leg cramps
04-30-21, 06:05 AM
#51
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04-30-21, 07:22 AM
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04-30-21, 07:53 AM
#53
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It appears there are a lot of exotic imaginary cures out there I guess we just have to go with the one that our mind accepts so take your pick.
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04-30-21, 10:04 AM
#54
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People can't even agree on lack of which electrolyte is supposed to be the cause (magnesium was a popular candidate on BF for a while), but the whole electrolyte thing doesn't make any sense. A cramp is usually a very localized phenomenon, generally only happening to only one muscle at a time, and for a very limited duration. Electrolyte deficiency is a very serious system-wide health issue--if it were causing cramps, why would it be one muscle at a time, and for such a limited duration?
The reason there's so many "remedies" is very simple. Generally, no matter what you do, the cramp is going to go away in a matter of seconds or minutes, so it's ripe territory for the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
I'm with you, I generally only get cramps when I'm ramping up my activity level.
The reason there's so many "remedies" is very simple. Generally, no matter what you do, the cramp is going to go away in a matter of seconds or minutes, so it's ripe territory for the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
I'm with you, I generally only get cramps when I'm ramping up my activity level.
Pickle juice-mustard thing may indeed be real and mediated by activation of a brain stem reflex, which momentarily inhibits spinal motor output.
We now resume the steady stream of wrong info.
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04-30-21, 10:09 AM
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As pointed out above, it’s not electrolytes, nor is it water. The leading theory is overactivity of the 1a afferent system, which mediates the muscle stretch reflex, and concomitant down-regulation of the 1b, tendon organ, system, which opposes it, leading to unopposed reflex activity in response to activation of the stretch receptors. The origin of the problem is probably in the spinal cord and the only consistently identified associated conditions are fatigue and relative lack of conditioning. The reason passive stretching relieves cramps is that it stimulates the tendon organs.
Pickle juice-mustard thing may indeed be real and mediated by activation of a brain stem reflex, which momentarily inhibits spinal motor output.
We now resume the steady stream of wrong info.
Pickle juice-mustard thing may indeed be real and mediated by activation of a brain stem reflex, which momentarily inhibits spinal motor output.
We now resume the steady stream of wrong info.
I blame sunspots and Jewish space lasers.
The science on cramps is so uncertain because the occurrence is so sporadic and random that they really can't be observed under controlled conditions. There's a lot of evidence for non-correlations, however.
04-30-21, 10:21 AM
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As pointed out above, it’s not electrolytes, nor is it water. The leading theory is overactivity of the 1a afferent system, which mediates the muscle stretch reflex, and concomitant down-regulation of the 1b, tendon organ, system, which opposes it, leading to unopposed reflex activity in response to activation of the stretch receptors. The origin of the problem is probably in the spinal cord and the only consistently identified associated conditions are fatigue and relative lack of conditioning. The reason passive stretching relieves cramps is that it stimulates the tendon organs.
Pickle juice-mustard thing may indeed be real and mediated by activation of a brain stem reflex, which momentarily inhibits spinal motor output.
We now resume the steady stream of wrong info.
Pickle juice-mustard thing may indeed be real and mediated by activation of a brain stem reflex, which momentarily inhibits spinal motor output.
We now resume the steady stream of wrong info.
05-01-21, 06:44 AM
#57
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This folks, is real advice from a real doctor, so take note. Muscle fatigue and conditioning. At some performance point, genetics will play a part also. Busting your a$$ training to be the best you can be will help some, but it's not going to turn you from chump to champ. It's not going to happen unless you have the right genetics for that particular athletic endeavor.
What I like aboutMoAlpha post is that he's very clear that this is an as-yet unproven theory and that he's pointing to a couple of remedies that "might" work that have the decided advantage of being harmless. Like I said above, my concern with these threads comes in when people start advocating non-food electrolyte supplementation, which won't affect cramping and really could make a person sick, likely not seriously, but who needs diarrhea,etc.?
05-01-21, 07:06 AM
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I think conditioning well enough to avoid cramp vs. be a "champ" are likely entirely different matters. Do you know of any research that indicates there's a genetic propensity for getting cramps? Honest question, I've never come across anything like that.
What I like aboutMoAlpha post is that he's very clear that this is an as-yet unproven theory and that he's pointing to a couple of remedies that "might" work that have the decided advantage of being harmless. Like I said above, my concern with these threads comes in when people start advocating non-food electrolyte supplementation, which won't affect cramping and really could make a person sick, likely not seriously, but who needs diarrhea,etc.?
