rubiksoval

So according to your non-math:

If a rider's position is unknown, then 10% of the unknown seat height = slam your saddle as far back as safety allows.

Yeah. Thanks for all of the insight. You're a bastion of useful information.

woodcraft

LoL

woodcraft

I do agree that saddle further back will tend to engage hamstrings more and so use more muscle groups,

potentially helping endurance over long rides, but I'd guess pretty much nobody slides further back on the saddle

when trying to keep up with a blistering group.

aceSSone

My suggestion was to move the saddle back as far as safely possible. Which gets them in the ball park.
If your saddle height is 70cm your setback is 7cm from the BB there's the 10% math. There are some variables, saddle length, saddle rail length, seat post setback. Two things happen when mfgs tilt seat tubes forward.
1. The BB is moved back. 2. The seat tube moves forward. Both nearly move the center about 12mm on a saddle height of 67cm.
Like I said earlier, my suggestion didn't have anything to do with FIST.
It was a suggestion. I don't know why you can't get over that.
Did you like my picture of Dan in the workshop? I think that was day 2 of the road bike session. I just bought that camera, I had to take it back, there was something wrong with the auto focus. I use that same fit bike the dude in blue is sitting on. That was back in 2012. At that time, FIST was one of the suggested schools that Trek recommended on a job application. I attended on my vacation from Lockheed Martin where I worked as an Aircraft Maintenance Support Engineer. I quit that job and started a bike shop. Turns out I suck at sales. I refused to sell bikes to people that wouldn't fit them. I bet if I was able to sell one of the big 4 I'd still be open today. People slobber all over those bikes. I hate their geometry on the small bikes though, maybe I should have just faked it. Oh well, I learned a lot. There are a zillion reasons why starting a bike shop is one of the hardest businesses to succeed in. I just didn't think honesty was one of them. It didn't help that the credit card service f'd up my service credentials and sent a months worth of sales to the wrong account.
It's all good though, I still get to ride my bikes. Peace.

aceSSone

According to the inventor and builder of the first TRI specific road bike, Quintana Roo, California 1989. TRI bikes are designed to save the running muscle for the run. Aerodynamics is a byproduct of that design. Meaning, some available muscle isn't used on purpose. So to me, logically, moving the saddle back allows one to use more muscle, equating to more power. There are always going to be trade offs. Experimenting with position to see what works best for rider and environment is always good.

HTupolev

I think you're making an inaccurate inference.

Dan Empfield's design was an attempt to address the needs of fitting with aerobars, which were already dominant in high-level triathlon at that time. Aerodynamics wasn't a "byproduct", it was an implicit requirement. His steep seat angle wasn't an attempt to fix a problem with drop-bar road fits, it was an attempt to fix a problem with how people were doing aggressive aerobar fits, one major issue being that the "shallow" seat positions were creating problematically scrunched hip angles*.
It's true that you can point to studies showing that Empfield's design resulted in improved performance on the run. But these same studies often show improvements on the bike as well. This 2002 article by Empfield is a fun read, for instance.

*The other major issue being that a more-forward fit demands a longer front-center, lest you feel like you're pitched forward off the front of the bike.

aceSSone

I agree with all the above, there are all kinds of innovations. The quote I used to back my point was directly from Dan during the 2012 workshop class. Unfortunately none of those tests in the referenced article were out doors over a hilly course. It wasn't really testing aerodynamics of the position just how the saddle position effects the ability to maintain a constant pace on a flat course. If youve ever ridden a tri bike in hills there is considerable much more effort to get up the hills, hence Tri cyclists hate hills. I did notice the improvement in the running brick by the position, which backs up my Dan quote and my position of moving the saddle back for more muscle/power. Might less oxygen used be attributed to less muscle used? The original poster was needing to improve on the hills. I stand by my suggestion.

guadzilla

JHFC.

Now i remember why i stopped reading Bikeforums all these years. People can just make their points and stop, but no, it always devolves into a ******g pissing contest where everyone has to get the last word in.

growlerdinky

Wrong.

tomato coupe

What's the famous Lemond quote?

"It never gets easier, you just get more wrong."

growlerdinky

During interviews in recent years LeMond acknowledged that much of what he was taught, believed and, in turn, taught to others was totally wrong. That includes frame design, crank length and other factors that go into the ideal fit and energy transfer, and being wrong all the time.

rubiksoval

The OP isn't riding a tri bike.

Go reread the OP and apply some context.

aceSSone

Nooooo kidding. I'm thinking you should go back and read a few posts. They discuss my position why I think moving the saddle back could help, using the example of why one is moved forward on a TRI bike. I wasn't the first one to write tri bike someone else used it as an example why to move the saddle forward.

aceSSone

Do they always include this guy? rubiksoval View Post

guadzilla

You mean "Incorrect".

(And I see what you did there....)

rubiksoval

Again, you know nothing about his position. Completely irrelevant. Your tangents about tri fit only exacerbate the irrelevancy.

rubiksoval

Only people who want to double and triple down on their nonsense.

You've got that down.

growlerdinky

you don't get more correct, you just get less incorrect,

WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!

woodcraft

I'm picturing you with a slammed aero position, straight back, saddle as far back as it will go, having not eaten for days, on a tri bike, and you still got dropped??