GameHasNoName

Hi!

I'm trying to set my position relatively to the bottom bracket correctly (updating the seat height accordingly), but I'm facing a problem. When I move my saddle far back to unload my arms and not sliding forward I would feel mostly ok on the trainer. On the road I would feel good only when I do ride with minimal effort, like in zone 1, but I can ride like that all day without discomfort. When I put some effort it doesn't feel good in the lower back and legs, particularly I feel some strain in the "quadriceps tendon area". I don't have injuries, but also I don't race. By moving saddle forward small amount it's a bit easier to pedal, but I can instantly feel increased pressure on my hands and periodically sliding forward.

The question: what would you try to adjust in the first place if you would be me? I don't think it's because of the stem, because I've tried 90 and 110 with the same success where shorter stem felt really "short". Saddle height was set initially by heel method and adjusted by feel afterwards. I'm thinking it may be the saddle that cause problem, but unsure. The saddle is specialized romin evo, I can't really blame it for comfort, the only thing I'm afraid of is the shape (ramp) may cause sliding forward (and therefore increasing hand pressure) in my optimal position relatively to the bottom bracket.

I know it may be better to get a professional bike fit but it's just not possible for me yet and I want to ride So, any your advice would be awesome.

If that is the wrong sub-forum to ask, please, move this post accordingly.

Thank you in advance for your time and effort.

philbob57

What do you mean by, 'Saddle height was set initially by heel method and adjusted by feel afterwards'? How did you set seat height? Did you try setting it by the common heuristics - LeMond's, 109% of pubic bone height, pedaling backwards with heels on pedals and not rocking your hips? What were the results of the heuristics?

My imagination tells me my lower back will hurt if my seat height were too high.

GameHasNoName

I've tried setting seat height using LeMond's method, but I think I somehow messed up with measuring and ended with seat height about 1cm higher than using "pedaling backwards with heels on pedals and not rocking your hips", after this I've tested the seat height by feel while riding uphill looking for pedaling being smooth on the down-stroke (not like on step machine). I'm not 100% sure if seat height is correct, please, let me know if there are other methods to check whether my seat height is correct and if I miss something.

One thing I forgot to mention, saddle also feels firm if I put some pedaling effort and it feels good otherwise even on long ride. Can it be saddle is too far back AND too low?

philbob57

I'd first get my pubic bone height measurement as close to right as possible. The web has many examples of measuring, but the first 3 that DuckDuckGo presented aren't all that good. I'd search on 'measure pubic bone height book' without quotes - I recommend a method that uses a book jammed against one's crotch.

What's the relationship between seat height and handlebar height?

How's your flexibility? Your core strength? Your flexibility? How many miles have you ridden?

GameHasNoName

thanks, I will check it out

it's about 1 cm,

I can touch floor with my fingers without a strain in the back (while being relaxed), but I feel tightness in the back of my knees (I'm assuming this is related to sitting position most of the time off the bike). Abdominal muscles might be weak (I did nothing to strengthen them up) and I was doing hyper extension exercises prior to the problem with the bike setup. I've skipped almost whole previous year and in this year I did about 1000km most of the time 50-60km rides to test position, two 120km and one 300km rides not including the trainer. With shorter stem my elbows tend to "bend and stick out to the sides", with longer stem it seems fine (elbows are slightly bend and does not stick out). I ride most of the time on the hoods. It does not feels like it's a huge pain in the lower back. It disappears when I straighten the back while standing on the pedals close to the handlebars for a short period of time or off the bike.

VicBC_Biker

A very small change in saddle angle (a few degrees either way from level) can make a big change in that 'sliding forward' feeling.
Take the wrench you need with you and go for a ride and make small adjustments at the roadside, unless you can put the bike on rollers or a trainer stand.
I find that I need to be warmed up and pedalling for 5-10 minutes to get a true 'feel' for how the saddle is working.

GameHasNoName

thanks for suggestion, I've got trainer stand, do you think it would be better to use it than making adjustments while riding? I'm asking because sometimes it feels not very good on trainer, but on the road it's fine. Unsure if it's related to my riding style, on small rides I move out of the saddle and the road is constantly small uphills and downhills. On the trainer I'm always in a static position.