What I like aboutMoAlpha post is that he's very clear that this is an as-yet unproven theory and that he's pointing to a couple of remedies that "might" work that have the decided advantage of being harmless. Like I said above, my concern with these threads comes in when people start advocating non-food electrolyte supplementation, which won't affect cramping and really could make a person sick, likely not seriously, but who needs diarrhea,etc.?
Edit: After thinking about it, I guess there might be a genetic propensity for getting cramps. If you're trying to do a physical endeavor that those genes your parents passed on to you are not suited for, you're probably going to struggle.
https://blog.nasm.org/fitness/fast-t...vs-slow-twitch
Last edited by seypat; 05-01-21 at 07:32 AM.
05-01-21, 11:31 AM
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I think conditioning well enough to avoid cramp vs. be a "champ" are likely entirely different matters. Do you know of any research that indicates there's a genetic propensity for getting cramps? Honest question, I've never come across anything like that.
What I like aboutMoAlpha post is that he's very clear that this is an as-yet unproven theory and that he's pointing to a couple of remedies that "might" work that have the decided advantage of being harmless. Like I said above, my concern with these threads comes in when people start advocating non-food electrolyte supplementation, which won't affect cramping and really could make a person sick, likely not seriously, but who needs diarrhea,etc.?
What I like aboutMoAlpha post is that he's very clear that this is an as-yet unproven theory and that he's pointing to a couple of remedies that "might" work that have the decided advantage of being harmless. Like I said above, my concern with these threads comes in when people start advocating non-food electrolyte supplementation, which won't affect cramping and really could make a person sick, likely not seriously, but who needs diarrhea,etc.?
And getting too much electrolytes can make even a seasoned pro very sick, just ask these marathon runners:
05-01-21, 03:22 PM
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05-01-21, 05:10 PM
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Cycling, I've only gotten cramps in my calves and only when I'm fatigued, working hard, and then increase my pace. My calf buckles and then cramps. Hasn't happened for a few years, though. I wasn't as fit as I am now (290 FTP vs. 230 FTP) and my weekly cycling volume is far higher (10 hrs. vs. 2 hrs.)
05-01-21, 08:02 PM
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I get cramps at night after some extra harder or longer ride. It would be like me that I don't drink enough while on the bike, or maybe even after the ride.
I cure it by getting up into upright walking position, if I manage it. Then the cramps go away and I carefully wander about for a bit, then carefully lie back down and can finish my sleep then.
All that drinking this or eating that, I think the trick here is that you walked, managed to walk to get it LOL It was that walking in upright position cured it, not the stuff you ingested.
I suspect the increased blood pressure in your lower limbs as you stand up does the trick. Also my new bike has the provision for two bottles, that might also help.
I cure it by getting up into upright walking position, if I manage it. Then the cramps go away and I carefully wander about for a bit, then carefully lie back down and can finish my sleep then.
All that drinking this or eating that, I think the trick here is that you walked, managed to walk to get it LOL It was that walking in upright position cured it, not the stuff you ingested.
I suspect the increased blood pressure in your lower limbs as you stand up does the trick. Also my new bike has the provision for two bottles, that might also help.
05-01-21, 08:25 PM
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Never cramped while riding.
Night when in bed and need to stretch the legs.
Big cramp in calf.
Jump Up and Stand on the leg.
Or Take 2 slips of Tonic Water w Quinine
Work Instantly
Night when in bed and need to stretch the legs.
Big cramp in calf.
Jump Up and Stand on the leg.
Or Take 2 slips of Tonic Water w Quinine
Work Instantly
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05-01-21, 08:29 PM
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51 years old and never had a leg cramp or any type of leg pain from cycling.
05-02-21, 04:49 AM
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I think you misunderstood my post. There is no genetic propensity for getting cramps that I know of. However, the genetic makeup of your muscle fibers will be a determining factor in how soon/frequently those cramps will show up.
