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Online bikepedia for older bikes?

Old 04-21-22, 03:28 PM
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schwim
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Online bikepedia for older bikes?

Hello there!

I'm a longtime rider but relatively new to having an interest in older bikes. When I say older, I don't mean vintage turn of the 20th century bikes, in my case, I mean 70's-80's bikes. I find some on local marketplace and I don't know enough about them to tell if they're a quality bike or just a 40 year old low quality bike that nobody would like to ride.

I often visit bikepedia.com but their db for most brands only seem to go back to 1993 and my interests precede that. Is there a database available online for older bikes that is a reliable tool for gauging a bike's general quality and desirability or will I have to bother you for each bike I find? (insert smilie here)

Any suggestions on some go-to links to keep in my bookmarks for finding out more on newfound bikes would be most appreciated, most notably, sources to help me determine whether an asking price is fair. Thanks for your time!
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Old 04-21-22, 03:35 PM
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There’s a C&V sub forum for valuations: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...th-appraisals/

You can post individual bikes there or get a sense of trends from similar bikes (e.g., mid-1980s Japanese frames with mid-range components). Lots of variation depending on your location, and also keep in mind that you’re getting advice from random strangers on the Internet.
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Old 04-21-22, 03:55 PM
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My browser doesn't seem to trust bikepedia anymore, but I did like using it when it worked.
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Old 04-21-22, 04:26 PM
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Is there a database available online for older bikes that is a reliable tool for gauging a bike's general quality and desirability or will I have to bother you for each bike I find?
...speaking generally, the way you judge a 70's or 80's bicycle is by looking at the level of the components that are on it (assuming they are originals), and by looking at the construction details and materials used to make the frame. Thus you hear people in the C+V going on endlessly about Reynolds 531, Columbus SX, double butted tube sets, Campagnolo dropouts, and some other indicators of what might have been a particular maker's top of the line bicycle.

These are not always foolproof, and you'll miss some really nice riding bicycles by using it as your exclusive benchmark. But it works most of the time. There's no real substitute for personal experience, and trying things out to discover what your personal preferences are.

You can get a pretty good idea of the level of a derailleur in the maker's lineup by referencing it on Disraeli Gears, a valuable resource.

Or, iff you find a particular bicycle you think is interesting and are considering acquiring, you can do a Google image search for it, and go through the images until you find one that links back to a thread on BIkeforums, or one of the other sites like Classic Lightweights that gives more detailed analysis and history. But a lot of their listings are pre-70's.
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Old 04-21-22, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by schwim
will I have to bother you for each bike I find?
What works really well is to use bikeforums in an advanced search on one-word thread title and by subforum (c&v). You can limit the results to threads with a certain number of replies.
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Old 04-21-22, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Clang
My browser doesn't seem to trust bikepedia anymore, but I did like using it when it worked.
The browsers have gotten a bit alarmist with the notifications. In reality, they've allowed their SSL cert to expire. They're not trying to do anything malicious, they're just lackadaisical in their updating of their cert. It still encrypts the connection, however.
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Old 04-22-22, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by schwim
In reality, they've allowed their SSL cert to expire.
Veering a bit off-topic...

As someone who only recently created a TLS/SSL certificate for the first time (using Let's Encrypt), I was mildly surprised to find the certificate expires every 90 days. When perusing their FAQ, I noticed a question of short expiration times. Their response was that it's typical, and not specific to their (free) service. It appears website admins need to keep on top of this.
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Old 04-22-22, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by schwim
Any suggestions on some go-to links to keep in my bookmarks for finding out more on newfound bikes would be most appreciated
Study catalogs. Often there'll be gaps where the archivist didn't scan the whole thing (they might have only been interested in road bikes and not mountain bikes, kid's bikes, etc). Sometimes there'll be gaps in years. The real use is getting accustomed to how bikes change in spec and appearance as they go from entry level to high-end. Looking at catalogs from many years can teach you how product lines evolve through time. Even if you get familiar with one brand that's prevalent in your area, you'll be able to apply what you've learned to a complete mystery bike.

This is by no means a comprehensive list, just something that covers the bulk of what you'll see for sale in the US.

