The seat forward on old road-bikes thread....
#151
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More real science supporting our old heavy road bikes; https://www.velonews.com/gear/bike-w...th-fast-bikes/
I do note that in any one gear my 50 year old race bikes are nearly as effective. They will be less "aero" than a bike with a tuned tire and rim set, but that's ok.
when the road tilts up, having a 5-7 lb weight penalty is a difference but psychologically an advantage. The aero advantage diminishes.
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#152
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That you believe there is an "ideal crank length" shows what you have to say is not based on scientific research and data but on old wives tales. For decades researchers have shown that crank length has made no difference in power, it is simply a matter of personal taste. You also apparently know little about what affects the steering qualities of a two-wheeled vehicle. The major specifications which make a two-wheeled vehicle steer very quickly or "twitchy" or which make it steer very slowly or stable are head angle and what is called Trail, which is the distance from the front tires contact patch on the road to a spot on the road found with an imaginary line through the center of the steering head. Stem length does not alter either of these two specifications. In the late 1990s Gary Fisher introduced "Genesis" frames for mountainbikes which had very short stems and longer top-tubes to make up the difference, but it was to make the off-road riding safer by moving the rider's weight back so they would be less likely to flip the bike over going downhills while breaking or going over obstacles, makes sense, but is not an issue on a road bike.
All moving the seat forward on an old low-end road-bike frame with relaxed seat-tube and head angles is doing is giving a steeper effective seat-tube angle closer to that of a racing bike frame, and if a rider needs to put a shorter or longer stem on any old road bike to make it suit their personal tastes and comfort, that comfort will be what improves performance more than anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi96XtZ1M00
All moving the seat forward on an old low-end road-bike frame with relaxed seat-tube and head angles is doing is giving a steeper effective seat-tube angle closer to that of a racing bike frame, and if a rider needs to put a shorter or longer stem on any old road bike to make it suit their personal tastes and comfort, that comfort will be what improves performance more than anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi96XtZ1M00
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#153
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More real science supporting our old heavy road bikes; https://www.velonews.com/gear/bike-w...th-fast-bikes/
A few questions: who's the "our" of "our heavy road bikes?" Does that lump together riders of 34-pound Huffys with the likes of the riders of PX-10s, Pinarellos, Colnagos, etc. who also actively participate in this thread? Wouldn't a 7.5 second difference at the top of a similar climb matter a whole lot to some of the participants in this thread on certain kinds of group rides? For them, wouldn't the difference between their bikes and a 34-pound department store bike be critical, not inconsequential?
If you get satisfaction from "blowing off" riders with lighter equipment or who experience benefit from pedal straps, clip-ins, etc. aren't you simply congratulating yourself for the strength and power it must take to do that, under the cover of disparaging reasons why many people value classic/vintage European-style bikes and lore?
Last edited by chip.hedler; 06-14-22 at 09:55 AM.
#154
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...The major specifications which make a two-wheeled vehicle steer very quickly or "twitchy" or which make it steer very slowly or stable are head angle and what is called Trail, which is the distance from the front tires contact patch on the road to a spot on the road found with an imaginary line through the center of the steering head. Stem length does not alter either of these two specifications. In the late 1990s Gary Fisher introduced "Genesis" frames for mountainbikes which had very short stems and longer top-tubes to make up the difference, but it was to make the off-road riding safer by moving the rider's weight back so they would be less likely to flip the bike over going downhills while breaking or going over obstacles, makes sense, but is not an issue on a road bike.
All moving the seat forward on an old low-end road-bike frame with relaxed seat-tube and head angles is doing is giving a steeper effective seat-tube angle closer to that of a racing bike frame, and if a rider needs to put a shorter or longer stem on any old road bike to make it suit their personal tastes and comfort, that comfort will be what improves performance more than anything.
...
All moving the seat forward on an old low-end road-bike frame with relaxed seat-tube and head angles is doing is giving a steeper effective seat-tube angle closer to that of a racing bike frame, and if a rider needs to put a shorter or longer stem on any old road bike to make it suit their personal tastes and comfort, that comfort will be what improves performance more than anything.
...
Today's mtbs put even less of their weight bias on the front wheel, because the head tube angle has been kicked way out.
Their "generous" rake and trail figures are thus offset by the non-linear "power steering" effect of what is known as steering flop or "flop factor" (caused by the slack head tube angle).
Even a cyclocross frame's more-modestly slackened head tube angle exhibits the same sort of non-linear steering response, and a longer stem length seems to interact poorly with such geometry to the extent that it isn't compensated by a wider handlebar and/or longer overall cockpit.
I think that the point that you missed about stem length is that it affects the front/rear weight bias, which also can have a quite-noticeable affect on steering "stability".