VicBC_Biker

If it's safe and easy to stop by the roadside to make small adjustments, that would be my choice.

PeteHski

Depending on your pedals and shoes, the Lemond method can often put you too high on a modern bike. Some people use the Lemond -3 mm method to compensate for lower profile pedals/shoes. But that can be still too high if you don’t happen to have Lemond’s flexibility.

I think the heel method is probably a better starting point because it effectively takes account of your pedal/shoe profile and your own flexibility. That method puts me about 5 mm lower than the Lemond -3 calculation and feels pretty good on the bike.

If in doubt I would tend to go on the low side as various studies have shown that having your seat lower than optimum causes less issues than having it even just a bit too high.

Moisture

Have you tried adjusting the saddle tilt angle?

Maybe try a saddle that angles upward and stops you from sliding forward?

Youre sure that a stem size other than what you've already tried wouldn't help?

the main thing you should pay attention to would be which part of your foot you tend to pedal with and where exactly your tend to place them. Where they naturally fall will not always be the optimal spot..

GameHasNoName

The thing with saddle angle is it's not so simple for me to find level position for specialized romin evo. The saddle is currently level if you measure it from both ends. For romin evo it is recommended to level the middle third of the saddle, but I can't really find this middle third I'm just was not sure if it's a okay for saddle to be angled slightly nose up, but I will test it now.

Unfortunately I got cold and haven't tried anything yet, but I'm going to check saddle height and saddle angle.

Not 100% sure, but my point is shorter than optimal stem (90mm) should positively affect at least my lower back, but it doesn't seems so and on the other hand with 110mm stem I've got same issues, except my arms seems to be in more natural position and it feels I can maintain my position easier (like I'm resting on a bike with less effort). May be with 110mm stem I'm stretched a little too much and 100mm would be ideal, do you think I should try 100mm stem or another?

I'm used to pedal with "default" cleat position, but at this time I've got saddle too high, after that I've tried to move cleats backwards and it did not feel like I can put much power, but I could spin a little easier. Do you think I should try to change cleat position? may be if nothing helps?

Moisture

90mm shouldn't necessarily be less than optimal, it depends mostly on your proportions and riding style. You can go a bit longer or shorter than 100mm without any problems. If you think that 100mm will be the sweet spot for you, then by all means give it a try. But 10mm won't make such a drastic difference.

As for how you position your cleats over the pedal, absolutely yes. This is always going to be the first step with any good frame fit. Ideally you want the ball of your foot to be right over the pedal spindle, but depending on your frames geomtery this may not be the "sweet spot" as long as you can get yourself into a comfortable pedaling position without moving your foot way too far forward or backward, that's okay.

Think of foot position from the perspective of how to minimize stress on your joints; particularly your knees and joints first and foremost, and then worry about your spin or power output. For example, I naturally tend to pedal flat footed like I was saying in my other post, it seemed to feel okay. One day I was pedalling up a mild climb facing a quite a lot of wind and was noticing a lot of pain in my right knee. This is something which I was slowly developing over time from pedalling too hard/aggressively. Shifting my feet just a little bit backward to align the ball of my foot with the middle of the pedal (the spindle) immediately and completely stopped the knee pain, at least for the duration of that ride.

Make sure you test out different foot positions, with and without your cleats, then if you find that you've made a change you like, try to adjust your saddle fore/aft position one more time, and then, decide on what stem length you think will work best for you.

GameHasNoName

sorry, what do you mean by "without your cleats", do you mean pedaling not clipped in? or using non clipless pedals

Moisture

Without the clips or cleats, if that gives you the potential for more foot positions. Just to be able to experiment more.

philbob57

Yikes! I forgot! How are you reaching forward? Some people bend their backs. If that is what you're doing, try rolling forward from your hips without changing the alignment of the vertebrae.

Yeah, but that means not putting the ball of one's foot over the spindle. I think the way to get power out of hips/knees/legs with the least strain should (speaking from the POV of geometry) be to put one's heels on the pedals. Otherwise, the ankles get into the mix and can bend in a way that saps power. Personally, I don't find pedaling from my heels very comfortable, but aligning my mid-foot with the spindle usually works great.

