​​https://muschealth.org/medical-servi...mps-and-spasms

With respect, I assume we can agree to disagree.
Exactly zero of those are or reference even one scientific study. I'm not aware of any actual scientific studies that link dehydration or electrolytes to cramps but there are studies that specifically look at dehydration and electrolytes and find no relation between them and cramps.

You believe what you want. As for me, I'll trust actual science.
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Old 05-21-21, 07:42 PM
  #37  
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[QUOTE=Inusuit;22068015]
Originally Posted by guachi

All of the following sources list dehydration and electrolyte imbalance as factors that contribute to muscle cramps. This is a partial list. I did find one study that said consumption of fluids after dehydration could cause cramps. Some sources say the actual cause of cramps cannot be determined for certain. Age, pregnancy, some medications, muscle overuse, fatigue, and some diseases such as multiple sclerosis also contribute to susceptibility to cramps.

​​​​​​https://www.healthline.com/health/muscle-cramps

​​​​​​https://my.clevelandclinic.org/healt...-muscle-cramps

​​​​​​https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...-muscle-cramps

​​​​​​https://facty.com/ailments/feet/10-c...-leg-cramps/7/

​​​​​​https://osteopathic.org/what-is-oste.../muscle-cramp/

​​​​​​https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/...s/muscle-cramp

​​​​​​https://muschealth.org/medical-servi...mps-and-spasms

With respect, I assume we can agree to disagree.
Exactly zero of those are or reference even one scientific study. I'm not aware of any actual scientific studies that link dehydration or electrolytes to cramps but there are studies that specifically look at dehydration and electrolytes and find no relation between them and cramps.

As for the study you mention about consumption of fluids AFTER dehydration causing cramps that study had this to say: "It has been documented, in recent studies, that EAMC stems from an imbalance between excitatory drive from muscle spindles and inhibitory drive from Golgi tendon organs to the alpha motor neurons, rather than dehydration or electrolytes deficits".

You believe what you want. As for me, I'll trust actual science.
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Old 05-22-21, 07:35 AM
  #38  
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[QUOTE=guachi;22070559]
Originally Posted by Inusuit

Exactly zero of those are or reference even one scientific study. I'm not aware of any actual scientific studies that link dehydration or electrolytes to cramps but there are studies that specifically look at dehydration and electrolytes and find no relation between them and cramps.

As for the study you mention about consumption of fluids AFTER dehydration causing cramps that study had this to say: "It has been documented, in recent studies, that EAMC stems from an imbalance between excitatory drive from muscle spindles and inhibitory drive from Golgi tendon organs to the alpha motor neurons, rather than dehydration or electrolytes deficits".

You believe what you want. As for me, I'll trust actual science.
I suppose Harvard and the Mayo Clinic came to their conclusions by consulting chicken entrails or Tarot cards.
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Old 05-22-21, 07:47 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
Not every muscle pain is caused by insufficient flexibility

You can get muscle pain even in fully upright riding position if you suddenly do hard or high resistance efforts without warm up.
For sure. As I get older (53) I find that warming up has become more and more important. Not just muscles either, cardio too. Ideally I like to warm up slowly at very low power (<100W) for a good 15 to 20 mins before ramping up. Stretching I can do without, but prefer to stretch as a cool down rather than warm up. Stretching as a warm-up seems like a good way to risk pulling a cold muscle. I do light strength training off the bike too, which involves a bit of stretching. But I certainly don't go out of my way to stretch or follow any sort of formal stretching routine. I just stretch whenever I feel like it, similar to our dogs, lol
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Old 05-22-21, 08:56 AM
  #40  
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Every body is different, mine is extremely stiff. I stretch before & after rides and on days I don’t ride.

Regarding post ride stretches, you need to do it while your muscles are still warm.
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Old 05-22-21, 09:22 AM
  #41  
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The OP apparently is rather unique in his proclivity to cramp. Many of us can ride many miles and/hours and never cramp or need to stretch. Since he is so unique, general practices, or non-practices, don’t seem to apply to him. I would think trial and error as well as a gentle conditioning program might tell him what he needs to know.
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Old 05-22-21, 09:58 PM
  #42  
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[QUOTE=Inusuit;22070922]
Originally Posted by guachi

I suppose Harvard and the Mayo Clinic came to their conclusions by consulting chicken entrails or Tarot cards.