Bridgestone: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/index.html
Cannondale: https://vintagecannondale.com/catalog/
Centurion: Centurion Catalogs
Fuji: https://classicfuji.posthaven.com/archive
Miyata: https://www.ragandbone.ca/Miyata/miyata_selector.html
Motobecane: https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/Motobecane/
Peugeot: Peugeot Brochures - USA
Raleigh: https://sheldonbrown.com/retroraleighs/index.html
Schwinn 1971-1980: https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCa...inn_1971_1980/
Schwinn 1981-1990: https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCa...990/index.html
Specialized: https://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2...ve/Catalogues/
Trek: Vintage Trek Bicycle Catalogs and Bike Brochures, Fisher, Klein LeMond
Trek model by year and colors (ctrl+f for the model number is great quick ref): Trek Bike Models by Year and Color
Univega: https://univegacatalogs.wordpress.com/
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Old 04-22-22, 06:46 AM
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In addition to the advice above, the general rule for older production stuff is how they were outfitted. We're talking major shop-level manufacturers here, not BSOs from Western Auto and Sears (both still alive and strong at the time). The basic level bikes had high-tensile frames and forks with steel components. As quality and price improved you would find a QR front wheel, then alloy rims, then a QR rear wheel, then an alloy crankset, etc. Once they had all alloy components they then improved the frame tubing.

Best practice for you would be to go to the bike racks at a nearby college and look at all the bikes parked there. A lot of college bikes came out of mom and dad's basement or garage. Pretty soon you'll be able to tell from across the street if a bike is worth getting a closer look at.
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Old 04-22-22, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by schwim
Is there a database available online for older bikes that is a reliable tool for gauging a bike's general quality and desirability or will I have to bother you for each bike I find? (insert smilie here)
An excellent drive side pic (maybe a few more to show condition or flaws) and a short blurb about the components posted here will result in quick, accurate assessments but if you want market value, you have to post in the aforementioned appraisals thread. Otherwise every Tom, Dick and Flipper will be swarming the C&V thread.
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Old 04-22-22, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by thumpism
Best practice for you would be to go to the bike racks at a nearby college and look at all the bikes parked there. A lot of college bikes came out of mom and dad's basement or garage. Pretty soon you'll be able to tell from across the street if a bike is worth getting a closer look at.
That probably depends on the campus and the location. At my university in a city that often has lots of old bikes around (Boston), it's pretty rare to see a C&V bike parked at the racks. Mostly it's BSOs and lots of fairly brand new, low-end machines sold by some of the bigger LBSs in the area.
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Old 04-22-22, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro
As someone who only recently created a TLS/SSL certificate for the first time (using Let's Encrypt), I was mildly surprised to find the certificate expires every 90 days. When perusing their FAQ, I noticed a question of short expiration times. Their response was that it's typical, and not specific to their (free) service. It appears website admins need to keep on top of this.
The primary reason the LE certs only last 90 days is because of their ease of acquisition and low hurdle of ownership. Once a cert is issued, there's no way to unring the bell so if someone is using the cert on a malicious site, that domain can be blacklisted when they try to renew the cert. With traditional SSL purchasing, it cost you quite a bit of money to purchase and the vetting process was more in depth so it was expected that legitimate sites would be the primary recipients of those.

Although 90 days is a short enough time period to make renewal a hassle, many hosts offer auto-renewal of these and for those that don't, there's scripts you can run on a server via cron at a set schedule to perform the update of the cert if your host supports it.
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Old 04-22-22, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by clubman
....but if you want market value, you have to post in the aforementioned appraisals thread. Otherwise every Tom, Dick and Flipper will be swarming the C&V thread.
For the most part, I'm only concerned about whether a bike I'm looking to buy is being sold at a fair price to me. I don't have an exit strategy for them, I know I don't plan to just keep owning more bikes until I reach capacity but if I know I paid a fair price for it, I have a good idea of what I could sell the bike for after being cleaned up and tuned.
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Old 04-22-22, 07:42 AM
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Here's an example of what I often find. I know I'm not in the C&V category so I'm not turning this into a value thread, this is just an example. Aside from posting in that category and having someone else tell you it's value, if you found this bike for sale(and pretend you don't already know by looking at it), how would you go about learning more about the bike, it's quality and whether the asking price(in this case, $200) is fair? Sorry for no driveline pic, I have asked for one but she's not responded yet.

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Old 04-22-22, 07:51 AM
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This is very helpful, thank you for that. I've saved 20 or so links from my searching as well. My first thought when looking at my bookmarks for this purpose is that I should build a bike database that consolidates all of this info
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Old 04-22-22, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by schwim
Here's an example of what I often find. I know I'm not in the C&V category so I'm not turning this into a value thread, this is just an example. Aside from posting in that category and having someone else tell you it's value, if you found this bike for sale(and pretend you don't already know by looking at it), how would you go about learning more about the bike, it's quality and whether the asking price(in this case, $200) is fair? Sorry for no driveline pic, I have asked for one but she's not responded yet.