I recommend trying out the mid-foot pedaling technique - you might like it a lot.

GameHasNoName

can't test ride it on a bike yet, but I've tried reaching the floor and not arching my spine much with no success (if I understand you correctly) so I guess it may be the cause

thanks, I will try it for sure

Moisture

ankle flexion or toe flexion can get your calves involved which should contribute to improved power transfer.

Ever since I adjusted my saddle to comfortably pedal with the ball of my foot, I havent looked back.

The ideal spot to be pedalling with your foot varies according to frame geomemtry and your own body proportions.

philbob57

Have you tried pedaling with your heel? I have, and I can't reliably keep my heel in contact with the pedal. It felt very weird, besides, though that might be a matter of use and (un)familiarity. But the theory seems sound.

Have you tried out mid-foot pedaling, M? What shoes and pedals, and for how long? I feel more stress in my knees when I pedal on the balls of my feet than on the mid-foot, and I do adjust the height, although now I've got seat height pretty much in between optimum for multiple foot position - but I'm not recommending that. I'm just recommending considering (trying out) mid-foot pedaling to minimize stress on leg joints.

GameHasNoName

Thanks for all the advises in this thread, it helped me a lot (actually I've applied all of them).

I've moved cleats backwards about half-centimeter and also I moved saddle forward and adjusted height after some rides. It feels good, I'm not sure if it's mid-foot or not in my case, because I've got 43 EU size SPD shoes and it doesn't feel like mid-foot. I think that was the solution: it's not only feels easier on my knees, but also it seems easier to pull up and smoother pedaling overall with this setup. Great! Thanks.

The only thing is wrong now - one my feet rotates a bit on the down stroke, I can't feel it, but I can hear it creaking. I've tried lowering saddle with no success. I've aligned the saddle with the ruler looking from the top, the way it points to the center of the handlebars (so the way I sit on the saddle should not be the cause). Can it be that I'm sitting too forward and one of my feet rotates a bit accommodate this? What do you think?

DavidHawkins

My imagination tells me my lower back will hurt if my seat height were too high.

GameHasNoName

thanks, lower back is fine now, if you have any advice regarding my latest post, please, let me know

Moisture

I'm not sure i understand what you mean by foot rotation. Are you referring to up/down ankle flexion?

If thats what you mean, maybe try to keep your calves contracted by pointing your toes down as you pedal. The clip ins are very helpful with getting your calves involved and ultimately gaining better power and a smoother spin.

Moisture

Ideally you shouldn't be pedalling all the way towards your heel or up against your toes either. Again; depends on the geometry of your bike.

Your theory with mid foot pedalling reducing stress on the tendons make sense. But me, like other cyclists, tend to deal with some knee pain when being hard on the cranks. I've never had any issues with the tendons or ligaments in my ankle. So reducing stress to the knee area should be a primary focus.

I'm not saying that the ball of foot method will work for everyone, but as a general starting point, this is anatomically where your feet *should* be placed over the pedal spindle.

Moisture

GameHasNoName

two more very important bits i forget to mention -

1. Q-factor. This is how wide (or narrow) your crank arms sit outside of the bottom bracket. Ideally the closer they sit inwards on both sides, the better. Being too wide outwards can place undue stress on the knees and obviously reduce performance.

2. Get on your bike without clipping in and start pedalling. Where do you naturally feel like placing your feet? Ideally, your feet should be nice and close towards the inside of the pedal spindle and most importantly, focus on opening up your hips (as well as knees externally) but keeping your toes pointed outward. If your clip ins stop you from doing this, it can be a bit of an issue.

On my crankset for example, the arms angle outward toward the pedal area to purposely give your heel some space to be pointed inward as you pedal. Pay close attention to the way your knees, hips, angles are aligned. Ideally you want everything to be pointed straight, but if you have to compensate with some external rotation to achieve this, better than leaving things internally rotated.

GameHasNoName

I mean, it's like feet goes toes in a little bit at the bottom of the down stroke and makes creaking noise (like cleat is twisting against pedal body). One thing for sure, more muscles are involved in my current setup, I can feel it after the ride.