I think you need to read these websites a little more closely. Yes, electrolyte imbalance can cause cramping in extreme cases, but you're probably going to be too sick to workout in the first place. Seriously, it's on a list with multiple sclerosis and pregnancy! They're not describing workout-related cramping, which is listed as a different cause. With electrolyte imbalance, this is going to be system-wide cramping, not just a leg cramp.
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Old 05-23-21, 03:22 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
You just need to have a proper warm up. Warm up is what really works. Take it easy when you start the ride. Start slow, avoid going fast at the first two miles, use easy gears (install lower / easier gears on your bike for that purpose). And definitely avoid grinding hard gears at the first two miles of the ride.

The benefit you get from stretching is the warm up it causes. So why not go straight to the guy and do proper warm up on your bike?
I'm really out of shape, because I start to get tired after 2 miles and can't really go much more than 3.5 before I'm stopping at the first place I can to rest. I'm also now using a 24-speed bike with 3 gears on the pedal and 8 on the rear wheel, since when I was bike shopping I couldn't find any 10 or 12 speeds. It was either 5-speeds, 21, or 24 and the 24 was a little cheaper.

The only time I start in a higher gear is if I have to stop suddenly and don't have time to shift, and even then I try to shift by lifting up the rear wheel and pushing down on the pedal. However, I rarely use the major gear shift on the pedal and leave it in the highest gear.
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Old 05-23-21, 08:39 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by slickrcbd
I'm really out of shape, because I start to get tired after 2 miles and can't really go much more than 3.5 before I'm stopping at the first place I can to rest. I'm also now using a 24-speed bike with 3 gears on the pedal and 8 on the rear wheel, since when I was bike shopping I couldn't find any 10 or 12 speeds. It was either 5-speeds, 21, or 24 and the 24 was a little cheaper.

The only time I start in a higher gear is if I have to stop suddenly and don't have time to shift, and even then I try to shift by lifting up the rear wheel and pushing down on the pedal. However, I rarely use the major gear shift on the pedal and leave it in the highest gear.
Uh, try pedaling in an easier gear. Faster cadence. Less torque. Happier joints, shorter muscle contraction cycles, less chance to go anaerobic in 100 yards.
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Old 05-24-21, 06:50 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by slickrcbd
I'm really out of shape, because I start to get tired after 2 miles and can't really go much more than 3.5 before I'm stopping at the first place I can to rest. I'm also now using a 24-speed bike with 3 gears on the pedal and 8 on the rear wheel, since when I was bike shopping I couldn't find any 10 or 12 speeds. It was either 5-speeds, 21, or 24 and the 24 was a little cheaper.

The only time I start in a higher gear is if I have to stop suddenly and don't have time to shift, and even then I try to shift by lifting up the rear wheel and pushing down on the pedal. However, I rarely use the major gear shift on the pedal and leave it in the highest gear.

I don't want this to sound like an insult because I really think this a serious reason for concern--if you've been cycling for a while and the most you can ride without total exhaustion is 3.5 miles of what does not sound like strenuous riding, I think cramping may be the least of your problems. I would think that's way beyond "out of shape" for a 30 year old--that sounds debilitated. I don't know if you're very heavy (which could explain this) or if something else is going on, but if you've described this to your doctor and all they're telling you is "more stretching", I really think you need a new doctor. Having been morbidly obese in the past, I can say that cycling at very high weight is an entirely different experience, and I just stopped doing it UNTIL I lost a bunch of weight, but if you're not morbidly obese and you're getting this tired this fast, I'd be very concerned about the possibility of a lot of other problems that probably need to be ruled out.

I'm not a doctor, but I've had good ones and bad ones, so take my advice for what it's worth.
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Old 05-24-21, 07:25 AM
  #46  
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forget the gears. choose a speed you can pedal comfortably with and don't shift. Don't complicate it, just pedal
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Old 05-27-21, 06:25 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I don't want this to sound like an insult because I really think this a serious reason for concern--if you've been cycling for a while and the most you can ride without total exhaustion is 3.5 miles of what does not sound like strenuous riding, I think cramping may be the least of your problems. I would think that's way beyond "out of shape" for a 30 year old--that sounds debilitated. I don't know if you're very heavy (which could explain this) or if something else is going on, but if you've described this to your doctor and all they're telling you is "more stretching", I really think you need a new doctor. Having been morbidly obese in the past, I can say that cycling at very high weight is an entirely different experience, and I just stopped doing it UNTIL I lost a bunch of weight, but if you're not morbidly obese and you're getting this tired this fast, I'd be very concerned about the possibility of a lot of other problems that probably need to be ruled out.