The first things that catch my eye are the stem shifters and the "safety" brake levers, both indicative of a lower-end model. I like that it's lugged, and those head lugs are kinda cool, and I like that it looks to have alloy rims though they are likely 27" and decent tires in that size are somewhat hard to come by (though I also notice that the front brake pads, at least, are at the top of the slots, so this likely could be fitted with 700c wheels without changing the brake calipers). I also see an alloy crankset, which is a plus and quick-release front and rear hubs, which is better than bolt on. It would come down to (1) does it fit (if you were buying it to ride and not simply re-sell? (2) what's the asking price?
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Old 04-22-22, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
(1) does it fit (if you were buying it to ride and not simply re-sell? (2) what's the asking price?
Thanks very much for the detailed info and help!

I'm waiting on her to get back to me on frame size and the asking price is $200.
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Old 04-22-22, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by schwim
Here's an example of what I often find. I know I'm not in the C&V category so I'm not turning this into a value thread, this is just an example. Aside from posting in that category and having someone else tell you it's value, if you found this bike for sale(and pretend you don't already know by looking at it), how would you go about learning more about the bike, it's quality and whether the asking price(in this case, $200) is fair? Sorry for no driveline pic, I have asked for one but she's not responded yet.

...so using the method of image searching and back linking from that, here is an example:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Schwinn+Su...ages&ia=images

leads to this image (on a page of images) :


If you follow the link given to the page where it appears on Bike forums, you get to this thread in the C+V appraisals forum:

1978 Schwinn Super Le Tour 12.2

You can do that with any image on the page, I just picked that one because it led to an appraisal and a quoted sale price of $300. But that one was fully rehabilitated, so anything you need to do to the bicycle in question that will cost money should be deducted in your mental equation for value.

IIRC all the "12.2" designated bicycles sold by Schwinn at the time were Japanese products, probably made by Giant or if one of the better ones, Panasonic. I could be mistaken. I'm just going off the top of my head. The "12.2" was a reference to weight of the frame. The Voyageur 12.2 also marketed by Schwinn is a wonderful bicycle, in terms of a geometry and riding quality. But the early ones were sole with alloy rims with little or no bead hook, so they need a wheel rim upgrade to reach full potential using modern higher pressure tyres.
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Old 04-22-22, 12:29 PM
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Always keep in mind that there is much more to factor in than just the initial purchase price of the bike. If I were looking at purchasing this example, I’d note that it has has rusty cables, an old chain, old tires, a terrible saddle, somebody’s old used bar tape. All of this needs to be replaced and certainly it will need to have new bearings with fresh grease in the bottom bracket, pedals, headset, and hubs. I also add in the cost of new tubes, rim strips, and often times some new spokes. If you have all of this stuff on hand and know how to do the work, great, if not, then of the cost of that bike is considerably more than $200.

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Old 04-22-22, 12:31 PM
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I don't know why, but I usually like to let google find information for me rather than use a forum's built-in search function. For example I would enter "schwinn super le tour site:bikeforums.net" into a google search without the quotes. It will bring up all the discussions of that bike here. And as previously stated, the opinions of random people on the internet will be all over the place. Some people will think the $200 asking price is fair while others will think it is overpriced.

I realize this doesn't address the OP's original question, but it is a good way to find out more about a bike from the forums.
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Old 04-22-22, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by schwim
if you found this bike for sale(and pretend you don't already know by looking at it), how would you go about learning more about the bike, it's quality and whether the asking price(in this case, $200) is fair?
This is interesting to me. First step: let's catalog dive! Since I had just researched the Voyageur 11.8, I thought based on that model naming convention, that this might be early 80's, but I had to keep going backwards in time before finding that the Super Le Tour 12.2 model appears last in 1978. The colors listed are Full Chrome, Black, Scarlet, and Silver mist, so we need to go back further.

1977 is listed in Scarlet, Full chrome, Silver Mist, and Sky Blue. This year is the first possibility. Note the words "Schwinn approved" means the bike was made in Japan, and that 12.2 refers to the bike's weight in kilograms, so just shy of 27 pounds.


1976 lists the colors as Flamboyant Red, Silver Mist, and Sky Blue: another possible year.