Edit: After thinking about it, I guess there might be a genetic propensity for getting cramps. If you're trying to do a physical endeavor that those genes your parents passed on to you are not suited for, you're probably going to struggle.
https://blog.nasm.org/fitness/fast-t...vs-slow-twitch
Edit: After thinking about it, I guess there might be a genetic propensity for getting cramps. If you're trying to do a physical endeavor that those genes your parents passed on to you are not suited for, you're probably going to struggle.
https://blog.nasm.org/fitness/fast-t...vs-slow-twitch
Sorry, but you're going out on a limb here that I don't think the science can support. Cramps are "associated" with muscle fatigue. They aren't an inevitable consequence of nor are they limited to fatigue situations . I guess you're saying that what constitutes your maximum achievable benefits from training is genetically determined, but that has next to nothing to do with cramps even if it is true.
05-02-21, 06:48 AM
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I rarely cramp. Funny thing, I ate a banana before a couple of rides over the last year, I cramped on those rides.
I don't do a pre ride stretch, post ride stretch routine, no special supplements/drinks and rarely cramp. Rides have been 45-65 mile average in length. Maybe 2 cramps in the last year. Lousy bananas!
I don't do a pre ride stretch, post ride stretch routine, no special supplements/drinks and rarely cramp. Rides have been 45-65 mile average in length. Maybe 2 cramps in the last year. Lousy bananas!
05-02-21, 10:01 AM
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My cramping experience is that I have cramped a few times on long/difficult rides (four of them that I can recall). 2 of them were under conditions where dehydration/etc is totally ruled out (temps under 50). These cramps were all in the inner thigh area and the 'solution' is to completely straighten the cramping leg (which can be extremely difficult sometimes). If it is both legs and you are going uphill (where standing up without pedaling is impossible) you have like 2 seconds to unclip and get off. Flats or downhill just stand up for 30 seconds.
I have had identical cramps just sitting around the house, in the middle of the night, etc. I would guess that has happened maybe 50-100 times in the past 5 years. They are exactly the same as the ones that have showed up during long/difficult rides. I recall one in particular that was on a third consecutive rest day (and I recall that because 3 consecutive rest days are most unusual for me). It showed up while I was watching TV.
My sense is that these 'not exercise related cramps' are triggered by specific positions of the leg. I just feels that way. It is like there is some very specific angle of my leg that if you hit and hold it for a few seconds (like within 0.1 degrees or something), here comes the cramp. It just feels like that. I never get non-exercise cramps when I am anything other than totally still.
Just my personal experience.
dave
ps. I routinely do 100 minute rides in weather as hot as NC can throw at me and more often than not just don't bother drinking from my luke warm water bottles. I have never cramped as a result of that and I am a heavy sweating type (up to 4 pounds per hour). But 100 minutes is roughly the max that I would consider going without drinking.
I have had identical cramps just sitting around the house, in the middle of the night, etc. I would guess that has happened maybe 50-100 times in the past 5 years. They are exactly the same as the ones that have showed up during long/difficult rides. I recall one in particular that was on a third consecutive rest day (and I recall that because 3 consecutive rest days are most unusual for me). It showed up while I was watching TV.
My sense is that these 'not exercise related cramps' are triggered by specific positions of the leg. I just feels that way. It is like there is some very specific angle of my leg that if you hit and hold it for a few seconds (like within 0.1 degrees or something), here comes the cramp. It just feels like that. I never get non-exercise cramps when I am anything other than totally still.
Just my personal experience.
dave
ps. I routinely do 100 minute rides in weather as hot as NC can throw at me and more often than not just don't bother drinking from my luke warm water bottles. I have never cramped as a result of that and I am a heavy sweating type (up to 4 pounds per hour). But 100 minutes is roughly the max that I would consider going without drinking.
Last edited by DaveLeeNC; 05-02-21 at 01:17 PM.
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05-02-21, 10:31 AM
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My take on cramps? They are usually the lack of something. Sodium, potassium, etc. For a lot of us, once we eat that missing ingredient the cramp goes away fast. So, keep trying different things until you find what works and keep that item on hand. Now, you may be able to massage, stretch or otherwise tame that cramp, but still, see if you can find the missing nutrient so it doesn't happen in the first place.
I have had really good luck using the sports drink Vitalyte in my waterbottles. Cramps are very rare. (Sodium, potassium and glucose in a mix formulated for fast absorption.) It's been around 50 years and it works. Small budget company and they have never had the advertising power to compete. REI may stock it. (They don't sell a lot but some of the employees know how good it is and sometimes have enough say to keep it on the shelves.) Ordering directly from Vitalyte is quick and easy. (The name has evolved over the years. Gookinaid - Gookin was the founder and formulator, ERG, Hydralyte and probably others.)