Any combination of frameset and rider will thus have a "window" of best stem length which interacts with the dimensions of the rider and bike to allow the bike's steering response to seem "neutral" to a variety of riding modes, whether descending at speed or climbing/sprinting with the rider off of the saddle.
It's really not as simple as "rake and trail", with the stem length and bar width also affecting the way that the rider's upper body mass is applied about the steering axis and how the bar's width affects the amount of steering force through the rider's hands that is needed to control the bike's steering.
Sometimes it's useful to move a bit out of the normal range of the above-mentioned dimensional variables to more-conclusively test what happens as the stem length is changed and as the frame's geometry changes.
I've re-built and ridden some hundreds of road and mountain bikes having a wide range of fit/geometry parameters, and have often tested different stem length and bar width options along the way. I feel that I can safely say that the needed stem length is a significant parameter in terms of how the fitted bike handles.
In the realm of road racing bikes, and road bikes in general, the position of the handlebar relative to the front wheel is further significant in how this affects the rider's ability to safely draft the rider that they are following (without touching tires). It's yet one more way that an "optimal" stem length can be part of the whole geometry and fit of the bike and rider.
Fortunately, on the bikes where I have used a "forward" saddle adjustment to compensate for size/geometry considerations that my body size required, the added stem length did not result in a very long stem relative to the front wheel's positioning, so with perhaps only an additional tweak to the bar's width, I was feeling comfortable and stable while riding through our ever-undulating and curvy roads here in the foothills.
My last words on this are that the rider's acclimatization to any new setup can take some time of riding, before accurate conclusions should be drawn (and with other bikes rotated through one's riding schedule over that length of time). Some geometry/fit variations can be adapted to even in the context of riding other bikes on alternate days, but some will not and the stem length can be a big part of the issue.
Last edited by dddd; 06-14-22 at 10:12 AM.
#155
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Fuji with seat fully forward is working fantastically. It was the only bike I rode last week. There were five fast-paced rides on five different days in the 20 to 30 mile range, and there was no discomfort on any of the rides for any part of my body.
I would like to try a steering stem that would lower the handlebars an inch, as I think it would make riding on the drops easier as it is on the Huffy with it's shorter steering-head tube, but the more i rode the Fuji the better it felt.
One nice thing about the Fuji is that by luck it's ninth gear is a 50/17 combination, which is a better fit for me than the Huffy's 52/17. I can stay in the Fuji's ninth gear as long as there is no steeper grade or bad headwind, where I just do not have the fitness to use the Huffy's ninth gear. I plan on putting a freewheel in the Huffy which has an 18-tooth eighth gear cog, which I am hoping will be just right for the time trial coming up in about three weeks.
I would like to try a steering stem that would lower the handlebars an inch, as I think it would make riding on the drops easier as it is on the Huffy with it's shorter steering-head tube, but the more i rode the Fuji the better it felt.
One nice thing about the Fuji is that by luck it's ninth gear is a 50/17 combination, which is a better fit for me than the Huffy's 52/17. I can stay in the Fuji's ninth gear as long as there is no steeper grade or bad headwind, where I just do not have the fitness to use the Huffy's ninth gear. I plan on putting a freewheel in the Huffy which has an 18-tooth eighth gear cog, which I am hoping will be just right for the time trial coming up in about three weeks.
#156
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Finally got back on the Huffy this morning after it had been down with a broken rear spoke. Took the opportunity to put some tires on it I had hanging in the garage, also put it's original smaller rear chainguard on, and put it's original seat back on, all the way forward of course. Original seat is more compact than the one I have been using on the bike, and I thought it might give some freedom and extra speed to my thighs. Also was able to add a bottle-cage I found hanging in the garage a few weeks ago. So I don't have to use a messenger bag to carry water and may gain some aero advantage.
Bike must have been endoed once, as the fork is tweaked a little maybe and the seat rails were badly bent and there is some damage to the upholstery,, luckily not where it is critical for padding. I discovered a method for straightening bent seat-rails out using two smaller size monkey-wrenches. Seat is a metal-pan Parson's, a famous well-known maker of quality bicycle seats. Padding is surprisingly plush, but it does creak a lot, will try some lube where the seat-rails mount to the bottom of the pan.
With the different tires the handling of the bike was amazingly transformed from diabolical to Norton-Manx. Maybe the old tires being worn flat in the middle gave them a shape that did not work with the frame geometry, they did seem to be fast though.
I Armor-All'ed the seat right before the ride this morning, it may have made the slick hard-vinyl cover even more slick, I may rotate the seat one-click backwards just as an experiment.
Bike performed like a champ on the ride, unfortunately I am fighting a bad head cold and historically this cuts a mph or more off my top speed, also I ran off the road once on a turn of my usual 12.5 mile test circuit, I did not go down as I kept my head and rode it out across a dirt curb into some rough grass, then was able to turn back and loft the front wheel back onto the pavement and continue. So considering all that I was happy with the 18.4mph average, hopefully I will be fully recovered from this virus and back in form by the July 9th time-trial.