If we go back to 1975, then we've gone too far. It goes from the Le Tour to the Sports Tourer with no model in between. So, we've narrowed down the model years to two based on model name and color availability: '76 & '77. Now between those, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of differences both with spec (besides being offered in 19" in '77 (this is a 21," so the point is moot)) and graphics, so there's no way of telling what year the one for sale is without analyzing the serial number. But that doesn't really matter if both years are basically identical. As has been noted by nlerner, the bike for sale has safety levers and stem shifters, which do suggest that it's lower-end. Yet these features don't show up in the catalog! Bikes are modular things, so surely those modifications could have been done at a later date. But I'm 99% sure that these mods were done by the Schwinn shop at the request of the customer before it ever rolled out of the store. New riders don't feel confident reaching for downtube shifters. And they don't like the idea of not being able to brake when they ride on the flats of the bars. These substitutions and additions were common back in the day. Such a rider is also NOT going to want their feet strapped into the pedals, so the toe clips pictured in the catalog are also missing.

The reason I'm sure that these modifications were made by the shop is that this bike has only been very lightly ridden. The frame is in good shape with no rust and only possible handful of scratches from storage. The spoke protector (dork disc) is there. The reflectors are all there. There's minimal rust on the hardware. I can only really see some on the stem bolt by the handlebars, some light surface rust on the front wheel QR lever, and chain. The picture's from the wrong side to get a complete view of the drivetrain, but my guess is that everything's bone stock.



Aside from mods that made this scary skinny-tired road bike more approachable to the initial buyer many decades ago, what else can we figure out by looking at the sole ad pic? I like the chromed fork crown and socks near the dropout. There's hardly any braze-ons for water bottles, racks, etc. That's expected on a 70's bike, but it's not what I'm used to and it's not always convenient. The "guts" style seatpost where there's a band, 4 washers that hold the rails, 2 nuts, and one binder bolt: today that's indicative of low quality, but it's also present on the nicer Superior for both those years, so I have to chalk it up to the era as well. It's dusty. The seller didn't clean it up for the ad pic. They didn't do anything special to it. There's a dead leaf in the freewheel. It's photographed inside an ugly trailer, next to another blue bike, lawn furniture, plastic shelving, and a potted plant. The photo is over-exposed since this blue will appear darker in person. The photo is taken from the non-drive side, propped up by the seller's hand. This is not good presentation. The seller is not a bike guy. Maybe they're cleaning out a storage locker, or a dead relative's garage.

Hopefully I've established that this bike is in good, original condition (as it rolled off the sales floor, not strict catalog spec) which is more the result of proper indoor storage and low-miles than the labor in parts, restoration knowledge, and care of the seller. One man's "good, original condition" is another man's "no mainainence done for 45 years." This means old, possibly crusty tires, inner tubes, cables, chain, gummy grease in the bearings, etc. I think this bike will clean up very nice based on this pic, but it will still need cleaning up. Some things you can't tell from this pic: if the wheels are true, if the tires are flat from no air, or if the tubes are punctured, if the stem is seized in the steerer tube, and if the seatpost is stuck in the seat tube. When you go to buy a bike BRING A PUMP, and BRING TOOLS. If you ask the seller, they won't know, so verify. Stuck parts hurt value because sometimes the solution is a simple penetrating oil soak overnight...until it's not. There are many threads here with much wailing and much gnashing of teeth, lots of destroyed paint from blowtorches, cut fingers from trying to hold hacksaw blades, and bent frames from folks who clamped seats in a vise and tried to spin the bike trying to get the demon-sent post to finally spin free. Amusingly, the first bike I bought off Craigslist was an '88 Schwinn Le Tour with a stuck seatpost (of deeply-inserted mtb length (*cough cough* that's still stuck to this day)).

I'm ever-so-slowly getting to value. The seller did not add value. They didn't do anything to it besides take an awkward photo from the wrong side. It's in good shape but it needs work and consumables for it to reach its potential. Let's compare it to this listing in Detroit:

Schwinn Super LeTour 12.2 road bike - $225 (Royal Oak)


https://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/b...468667508.html



This is ready-to-ride condition. They've washed, polished, changed the tires, tape, seat, cables, etc. At a glance it's really nice aside from a chunk of missing paint below the "ou" on the top tube which could be rubbing from a car's truck rack. And they only want $25 more than the seller of the one in question! That's a lot of parts and labor for the money. Sadly, lacking teleportation, we're confined to our local markets where price is pushed and pulled by the tides of supply and demand. What else can you get for $200 near you? A good price is based on comparables. Are we back to square one where we have to do all this analysis on multiple other listings to get a picture of the market? But there's pages and pages of local listings! And they get added to all the time! The answer is: kinda. Luckily the more practice your eyes gets, the quicker you can scan through all the drifts of cruddy kid's bikes, department store garbage, and dreaming flippers to spot interesting bikes in your size, price range, bike type, initial quality, preferred current condition, and acceptable location.