I have had really good luck using the sports drink Vitalyte in my waterbottles. Cramps are very rare. (Sodium, potassium and glucose in a mix formulated for fast absorption.) It's been around 50 years and it works. Small budget company and they have never had the advertising power to compete. REI may stock it. (They don't sell a lot but some of the employees know how good it is and sometimes have enough say to keep it on the shelves.) Ordering directly from Vitalyte is quick and easy. (The name has evolved over the years. Gookinaid - Gookin was the founder and formulator, ERG, Hydralyte and probably others.)
05-02-21, 11:07 AM
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Camps are basically voodoo witchcraft anyway...which is why there's so many "cures" out there.
Some research, if you're so inclined.
Exercised-Associated Muscle Cramps = EAMC
Hydration likely not a factor:
Early studies, which did not directly measure hydration in workers and fireman experiencing cramps, treated study participants with fluids and electrolytes to manage muscle cramps. However, more recent studies, which have estimated measures of blood volume and plasma volume, do not support the hypothesis of a direct relationship between dehydration and EAMC.
Schwellnus, M.P., Derman, E.W., and Noakes, T.D. (1997). Aetology of skeletal muscle 'cramps' during exercise: A novel hypothesis. Journal of Sports Science, 15(3), 277-285.
https://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Extras7/CrampsFig1.gif
THE EFFECT OF 5% HYPOHYDRATION ON MUSCLE CRAMP THRESHOLD FREQUENCY (https://library.ndsu.edu/ir/bitstrea...=1&isAllowed=y)
More Hydration Research
Serum electrolyte concentrations and hydration status are not associated with exercise associated muscle cramping (EAMC) in distance runners (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1724901/)
"There are no clinically significant alterations in serum electrolyte concentrations and there is no alteration in hydration status in runners with EAMC participating in an ultra-distance race"
Review finds painfully few surefire treatments for muscle cramps (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-ne...le-cramps.html)
"There is no solid formal evidence that either drinking water (tonic or otherwise) or stretching, two frequently cited non-drug approaches to reducing muscle cramps, effectively counters them. Still, neither method is likely to cause much harm if practiced in moderation. Other muscle-cramp treatments reviewed in this study include vitamin B complex, calcium-channel blocking agents often prescribed for hypertension, and anti-epileptic drugs. But the investigators concluded that more research is needed to assess the efficacy of these alternatives. “The relative lack of data on many of these compounds came as a surprise."
Banananananana's
“People are often told by their mates ‘you need to eat bananas because you need potassium’. “For starters, bananas don’t have tons of potassium in them. And even if they had, that’s probably not going to be the likely scenario, because being deficient in potassium is quite a serious condition. “Ironically, it may cause cramps; potassium is the counterbalancing electrolyte to sodium in fluid balance. But most people aren’t walking round with a severe potassium deficiency, if they were they’d be hospitalized.”
The scientific evidence of a neuromuscular theory is mounting (Giuriato, G., Pedrinolla, A., Schena, F., and Venturelli, M. (2018). Muscle cramps: a comparison of the two-leading hypothesis. Journal of Electromyography and Kinesiology. 41: 89-95.). The research appears to show that in some incidences, fatigued muscle is unable to fully relax. This condition leads to the imbalance of excitatory signals in relation to inhibitory messages to the muscle. Thus, current research findings appear to suggest that the central origin theory is the primary mechanism responsible for the muscle cramp.
My wife has used pickle juice a few times to get over cramps, I've not found anything that works other than being in better "condition" seems to eliminate cramping in my case. The more hard efforts I've done "in training" the less cramping I experience when doing harder efforts outside.
Some research, if you're so inclined.
Exercised-Associated Muscle Cramps = EAMC
Hydration likely not a factor:
Early studies, which did not directly measure hydration in workers and fireman experiencing cramps, treated study participants with fluids and electrolytes to manage muscle cramps. However, more recent studies, which have estimated measures of blood volume and plasma volume, do not support the hypothesis of a direct relationship between dehydration and EAMC.