I'm not a doctor, but I've had good ones and bad ones, so take my advice for what it's worth.
I build up to 4-5 miles over the course of a summer, then I seem to revert back during the winter when I have my bike in the attic from Thanksgiving until the spring (when varies depending on the weather, sometimes early March, sometimes late April. More rarely early May if we have a cold March and rainy weekends in April).
Also I'm 42, not 30. I only noticed the cramping when I got to age 31 or 32. I took the bike out, rode 1.25 miles to the library (that is almost always the first place I go on the bike in the spring, not much of a ride but a good test. Occasionally it's the Westgate Shopping Center (aka Westgate Park & Shop) 3 blocks away) and picked up a book or movie (I can't recall, and it doesn't matter), then rode back. The next day my calves and thighs HURT. It's been like that ever since if I fail to stretch.
Before I turned 30, I never needed to bother stretching before using the bike. I'd just grab my helmet and water bottles (I don't usually bother with the water bottles going to the library (1.25 miles) or Jewel (about 1 mile) unless it's over 74 degrees outside, and then I only take the small one "just in case"), hop on, and go.

TL;DR? I make progress if the summer is mild enough to ride regularly, but then I backslide over the winter because I can't seem to get enough exercise or the right kind.
I think it's the latter, as I discovered that I can't run very far at all even though I can bike for miles. Different muscles are apparently used, and standing on your feet does not help with running either. I had an incident back in 2016 where I was working a part-time survival job at Sam's Club's electronics department and was almost late for work. Employees had to park in the far spaces, denoted by the white lines instead of yellow, and I ran from there to the back room and was completely out of breath.
Later that same year I had a weekday off on Garbage Day and was doing some last-minute yardwork and had one more yard waste bag when the garbage truck was spotted working the other side of the street. I had to get an extra sticker and ran for the hardware store 3 blocks away. I got the sticker and ran back just as the truck passed my house, but they let me give them the sticker and took the bag. I was completely out of breath and had cramps the next day.
ALMOST late for work, and I ran from the
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Old 05-27-21, 06:51 PM
  #48  
GhostRider62
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Hard to understand how stretching or using little foam things would help here.

I have never stretched or used foam rollers in my 64 years and usually do over 10,000 miles per year. Stretching does nothing for me.

Maybe stretching every 10 minutes is the problem?
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Old 05-27-21, 08:23 PM
  #49  
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The study on stretching listed earlier is misleading when it says that stretching has no benefits. In the article, it cited the girls soccer team study, which found that 'warmups" prevent injuries..and that those warmups didn't specifically include stretching. Well guess what, when you're warming up.. you are effectively stretching your muscles.
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Old 05-27-21, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
The study on stretching listed earlier is misleading when it says that stretching has no benefits. In the article, it cited the girls soccer team study, which found that 'warmups" prevent injuries..and that those warmups didn't specifically include stretching. Well guess what, when you're warming up.. you are effectively stretching your muscles.

This has been studied to death, and stretching does not warm up your muscles. The two things have virtually nothing to do with each other. People looking for scientific reasons to stretch always end up grasping for straws like you just did.

Warming up is simply doing a milder version of the activity you're about to engage in or something very similar. Stretching is a special activity totally unlike the main activity of the workout, unless your workouts are yoga. All of the systematic studies of pre-workout stretching indicate that it adversely affects performance slightly and makes people slightly more prone to injury. "It's probably not that bad for you" is about as good as the case gets for stretching.

Some of us spent decades having gym instructors and the like forcing us to stretch even though it hurt and did nothing good for us. I'm just not very flexible (that's almost entirely genetic and really has next to nothing to do with bicycle performance), so making me stretch is a bit of a mini-torture. Consequently, I have no tolerance for people trying to tout benefits it doesn't bestow, and who insist that other people should do it.
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