Another way to think about value is to think about your intended use. If you want this bike to tour, commute, or get groceries, then it'd be better to look for an 80's touring bike with braze-ons for racks and bottles. If you want a go-fast bike, then look for something without these newbie-friendly mods and pick a lighter racer. If you know you can't do any of the work, and are worried about high shop labor costs, pick something that's already been visibly overhauled. My point is to start with a bike that's closest to your intended use as possible so you're not surprised by the adding costs of modifications and upgrades later. Even if you're just like: "I want a sport touring bike to ride around on," a road bike from the mid to late 80's should get you a lighter, full butted chrome-moly frame, 2 water bottle bosses, 700c wheels with more tire options, etc.

Subjectively, I just think these bikes are pretty. There's chrome bits to catch the sun and Schwinn's candy paint is nicer in person than it is in photographs. I dig the graphics and I think this will clean up well. I think we'd all like to think the emotional component to purchasing can be overridden by logic and objectivity, but we'd be wrong! For one, we'd all have fewer bikes.

So I think the lightly-ridden condition is a big plus, I like the paint color, but I'd want to undo the newbie mods, I know there'd be an investment of time and money to get it truly rideable, I think the seller should be docked for poor presentation, and being spoiled by later bikes, I'm not thrilled that the bike only has 2 chrome-moly frame tubes and no braze-ons. Now that we have most of our ingredients in the blender, what do we get when we hit the button? I think it's overpriced. I'm thinking $120 - $140 is fair if the seatpost and stem move. If the seller just listed it, they might not want to come down. It's easier to haggle in person than over email or texts. Bikes that are overpriced will stay listed for days and weeks, meaning there's plenty of low-stress time to ask about it on the forum, and go back and forth with the seller asking for frame measurements and additional pics. But the better the deal, the less time there is to dink around! If this was a Paramount in this exact condition and price, there'd be forum members that would elbow you in the face to schedule a pickup time and put two hundred dollars in the seller's hands while you were still wondering if this was a 19" or 21" frame!

Good luck with this bike or your research into future bikes!
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Old 04-22-22, 04:45 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Pcampeau
Always keep in mind that there is much more to factor in than just the initial purchase price of the bike. If I were looking at purchasing this example, I’d note that it has has rusty cables, an old chain, old tires, a terrible saddle, somebody’s old used bar tape. All of this needs to be replaced and certainly it will need to have new bearings with fresh grease in the bottom bracket, pedals, headset, and hubs. I also add in the cost of new tubes, rim strips, and often times some new spokes. If you have all of this stuff on hand and know how to do the work, great, if not, then of the cost of that bike is considerably more than $200.
...I have an early Voyageur 12.2 here, that I bought for a hunnert bucks on CL. I only bought it for the frame and the components, and knew ahead of time I was probably gonna put another $150 into the wheels, $60 for some decent tyres, $10 for a KMC chain, and miscellaneous odds and ends, like cables, better housings, and bar tape were all on top of that.

I could probably sell it now for a hunnert bucks again.
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Old 04-22-22, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...so :
IIRC all the "12.2" designated bicycles sold by Schwinn at the time were Japanese products, probably made by Giant or if one of the better ones, Panasonic. I could be mistaken. I'm just going off the top of my head. The "12.2" was a reference to weight of the frame. The Voyageur 12.2 also marketed by Schwinn is a wonderful bicycle, in terms of a geometry and riding quality. But the early ones were sole with alloy rims with little or no bead hook, so they need a wheel rim upgrade to reach full potential using modern higher pressure tyres.
Yeah, I too was told by my old Schwinn shop boss, and it seems to be correct, is that the 12.2 referred to the (ideal) weight of the bicycle in kilograms. So, 12.2 kilograms is 26.9 lbs, which seems about right.

Last edited by uncle uncle; 04-22-22 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 04-24-22, 02:28 AM
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Great input. Thank you.
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Old 04-24-22, 07:38 PM
  #25  
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I skimmed this thread and didn't see it mentioned, so here you go:
My Ten Speeds
I think it is almost exactly what you're looking for. It was sold a while ago by the original owner, who was a prolific poster here in the past and still appears from time to time. I haven't reviewed the site lately so I can't vouch for its current state, but when I looked through it back in the day, it fit your request very well.
Hope that helps.
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