Schwellnus, M.P., Derman, E.W., and Noakes, T.D. (1997). Aetology of skeletal muscle 'cramps' during exercise: A novel hypothesis. Journal of Sports Science, 15(3), 277-285.
https://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Extras7/CrampsFig1.gif
THE EFFECT OF 5% HYPOHYDRATION ON MUSCLE CRAMP THRESHOLD FREQUENCY (https://library.ndsu.edu/ir/bitstrea...=1&isAllowed=y)
More Hydration Research
Serum electrolyte concentrations and hydration status are not associated with exercise associated muscle cramping (EAMC) in distance runners (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1724901/)
"There are no clinically significant alterations in serum electrolyte concentrations and there is no alteration in hydration status in runners with EAMC participating in an ultra-distance race"
Review finds painfully few surefire treatments for muscle cramps (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-ne...le-cramps.html)
"There is no solid formal evidence that either drinking water (tonic or otherwise) or stretching, two frequently cited non-drug approaches to reducing muscle cramps, effectively counters them. Still, neither method is likely to cause much harm if practiced in moderation. Other muscle-cramp treatments reviewed in this study include vitamin B complex, calcium-channel blocking agents often prescribed for hypertension, and anti-epileptic drugs. But the investigators concluded that more research is needed to assess the efficacy of these alternatives. “The relative lack of data on many of these compounds came as a surprise."
Banananananana's
“People are often told by their mates ‘you need to eat bananas because you need potassium’. “For starters, bananas don’t have tons of potassium in them. And even if they had, that’s probably not going to be the likely scenario, because being deficient in potassium is quite a serious condition. “Ironically, it may cause cramps; potassium is the counterbalancing electrolyte to sodium in fluid balance. But most people aren’t walking round with a severe potassium deficiency, if they were they’d be hospitalized.”
The scientific evidence of a neuromuscular theory is mounting (Giuriato, G., Pedrinolla, A., Schena, F., and Venturelli, M. (2018). Muscle cramps: a comparison of the two-leading hypothesis. Journal of Electromyography and Kinesiology. 41: 89-95.). The research appears to show that in some incidences, fatigued muscle is unable to fully relax. This condition leads to the imbalance of excitatory signals in relation to inhibitory messages to the muscle. Thus, current research findings appear to suggest that the central origin theory is the primary mechanism responsible for the muscle cramp.
My wife has used pickle juice a few times to get over cramps, I've not found anything that works other than being in better "condition" seems to eliminate cramping in my case. The more hard efforts I've done "in training" the less cramping I experience when doing harder efforts outside.
What the truth needs is some embellishment. First identify some mechanism people have heard of but don't have a clue how it works. Electrolytes or minerals are perfect. There must be a cure, and the cure needs to be in some household item. It needs to be applied in some unusual fashion. Finally, the cure must require slowing down or better yet getting off the bike, to allow the cramp to actually dissipate.
What's never going to play well is, we have theories but the mechanisms are not well understood, and there is no known curative. Pickle juice crushes that all day long.
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05-03-21, 11:53 AM
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It was not that you rode 'too far' but that you depleted your electrolytes.
05-03-21, 12:06 PM
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05-03-21, 01:56 PM
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[QUOTE=momoman;22035972]I’ve tried the Acupinch method for relieving cramps over the past 20 years........with 0% success. Maybe it’ll work for some of you.
/QUOTE]
I used to do this all the time and it seemed to work. I say "used to" because I actually haven't gotten too many leg cramps since I have been riding regularly (knock on wood).
/QUOTE]
I used to do this all the time and it seemed to work. I say "used to" because I actually haven't gotten too many leg cramps since I have been riding regularly (knock on wood).
05-03-21, 01:59 PM
#75
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Woke up at 5:30 this morning with a cramped calf muscle that was excrutiating. Felt like a solid lump in the calf.
Out of pure desperation I looked for pickles to try the pickle juice option - all I had was sauerkraut. Worked almost instantly much to my relief. The cramp was gone before I got back to bed
I'm guessing the magic is the vinegar: it's the common ingredient between pickle juice, sauerkraut juice and the mustard mentioned above.
Not sure if the magic is anything other than confusing the brain.
I don't even care - I'm just super happy that it worked, and worked so fast.
Out of pure desperation I looked for pickles to try the pickle juice option - all I had was sauerkraut. Worked almost instantly much to my relief. The cramp was gone before I got back to bed
I'm guessing the magic is the vinegar: it's the common ingredient between pickle juice, sauerkraut juice and the mustard mentioned above.
Not sure if the magic is anything other than confusing the brain.
I don't even care - I'm just super happy that it worked, and worked so fast.
I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that it's the "trudging" that actually does the trick.
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