Bike must have been endoed once, as the fork is tweaked a little maybe and the seat rails were badly bent and there is some damage to the upholstery,, luckily not where it is critical for padding. I discovered a method for straightening bent seat-rails out using two smaller size monkey-wrenches. Seat is a metal-pan Parson's, a famous well-known maker of quality bicycle seats. Padding is surprisingly plush, but it does creak a lot, will try some lube where the seat-rails mount to the bottom of the pan.
With the different tires the handling of the bike was amazingly transformed from diabolical to Norton-Manx. Maybe the old tires being worn flat in the middle gave them a shape that did not work with the frame geometry, they did seem to be fast though.
I Armor-All'ed the seat right before the ride this morning, it may have made the slick hard-vinyl cover even more slick, I may rotate the seat one-click backwards just as an experiment.
Bike performed like a champ on the ride, unfortunately I am fighting a bad head cold and historically this cuts a mph or more off my top speed, also I ran off the road once on a turn of my usual 12.5 mile test circuit, I did not go down as I kept my head and rode it out across a dirt curb into some rough grass, then was able to turn back and loft the front wheel back onto the pavement and continue. So considering all that I was happy with the 18.4mph average, hopefully I will be fully recovered from this virus and back in form by the July 9th time-trial.
Last edited by beng1; 06-20-22 at 08:39 AM.
#157
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My own experience with the virus is that it can weaken a person somewhat and I'm still coming back. How will you decide whether to ride the Fuji or the Huffy?
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#158
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The Huffy has always been the top choice because it is easier to ride in an aero position, lower head-tube. Virus is just a cold, my wife had it for a week and is fine, now it is my turn for a few days. It just cuts into riding because if you do to much you don't recover as fast maybe, if you do too little your wind and muscle goes away.
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Latest research. Dragged the 1987 Schwinn SuperSport out of the basement, where it has been mounted on a Cyclops-trainer the last few years. Took it for a ride on the same route I frequent with the Huffy. Notice the SuperSport's steep seat and head-tube angles compared to the Huffy's. Top tube of SuperSport is also longer and stem is also longer, it is a long reach from the SS seat to handlebars. Seat is most all the way forward on the SS, may be able to get another 1/8" to 3/16" and it does not look like it's alloy post could be reversed. Notice how the seat being far forward on the Huffy gives it the same effective seat-post angle as the SuperSport's. Supersport frame is a 25", Huffy is about 24", but SuperSport bottom-bracket is closer to ground and it has longer pedal-cranks, so there is not much more that could be different about it.
In fair, not perfect weather as far as wind is concerned, my time over 12 miles on the SuperSport was the same as my best time on the Huffy over the same route within about ten seconds. I think the SuperSport might be close to ten pounds lighter than the Huffy, it is double-butted Columbus tubing, but since the route was very flat it would not make a difference. Handlebars are wider on the SS by 2 1/4", so it felt awkward and is probably less aerodynamic. Odd they would put such wide bars, about 17 1/4" wide overall, on a "performance" bike. Seemed I could pull a tooth smaller cog on the rear with the SS, a 52/17 when the wind was right, compared to a 52/18 on the Huffy in the same conditions, but I think the 700c wheels on the SS are smaller diameter than the Huffy's 27" wheels, so that makes sense.
If I was going to try and race the SS I would definitely want bars on it that were 2" narrower at least, and a stem that was an inch shorter and maybe angled down to get the bars lower and back towards the seat.
In fair, not perfect weather as far as wind is concerned, my time over 12 miles on the SuperSport was the same as my best time on the Huffy over the same route within about ten seconds. I think the SuperSport might be close to ten pounds lighter than the Huffy, it is double-butted Columbus tubing, but since the route was very flat it would not make a difference. Handlebars are wider on the SS by 2 1/4", so it felt awkward and is probably less aerodynamic. Odd they would put such wide bars, about 17 1/4" wide overall, on a "performance" bike. Seemed I could pull a tooth smaller cog on the rear with the SS, a 52/17 when the wind was right, compared to a 52/18 on the Huffy in the same conditions, but I think the 700c wheels on the SS are smaller diameter than the Huffy's 27" wheels, so that makes sense.
If I was going to try and race the SS I would definitely want bars on it that were 2" narrower at least, and a stem that was an inch shorter and maybe angled down to get the bars lower and back towards the seat.
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How is it that the SS is on the trainer while you make adjustments to and ride the Huffy? A swap is in order, and then get the SS to match the riding position you like. Then you can enjoy the nicer components too. I am newer to nicer steel, but I have found that the right frame geometry and steel can sort of speak to you and really add to the enjoyment of the ride. If there wasn’t really anything “there”, people wouldn’t spend the bucks on higher end bikes. The SS deserves to be ridden, and by the sounds of what you can physically do with the Huffy, the right setup on the SS will really rock for you.
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Maybe someday if I can get some narrow bars and a shorter stem on the SS I will ride it more. Right now the Huffy is set up so it fits like a glove, so I am hoping it will hold together for the 12-mile TT Saturday morning without breaking a spoke or something. Huffy was bought from original owner at a Garage sale for $3. I think it has a good shot at averaging around 19mph at the TT. Too bad the me from 25 years ago can't show up and ride it, maybe next year with a little luck.
The SS is the best bike for the basement Cyclops trainer because it is the easiest to carry up and down stairs, it's only real advantage over my other bikes.
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I do disagree on higher level bikes. First confession is I really appreciate fine mechanical things. I do agree about your assessment of a BMW vs a Toyota. I drive Toyota exclusively. That said, in 1987 I bought a used 1977 BMW R100/7 motorcycle and rode it for 28 years. It was durable and well made. When I did work on it, i was always impressed by the quality.
Bicycles are simple machines, but the quality shows on nicely made ones. Used vintage quality isn’t really that expensive. It is just a pleasant experience putting a wrench on a vintage Miyata or other quality bike, even mass produced ones. Stamped dropouts with the stays tack welded in will work and maybe even work well. Cheaper components can work very well too. Most here however seem to really enjoy the quality of the better machines, and that is a big reason for purchase.
In a general functioning way, there may not be loads of difference in all applications. Your Huffy does what you ask of it for your application. Others pay a bit extra with the hope of extracting their best from the machine and not wondering if it was holding them back. I think that knowledge of superior mechanical components and manufacture are the most important thing to most here. Pride, snobbery maybe, but that is what hobbies do to us.
Bicycles are simple machines, but the quality shows on nicely made ones. Used vintage quality isn’t really that expensive. It is just a pleasant experience putting a wrench on a vintage Miyata or other quality bike, even mass produced ones. Stamped dropouts with the stays tack welded in will work and maybe even work well. Cheaper components can work very well too. Most here however seem to really enjoy the quality of the better machines, and that is a big reason for purchase.
In a general functioning way, there may not be loads of difference in all applications. Your Huffy does what you ask of it for your application. Others pay a bit extra with the hope of extracting their best from the machine and not wondering if it was holding them back. I think that knowledge of superior mechanical components and manufacture are the most important thing to most here. Pride, snobbery maybe, but that is what hobbies do to us.
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BMW motorcycle company split off the BMW auto company many decades ago, probably before WWII, so they don't have much to do with each other. I always rode British motorcycles because my old man was a dealer/racer of them in the 50s/60s, and they are the worst machines in history sold to the public. If you can keep a garbage British motorcycle rideable or competitive, then you can do anything.
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About half way through this, I was wondering if Grant Peterson has enough free time to troll on the forums?
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#169
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Wow! What a thread!
I took a peak with my morning coffee today and like a terrible train crash, I was disgusted by what I saw, but simply could not turn away. Thanks for the morning entertainment!
I guess today is the day of reckoning? The time trial! Eagerly awaiting results.
I took a peak with my morning coffee today and like a terrible train crash, I was disgusted by what I saw, but simply could not turn away. Thanks for the morning entertainment!
I guess today is the day of reckoning? The time trial! Eagerly awaiting results.
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It’s shocking that someone participating on a bike forum could make such an Ill-informed statement. But I guess maybe not if a Huffy is your bike of choice and you drink vodka retrieved from the bottom of a dumpster.
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Well, the time-trial went about exactly as I thought it would. The Huffy did not break, and turned a 19.5mph average over the 12 miles. Not much to say, it was like any other race, if a few things had gone better I may have got close to 20mph, but if some other things like wind would have been different I could have gone slower. So it all averaged out and no complaints. I am pretty sure on a loop-style course with less hills the bike could have gone 20mph though. The bike felt great, I can't imagine what I could change to make it feel any better. It might be nice to try it with the bars dropped lower, but unless I can find a stem that slants down sharply I don't think the bars can go lower. I do think that if I continue training I can get faster, as long as I don't have any more heart problems or crashes, I have not even done any real interval or weight training. I do have a few other Huffy ten-speed parts bikes I have cut up and am planning to weld back together into a "funny bike" configuration, that might help a little with aerodynamics and power and be worth a bit more speed.
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If you get satisfaction from "blowing off" riders with lighter equipment or who experience benefit from pedal straps, clip-ins, etc. aren't you simply congratulating yourself for the strength and power it must take to do that, under the cover of disparaging reasons why many people value classic/vintage European-style bikes and lore?
Last edited by beng1; 07-11-22 at 03:48 AM.
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Is there no shame? What happened to shame? Oh, how I yearn for the old days of shame.